[dev1024] Job Adjustments - Scarlet Delirium

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

"Scarlet Delirium" is useless. We will never give DRK anything worthwhile anyway. Go cry emo kids

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Thx, this will make my comeback decision more clear ;)

New numbers tho!

Code:

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Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 1789 HP

Indmg        Outdmg        Diff        DmgUp%        %HPlost

447        359        38        11.8        24.986%

491        362        41        12.7        27.445%



Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 2053 HP

Indmg        Outdmg        Diff        DmgUp%        %HPlost

461        356        35        10.9        22.455%

613        365        44        13.7        29.858%

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Also: Did convert after I get nuked to get less HP, didnt change a thing.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Also, regarding players’ requests to accumulate the damage received, we thought about this at first, but since this lowers the risk involved, the bonus would have to be reduced in return. Thus, we decided against that and implemented the current specs.

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How about at least change this to higher damage overwrite lower. It's kinda stupid that you got hit with 20 damage just before 1500 and you will get bonus based of that 20... Higher damage should overwrite lower.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

How about at least change this to higher damage overwrite lower. It's kinda stupid that you got hit with 20 damage just before 1500 and you will get bonus based of that 20... Higher damage should overwrite lower.

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Wait so if I get hit for 1500 damage, and then get hit for 20 damage .5 seconds later.


I get the bonus of 20 damage despite having lost ALL my HP?


What about Drain and Aspir, does this ability effect that too?


THIS IS STILL USELESS.


Limit the cap to 20%, limit it to 15%.





This is really close to being good, please stop making this ability useless SE.


There needs to be cap, and once that cap is reached via taken damage you have that much more offensive ability.

Or that the highest amount of damage recieved for a limited period of time is what the bonus is based on.

What if I have a DoT on? Does that overwrite the previous 1500hp hit?

This is just god damn silly.

"The limit is set much higher, and the closer you are to dying, the more damage is dealt to the opponent."

This can be misinterpreted. I have tested by getting nuked by 447 dmg and ending up below 100HP. And the DMG is still only proportional to the HP lost.

Code:

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Base Rng.Dmg: 321

Indmg        Outdmg        Diff        DmgUp%        Diff%        Diff%/InDmg       

487        362        41        12.77        0.0841        0.0262

595        372        51        15.88        0.0857        0.0266

718        385        64        19.93        0.0891        0.0277

955        407        86        26.79        0.0900        0.0281


Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 1789 HP

Indmg        Outdmg        Diff        DmgUp%        %HPlost

447        359        38        11.8        24.986%

491        362        41        12.7        27.445%



Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 2053 HP

Indmg        Outdmg        Diff        DmgUp%        %HPlost

461        356        35        10.9        22.455%

613        365        44        13.7        29.858%


Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 1737 HP

Indmg        Outdmg        Diff        DmgUp%        %HPlost

447        359        38        11.83        25.73

718        385        64        19.94        41.34

955        407        86        26.79        54.98

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Let's say you take 955 damage and gain that bonus of 27%?

If you get hit for 1 damage .01 seconds after it completely resets the bonus right?

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

"Scarlet Delirium" features the previously unused ability of turning received damage into a benefit, so we understand that players will take some time to adjust to its effects.

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In some ways yes but there are large flaw in the way you want us to use this.

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We added Scarlet Delirium as a technical ability that is useful when fighting very strong opponents in new content such as Voidwatch and HNMs.

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

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Stun has 20 distance casting range so if i need to stun but a mob uses a powerful attack i don't "have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead"

Secondly now you are implying that after a Large AoE or such a DRK will gain a 1 min DMG boost which is decent and i will agree the scale of the buff is fine and that hasn't been the issue the issue is when we take this large DMG we should run out range of AoEs and defintly not pull hate... this sytle of play you are trying to encourage is the very style of play the makes WHMs not want to cure DRKs :(.

Like i said before if the intial SD had a DMG reduction feature 20-100%(on teh 1 hit the buff is based on) then it would make being in range a worthwhile thing and it would even push DRK into more than just a stagger job.

Basically the way i see your giving us an ability that allows us to become one of the best DDs on some of the hardest mob forgetting the main things with these mobs is staying alive and linking it to taking DMG without a form of DMG reduction means it works against most party's Strategy and in total adds nothing to DRK in a VW or HNM area this is why we're saying it's useless.

