Rebalancing and Redesigning Red mage (Suggestion)

BLU just had more time to be designed better lol.

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Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

When I played FF1 RDM's Melee felt a lot better than in FFXI.

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Probably because you weren't seriously comparing the difference between Black Belt/Warrior's Melee and Red Mage's Melee. Relatively, FFXI Red Mage is way better off. It's just that no one wants to invite a mage so that they can melee. If they want someone to melee and deal damage, they can invite a Damage Dealer. If they invite a mage, they expect spells.

Never going to change.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Except that even in FF1, the Red Mage's melee damage was paltry in comparison to the Black Belt and Fighter once you're about halfway through the game.

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But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteKarma

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

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Yes. As a Mage. Could it melee in FF1? Sure. If FFXI was turn-based and single-player, Red Mage might melee here too. Unfortunately, it's not. The opportunity cost to melee on anything difficult in a real-time game is far too great.

Also, if Red Mage had Staves or Wands that enhanced its abilities as well as a gear-swap system in FF1 it may not have melee'd at all.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteKarma

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

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By this i mean you could stack damage with other jobs you werent subject to staying 1 catagory all the time and thats what FFXI is trying to do.

(FFI) However in the case that FF1 RDM still proved better in different cases when i played i would keep RDM and WHM on the field because if the WHM was taged out the RDM assumes the roles and would raise the healer if it came down to it.

(FFXI) In the past RDM and WHM was a GREAT combo in parties rdm was a side spot support while healer would focus on heals im not saying that i should stand in the back but you should understand that in between that time RDM could do as he pleased while in the front line view untill the WHM was taged out it kind of was like the bard of the group but not really a buff and enhancer to make something FULL speciality out of a hybrid class seems stupid RDM should show how to offer its support from both the front and back of the group its suppose to alternate.

I see that it can be a hard concept to understand. to everyone who wants to have that job thats suppose to do their job right. parties look for speciality jobs like BLM and WHM who do what they are intended to do. RDMs catagory of expertise is enfeeble and while everything in abyssea is immune it makes us look like a joke thats not fair at all a normal rotation of fighting for RDM should be: frontline, enfeeble, enhance, Assume healer role (bad case scenario) if healer dies in combat FFXI image of RDM is not at all what a RDM should be pared up to i feel it might as well just be a solo class if parties images of RDM dont change. You cannot changes someones perspective of RDM this late into the game now unless SE tweaks it back to normal and people learn to replay it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Yes. As a Mage. Could it melee in FF1? Sure. If FFXI was turn-based and single-player, Red Mage might melee here too. Unfortunately, it's not. The opportunity cost to melee on anything difficult in a real-time game is far too great.

Also, if Red Mage had Staves or Wands that enhanced its abilities as well as a gear-swap system in FF1 it may not have melee'd at all.

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RDM doesnt excel in anything and i cannot say that having a staff is a bad thing however i think gearswaping is a great thing proposed that earlier i said that if a WHM dies RDM assumes the role of healer correct? Gearswap for the stats and convert the MP loss of your previous position as a melee/blackmagic/enfeeble now you just switched to Main healer RDMs dont need the Skill for staffs they need the stats. they should always be 1 under the main Pros of DD, healer,Nuke,and buff enfeebles however should land on everything for a RDM thats what irriates me though.

In my Opinion people have Hybrid the Hybrid class they focus to much on speciality of it(get it?) it was never intended to FOCUS on 1 aspect of the party full time everytime. The job should alternate during dire times thats what I THINK RDM CLASS SHOULD BE. and it makes sense thats why its setup the way it is. i dont think our melee should jolt up i think we need a nother set of tier enspells to increase it slightly and as i saw earlier status effects seems like a F***king awesome idea with the loss of low damage i think we can substite that.

We also need better cures we cannot keep on par with the healer so theres no use in ANY of what i just said if we cannot jump to the back if healer dies. I am not saying we should be better healers i am saying we should be there if the problem arises (remember 1 below PRO) makes no sense if we try to help healer when the mob is out damaging your heals and everyone dies anyway.

you forgot to have them raise RDM shield skill and give more enhancing spells as it has the highest enhancing skill

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Originally Posted by InfiniteKarma

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

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And even in FF5, Red Mages' melee damage pales in comparison to like the dozen other Job options that are more melee-focused.