To clarify the duration of the buff is still 1 min but you have 3 mins to take the DMG.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

Let's say you take 955 damage and gain that bonus of 27%?

If you get hit for 1 damage .01 seconds after it completely resets the bonus right?

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Nope if the 955 is the first DMG after u used SD you will keep the 27% buff for the 1 min

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

To clarify the duration of the buff is still 1 min but you have 3 mins to take the DMG.

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How the hell does this ability work, exactly? I'm still very confused about it. A step-by-step explanation/examples would be very appreciated from anyone with access to it.

You pop ability, icon is red-circle (absorb mode), after 1 hit, it turnst into a sword icon. From there on you got a +%dmg on melee and magic attacks.

This could just be a job trait IMO that gives a boost to dmg for severly inflicting damage, like the dmg a NIN can nullify...

Having more abilities and spells which "halts" regular swinging is just retarded now...

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Originally Posted by Madawc

Thx, this will make my comeback decision more clear ;)

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Hey at least that is an honest reply... it sure feels like it sometimes over the last few years since the newest development team looks at dark knight differently than the first one did.

Why would they increase the duration of the absorb on that to 180 seconds...? Three minutes to take a single hit, right? Then it turns into the sword icon for 60 seconds?

That just doesn't make much sense...

Yes, you pop and and wait to get AoE'd. Or "tactically" use it faster then an enemy can WS you directly while tanking.

Either way, it is a stupid way of implementing it. upto ~500 dmg you only get 13% dmg boost. You want atleast 20% for get that minute worthwhile. Should you lose 99% of your HP you are looking at +49% dmg for 1 minute.

If SE had some brains they would make this a Job TRAIT which procs if you lose more then 50% of your HP. Like NINs Migawari: "severely damaging attacks."

Looks like yet another good idea given a completely impractical and almost unusable application for DRKs to sit on in their long list of abilities and spells, while they sit there thinking about what could have been and watch other jobs do the things they play the job with the intention to do (SAM inflicts plague, WAR does spike damage, BLU helps out with unique enfeebles, THF stuns the enemy with Bully, etc...).

You know... I don't think I want this ability. I don't want to play DRK like this. Can't SE see that this is terrible? This isn't going to help anyone, the DRK or his party. If anything you'll see situations like this:

*Mob begins casting Blizzaga IV*
DRK: Ooooh!
*DRK runs into range*
*Everyone in range eats Blizzaga IV*
Everyone else: Why didn't you stun that!?
DRK: Pft, Scarlet Delirium of course! Derp.

Of course, only terrible DRKs will do that. I myself on the other hand will just never use the stupid ability. I'm not going to endanger myself and possibly my party by purposely acting stupid and getting myself killed. SE is basically asking us to act like idiots with this ability.

I dunno about other players, but I find it a little insulting that I'm being told I can't possibly be playing or doing it "right" because something is new and that it'll take me time to adjust to the effects. This game is 9 years old, and I've been playing since PC launch (October 30th 2003, says so right in my SE account for Rise of the Zilart pack). I also study game design and business in real life. I'm not trying to be elitist, but I'm trying to stress that I and many other players have enough experience to know when something isn't right. It only takes a little imagination to know exactly how to use something, especially in a 9 year old game. Mob AI isn't gonna suddenly change because of this ability. NIN isn't gonna tank any differently. WHMs aren't gonna heal any differently. It's easy to see exactly where this ability has it's uses, and it's not many.

I just don't understand why I have to "risk" so much on DRK for something that isn't even mediocre. I hate this sacrifice and risk theme. DRK is supposed to be a job that's powerful and selfish, the total opposite of sacrifice. It's PLD that's supposed to be sacrificing itself for the well-being of his comrades. I don't think I care what the dev team says, they are wrong. Both in theory and in design. I'm not trying to insult them by saying that though, I have a great respect for them and what they've done... They've made a great game overall. But nobody is perfect, and in this case they're just dead wrong. Case in point: You know their vision of balance is off when they feel taking most or ALL our TP for an ability is a good thing, but if you go in the other direction and give a little TP (Like SCH's Adloquium) all the sudden it's a big problem.

We have many DRKs trying to make it better, with so many great ideas. Even if the Dev team thinks something is overpowered, let's just TRY it in it's "overpowered" state on the test server and find out. That's what the darn thing is for isn't it? Let's try to start from the high end of things and tone it down IF it needs it, rather than starting from the bottom. We'll get better results that way.