Also: If RDM ever got even billing to where they could heal on par with WHM, melee on par with (I dunno, not the best example but...) PLD, and nuke on par with BLM...

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

A job like RDM by its very design HAS to be worse at everything than a more dedicated job. :\

Procs (for at least 2 events). And it doesn't have to be worse at everything, it was and still is the best enfeebler next to Brd (who can only keep 2 debuffs on a mob up at once not counting from subjob) - the problem is the amount of NMs which are heavily resistant/immune to our common enfeebles, and the increasing amount of NMs where enfeebles don't matter because all of their attacks are unnamed TP moves.

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Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

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Different job traits, job abilities, spells, skills, weapon/WS access, and gear more finely tuned to the prior. The Abyssea and Voidwatch proc systems are also another point to why you'd best flesh out your party roster. Regardless, being a "jack" in the MMO world is basically a death sentence for the very reason people try to justify them being not as good. It's no coincidence that the aspect of the job RDM got most shoehorned into technically required no gear to perform passably in the old days. Haste and Refresh were just as potent from a naked 48 RDM as it was the pimpest of 75s. And while we've seen more Cure Potency gear recently, you didn't need to keep the skill up to date and it's not like party members resist it. The job also hit the point where Slow and Para didn't matter because mobs died to fast, and the desired enfeeble, Dia, would always land anyway.

The hypothetically feared doomsday superman RDM can never exist as long as MP is finite and casting/melee aren't so mechanically opposite one another. The ideal should be that with the proper gear, sub, buffs, and food, the truly versatile RDM could step up as their party needs in an acceptable manner. At present, however, things are skewed heavily toward the job's magical aspects. Some are fine with that. Some will argue tooth and nail, belittling those who aren't. Some feel RDM should be a specialist, particularly of the enfeebling variety, but again you'll find those who feel melee integration has no place in that prospect because another job does X (and better!) even though it could yield appropriately powerful debuffs for the added risk. Some try to rationalize dev attention is limited, and that anything not fitting their agenda is a waste, but while things may be spread thin trying to give 20 jobs a little something throughout the cap increases (some definitely getting more than others), that doesn't mean job updates suddenly stop once we hit 99.

In general, people wishing for a more themely, versatile RDM isn't a new development. This isn't 75 anymore and part of the reasons against giving the job attention back then aren't much of a factor anymore. Healing? WHM's unquestionably better and could sub Refresh/Convert if they truly need it. Soloing? Behold numerous other jobs soloing things in Abyssea, or are more mechanically prohibiting like Voidwatch (and the inability to exploit pinning thanks to fight zone limitations). Nuking? Well, BLM and SCH are better by virtue of tiers alone and took advantage of the same exploits in their own solo endeavors. Relative to BLU, RDM can be similar, but still different, just as MNK and WAR are DDs of their own flavor. Not exactly close right now, however, and BLU will be pulling even farther ahead this update. Don't let the DD only types fool you, BLU rocks some solid utility potential.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

And even in FF5, Red Mages' melee damage pales in comparison to like the dozen other Job options that are more melee-focused.

Also: If RDM ever got even billing to where they could heal on par with WHM, melee on par with (I dunno, not the best example but...) PLD, and nuke on par with BLM...

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

A job like RDM by its very design HAS to be worse at everything than a more dedicated job. :\

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Because they are Better at what they do(RDM isn't suppose to be better at something or even level[even tho i said on par] its suppose to be slightly below but not far under where its useless] for example:

Random heal example
Cure ??? (both using same spell)
Potency of classes As follows:
Target of healings hp is: 1000
WHM heals for: 700
RDM heals for:450

Mob hits for: 300
Mob hits for:250

Notice how mob hits slightly under the RDM heals but has a consistency. While WHM is the better healer rdm can still step in JUST enough to keep them alive hes not taken the job away from the WHM. WHM still proves that his spot in PT is important anyone would want someone healing for 700 over 450.

I mean you don't see it the way i do and i am not sure if i could explain it any better but if people played RDM the way i explained i don't see why NOT to have one in a party its not about who does better in this case its who can cover the more GROUND and RDM definitely excels in this aspect of the job its not suppose to be better it never will be but what it loses in damage output and cure output it makes up in the sore areas of the PT i would call it the safety of the PT.

Bad case scenario:
When you have people who specialize in a job field and they are KO'd no one is going to cover down on them during a crisis(You just lost your primary expert in that field) that could be fatal in certain situations. BLM, WHM, DD, any of these KO'd in battle and you never had a rdm in the pt the party just lost major ground rdm can fill the slots temporary.

i cant see why not to have one and i am having a hard time understanding why you wouldn't either.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteKarma

Bad case scenario:
When you have people who specialize in a job field and they are KO'd no one is going to cover down on them during a crisis(You just lost your primary expert in that field) that could be fatal in certain situations. BLM, WHM, DD, any of these KO'd in battle and you never had a rdm in the pt the party just lost major ground rdm can fill the slots temporary.

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Are you talking about EXP parties or a significant event relevant to today? If this is an Abyssea EXP party, by all means the RDM can step in and swing it's sword with all it's heart. No one cares. I'm not letting my RDM (especially if I'm the RDM) poke at VW NMs when it can fill a much more important role: do it's freaking job!

Think about it like this: We can compare 3 jobs here: RDM, WAR, and BLM. Assume that all physical and magical skills were all in one big mess of a category, that means elemental skill is right next to your dagger skill or whatever (the point is let's ignore the fact that they are physical/magical). A WAR has several weapons to choose from, so why, barring procing situations, does it solely prefer to use a great axe? BLM has many magical capabilities and even has dagger and scythe skills, but typically only utilizes elemental magic (omg no way!). They have enhancing skill, but you don't see them buffing anyone but themselves when they need to. For that matter, why doesn't a MNK DD with a staff? A RDM has sword and dagger skills available to them, does that mean they should utilize this function in any portion of the game that actually matters? Take a moment to think about what I'm going to say... WAR and BLM use their respective skills because they excel at them the most. A RDM's specialty is Enhancing and Enfeebling. While I see that Joyeuse collecting dust in my mog house, I'm never tempted to grab it because I keep myself busy constantly covering the job that I was gifted with. RDM covers the Hasting, the Refreshing, and yes, I still cast Phalanx 2 on the tanks and sometimes DD because my Enhancing skill far exceeds that of every PLD I have ever met by at least 100 levels. I do all the debuffing that allow my party to fight with greater ease. That's the role of a RDM. They make everyone's lives easier. Whether or not some people will recognize it is up to them, and quite frankly they can rot for all I care.

Not everything is immune to RDM, in fact I know this because my NIN sticks debuffs on Abyssean NMs frequently. If NIN can do that, RDM can do that much better.

Just remember this: Every time a RDM picks up a sword, a small child is spontaneously killed by the baby shaking fairy.

I actually like the OP.

I kill babies every other day then.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

That's what I was thinking aswell.

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I was thinking the same.

I lmfao at your sig Rearden.

Thread derailer.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

Are you talking about EXP parties or a significant event relevant to today? If this is an Abyssea EXP party, by all means the RDM can step in and swing it's sword with all it's heart. No one cares. I'm not letting my RDM (especially if I'm the RDM) poke at VW NMs when it can fill a much more important role: do it's freaking job!
Think about it like this: We can compare 3 jobs here: RDM, WAR, and BLM. Assume that all physical and magical skills were all in one big mess of a category, that means elemental skill is right next to your dagger skill or whatever (the point is let's ignore the fact that they are physical/magical). A WAR has several weapons to choose from, so why, barring procing situations, does it solely prefer to use a great axe? BLM has many magical capabilities and even has dagger and scythe skills, but typically only utilizes elemental magic (omg no way!). They have enhancing skill, but you don't see them buffing anyone but themselves when they need to. For that matter, why doesn't a MNK DD with a staff? A RDM has sword and dagger skills available to them, does that mean they should utilize this function in any portion of the game that actually matters? Take a moment to think about what I'm going to say... WAR and BLM use their respective skills because they excel at them the most. A RDM's specialty is Enhancing and Enfeebling. While I see that Joyeuse collecting dust in my mog house, I'm never tempted to grab it because I keep myself busy constantly covering the job that I was gifted with. RDM covers the Hasting, the Refreshing, and yes, I still cast Phalanx 2 on the tanks and sometimes DD because my Enhancing skill far exceeds that of every PLD I have ever met by at least 100 levels. I do all the debuffing that allow my party to fight with greater ease. That's the role of a RDM. They make everyone's lives easier. Whether or not some people will recognize it is up to them, and quite frankly they can rot for all I care.Not everything is immune to RDM, in fact I know this because my NIN sticks debuffs on Abyssean NMs frequently. If NIN can do that, RDM can do that much better.