At this point it's obvious they're just being stubborn. And I know they ARE trying to listen at least. But please, can't they just give us the benefit of the doubt? I want them to take some of the ideas we've given, overpowered or not, and add them to the test server. Best case scenario is a community rep creates a thread asking for everyone to post fixes and they all come under review by the dev team, and they add them to the test server to see if they're really good ideas or not.

I really believe we won't get any real results unless all us DRKs fight against this sacrifice and risk theme. We've had 15 levels of virtually nothing since 75, soon to be 20. After that, we have only 4 more levels to get something useful. Time is running out. If we want cool and useful stuff like what SAM is always getting, we gotta get rid of the sacrifice and risk theme. If DRK is at 0, and the buff is +1 and the sacrifice is a -1, what do you get? We're still at 0.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.
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lets see as far as moves we would stun vs take the pain on

Throat Stab
Citadel Buster
Spike Flail
the tonberry Rancor/grudge moves
Comet/Meteor
etc

the only real "heavy damage" spells we cant block

would be NMs immune to it such as some of the NMs in abyssea or some minor use in Campaign Battle/besieged
the only really non stunnable moves we would eat the damage on would be 2hr moves such as Avatar 2hrs (damn you Ogopogo 1% Tidal Wave) or other similar attacks

gotta agree with ya Muras it would seem that we are getting passed over on several fronts:

their argument on our survivability with Stun wep Bash and Spikes is kind of null, Stun every 45 secs if you are NOT using Hasso/Seigan. Dread Spikes only works against physical attacks up to 1/2 of max HP, Tactical Parry with D rank Parry ... no point in explaining, add to that that we are giving up 25+% of our defense for Last Resort's haste and attack boost.

Drains while useful do also have a longer recast timer than cure and they are completely USELESS on undead or dark resistant mobs

Blood Weapon WAS very potent paired with Souleater agaianst several NMs back in '05 but with current NM's becoming resistant to SE after a few hits its not helpful, add to that that just like Drain it is Useless against any Undead

as far as their whole Sacrifice for a gain idea, I could get behind it if the sacrifice and Gain balanced out with the other jobs power boosts, as you said however there is no way in hell a smart DRK would let heavy AoE damage hit the PT for ANY sort of power boost at the expense of the whole pt

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Originally Posted by Muras

You know... I don't think I want this ability. I don't want to play DRK like this. Can't SE see that this is terrible? This isn't going to help anyone, the DRK or his party.....

.....SE is basically asking us to act like idiots with this ability.

.....I dunno about other players, but I find it a little insulting that I'm being told I can't possibly be playing or doing it "right" because something is new and that it'll take me time to adjust to the effects.

....I just don't understand why I have to "risk" so much on DRK for something that isn't even mediocre.

.....We have many DRKs trying to make it better, with so many great ideas. Even if the Dev team thinks something is overpowered, [b]let's just TRY it in it's "overpowered" state on the test server and find out.

At this point it's obvious they're just being stubborn. And I know they ARE trying to listen at least. But please, can't they just give us the benefit of the doubt? I want them to take some of the ideas we've given, overpowered or not, and add them to the test server. Best case scenario is a community rep creates a thread asking for everyone to post fixes and they all come under review by the dev team, and they add them to the test server to see if they're really good ideas or not.

I really believe we won't get any real results unless all us DRKs fight against this sacrifice and risk theme. We've had 15 levels of virtually nothing since 75, soon to be 20. After that, we have only 4 more levels to get something useful. Time is running out. If we want cool and useful stuff like what SAM is always getting, we gotta get rid of the sacrifice and risk theme. If DRK is at 0, and the buff is +1 and the sacrifice is a -1, what do you get? We're still at 0.

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Couldn't of said it better myself, hit it right on the nose.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

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I forgot to go into a little detail with this too. Yes, there're moves we can't stun. However, like in the past, our party will often ask melee to be outside of range and only to run in and WS in order to avoid those impossible to stun moves, because getting hit with those AoE is stupid. Just because we have incentive to now ignore this, doesn't mean we're going to do it. This will only hurt DRK. People will get the mindset that it'll be easier to just avoid bringing DRK altogether to make sure someone doesn't try to make use of Scarlet Delirium. Those WHMs will still have to suddenly cure someone they otherwise wouldn't need to cure, you know? MP is precious outside Abyssea. Nobody will enjoy healing me. My drains certainly won't help on "very strong opponents", either.