Just remember this: Every time a RDM picks up a sword, a small child is spontaneously killed by the baby shaking fairy.

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We make this a part of our job its not our priority though. You are one of people that sees RDMs by the image the game has them labeled on them you want them to specialize in something so you grab a staff and expect to think its a better idea then for this i propose you use WHM/RDM. You are now doing what you described and are expected to pick up a staff nothings changed but now you can rest assure that generally the idea is in the right jobs position. or you can try bard whichever.

This is not its job this its not its function (this doesnt mean dont do what he said) what you are doing is your giving it a one spot purpose it doesnt need to be that way if thats how you play it by all means do so. You just turned a Hybrid class into a Bard or a WHM now threads are going to contain "we need stronger spells in the enhancement department and healing department so we can compete with whms!"

Jack of all trades not grab a staff and do what the general public wants us to do develop your own playstyle.

@Harukasan

But i see what your saying i think your biggest mistake is your comparing them.

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Originally Posted by Harukusan

Just remember this: Every time a RDM picks up a sword, a small child is spontaneously killed by the baby shaking fairy.

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This is actually an incentive to start meleeing.

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

And even in FF5, Red Mages' melee damage pales in comparison to like the dozen other Job options that are more melee-focused.

Also: If RDM ever got even billing to where they could heal on par with WHM, melee on par with (I dunno, not the best example but...) PLD, and nuke on par with BLM...

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

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PLD for Tanking mobs that can't be blink-tanked, BLMs for -Ga, and WHM for AoE Healing. It wasn't exactly implied those specifics were going to RDM now, was it?

If we're going to go that route, how about we just slap RDM with Tier 5 single-target nukes, a healing spell that isn't Cure 5 but can help just as much, and A- Sword Skill with a respectable selection of Light-Armor Melee Gear (DAMN i'd love to see RDM in Loki's)? In essence, RDM in this perspective would show that it does everything, but it has nothing to overpower certain jobs with. Jack of all Trades, master of nothing.

as long as blu exists you KNOW rdm is never getting the A- it needs

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

the increasing amount of NMs where enfeebles don't matter because all of their attacks are unnamed TP moves.

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This is actually a huge concern of mine and needs to go away.

@gokku I assume you mean A+ and equal str/dex formula as 2h jobs use right? Cause 2h jobs having default ~60 acc/attk more than 1h's is INSANELY dumb. I don't agree with buffing lolmeleerdm though.

more like 20-35 but yeah

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

This is actually a huge concern of mine and needs to go away.

@gokku I assume you mean A+ and equal str/dex formula as 2h jobs use right? Cause 2h jobs having default ~60 acc/attk more than 1h's is INSANELY dumb. I don't agree with buffing lolmeleerdm though.

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rdms have a B , at most they will get a boost to B+. blus have a A- they arent going to make red melee potential on the same level of blu's and thats were it needs to be skill wise to even have the ACC / ATK to really matter for levels 91-95 you gain 7 skill per level with any A ranked skill vs 5 for anything B. assuming that trend continues to 99 your looking at blu 417 base skill , Red 380 , 37 acc and atk difference is pretty big gap to cover without some major gear.

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Originally Posted by Gokku

rdms have a B , at most they will get a boost to B+. blus have a A- they arent going to make red melee potential on the same level of blu's and thats were it needs to be skill wise to even have the ACC / ATK to really matter for levels 91-95 you gain 7 skill per level with any A ranked skill vs 5 for anything B. assuming that trend continues to 99 your looking at blu 417 base skill , Red 380 , 37 acc and atk difference is pretty big gap to cover without some major gear.

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I wasn't arguing with you or anything, I was just saying all 1h jobs need to have the same base acc/attk as 2h.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Level58-Plague (Lowers MP and TP overtime)
Level79-Amnesia:Target Cannot use Abilities nor TP skills.

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If RDM ever did get an Amnesia spell, I'd think it would get its own name.

As for plague, there is a spell already used by mobs known as Virus.

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Originally Posted by Gokku

rdms have a B , at most they will get a boost to B+. blus have a A- they arent going to make red melee potential on the same level of blu's and thats were it needs to be skill wise to even have the ACC / ATK to really matter for levels 91-95 you gain 7 skill per level with any A ranked skill vs 5 for anything B. assuming that trend continues to 99 your looking at blu 417 base skill , Red 380 , 37 acc and atk difference is pretty big gap to cover without some major gear.

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I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it's not a straight 1 attack / accuracy per skill.

it might be .75 [er level above a point but still the diffrence would be major

Composure should give +Fencer and allow the use of exclusive sword weapon skills like Vorpal/Red Lotus/Sanguine

what is red mages obsession with vorpal blade? Chant is more then Double the FTP mod and is 60% dex mod.... why would you want something worse then what you have, and dont argue almace is hard its the 3rd easyes empy to get. Fistule > Cara > Bman you can solo him and all his KI mobs on RDM and all your TE's / lights so whats the deal?

A job shouldn't have to be level 90 and then some before it could even hope to begin playing an aspect of its theme. Not everyone goes 30-90 in a day. Some understand the concept of linear progression over the steep cliff that is Almace for RDM. Nobody's saying Vorpal is better than CDC, but it'd be nice for a RDM to have it without an otherwise frowned upon sub until they did get a CDC weapon. Sanguine Blade also has its place, and RDM is probably the best job for it, but... ya know, yay EX WS.

I think you are at least didn't say that no one should need an empy to be good? Or did I read that wrong?

Wow, ya know.. almost everything you ask for can already be done ingame, as a Red Mage? Want more magic skills? Sub Scholar and use the appropriate Arts. Want missing Sword weapon skills and more Attack? Sub Dark Knight (and get a buncha 'missing' Black spells like Stun and Absorbs). While your intent is good, and heck, I was one of those RDMs who did melee.. when it was safe.. not if it had an AoE or silence or something.. I'd always make sure to DO MY JOB and Refresh/Haste etc. everyone FIRST..

I would like an A- rating in Swords and Daggers though. That won't really break anything; and to be honest, they could give an across-the-board boost to most jobs 'primary' weapon rankings in the same way for fairness. The spell and trait changes you listed are way too powerful though without severely nerfing the potency of the traits themselves (remember that enemies have the same jobs we do too..).

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Originally Posted by Aramaru

Wow, ya know.. almost everything you ask for can already be done ingame, as a Red Mage? Want more magic skills? Sub Scholar and use the appropriate Arts. Want missing Sword weapon skills and more Attack? Sub Dark Knight (and get a buncha 'missing' Black spells like Stun and Absorbs). While your intent is good, and heck, I was one of those RDMs who did melee.. when it was safe.. not if it had an AoE or silence or something.. I'd always make sure to DO MY JOB and Refresh/Haste etc. everyone FIRST..

I would like an A- rating in Swords and Daggers though. That won't really break anything; and to be honest, they could give an across-the-board boost to most jobs 'primary' weapon rankings in the same way for fairness. The spell and trait changes you listed are way too powerful though without severely nerfing the potency of the traits themselves (remember that enemies have the same jobs we do too..).

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No, not quite. Just because that is the job the "community" gave it doesn't mean that it is it's job.

It's the job you're going to do if you want to be on RDM, else the door to solo land is that way ------>

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Originally Posted by Rearden

It's the job you're going to do if you want to be on RDM, else the door to solo land is that way ------>

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I play as boringWHM, the actual "magical party enhancer" if I'm asked to do that.

I'm sorry, so let me take a step back here and address this from a different direction.

What content @75 cap or now @90+ cap where a RDM wasn't tanking would a RDM be viable on the front lines?

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I'm sorry, so let me take a step back here and address this from a different direction.

What content @75 cap or now @90+ cap where a RDM wasn't tanking would a RDM be viable on the front lines?

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None, next question.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I'm sorry, so let me take a step back here and address this from a different direction.

What content @75 cap or now @90+ cap where a RDM wasn't tanking would a RDM be viable on the front lines?

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running up for a lulweaponbash after you stunned gates?