They think that we (along with others, like THF namely) just don't understand why the changes they're making are good ideas. It's happened like this for a long, long time. It seems like eventually they'd grasp the fact that they're doing it wrong.

We've given you several years to create a role for DRK to fill, how about you start taking our ideas seriously for a change? Job balance in FFXI has never been well thought out, but at this point it's just atrocious. SE needs to take a fresh look / new angle on more than a couple of the jobs- especially DRK.



The problem is that instead of different jobs filling different roles, you just have jobs that are good and jobs that aren't. Generally, the jobs that are strong can do it all- while the jobs that are weak can't do any of it.

Case in point: the glass cannon BLM will out damage a DRK, and that's fine..but it can also spend 30 minutes soloing things if it wants. SAM will also out damage DRK in many situations, but it doesn't sacrifice a damn thing for it- it even got one of the best survival abilities in the game with Seigan + Third Eye. NIN deals more damage than a party of PLDs put together, and it also tanks better. DRK is supposed to be an offense-oriented WAR, but WAR will put out more damage with one WS than a DRK could hope to dish out while digging through its superfluous bullshit for five minutes. RNG spends tons of gil on consumable items to do its job...and it barely even has one now. The devs have said that they don't want to introduce shit all for THFs to use their staple Steal ability on because "THFs may "exploit" this to sell items to NPCs"...WTF is Steal for if not making gil?

The way that you should go about this is by taking each job, putting them each in a variety of (relevant) situations, and asking- Why would I use this job here?

That should be a natural question when balancing jobs and creating these abilities, but I know that they can't be thinking this way because if you ran that test right now you'd see that a handful of jobs can do various things to different degrees, and handful of jobs can do some things situationally, and a few jobs bring almost nothing to the table.

I'm just so incredibly disappointed, I have no idea what to say.

I hit the ability and then if I get hit for 25dmg thats it for an entire 3 minutes?

....Wtf?

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Originally Posted by Urteil

I'm just so incredibly disappointed, I have no idea what to say.

I hit the ability and then if I get hit for 25dmg thats it for an entire 3 minutes?

....Wtf?

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Except that the buff only lasts for one minute, apparently. You have 3 minutes to get hit.

Sometimes it takes time for a mob to get through all of your Tactical Parries, you know.


I have a question for the dev team:
If you're making a party for any given situation, and you have a choice of every job (i.e. there are 6-18 of each job lined up and ready for you to pick them), why would you choose DRK? Unless you want a good Arcana-intimidator, does DRK bring anything unique to the table? Does it do anything better than any other job can? Does it strike some balance by doing something almost as well as another job, while negating a weakness associated with another job that does it better?

You should be able to answer that question for every job, and you should sincerely ask it each time updates roll around.

Pretend like you have to play DRK- What have you really gained overall by switching to the offense-oriented magic hybrid of WAR instead of just staying on WAR? Is it worth it with the way those things work? Pretend like you have to play RNG- what should your money buy you? Pretend like you have to play PLD- why aren't you switching to NIN? Pretend like you have to play THF- what should you be able to do?

...Is it really that difficult to do this?

DRK has no natural evasion and no natural damage mitigation.


Why the hell do I have three minutes to get hit once?


Do they actually think we parry, due to the useless job trait they gave us?


I'm having a hard time believing ANYONE is this stupid.

They couldve just gave us Drain III or Dread Spikes II I wouldve be extremely happy with that

They need to change it to where you take multiple hits during the absorb phase to hit a dmg cap. While during the boost phase is a set dmg % boost . LIke 20 to 30%. Also they need to change the timers around. The absorb phase should be 1 min/1 min 30 sec, while the dmg boost should be 2 to 3 mins.

Or leave Scarlet Delirium as is but swap the timers, 1 min for absorb phase and 3 mins for dmg boost phase. Either option should fix Scarlet Delirium Imo.

This ANY one hit during the absorb phase for 3 mins is just fucking stupid.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

"Scarlet Delirium" features the previously unused ability of turning received damage into a benefit, so we understand that players will take some time to adjust to its effects.

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I think it is sad they don't even know their own game.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

I think it is sad they don't even know their own game.

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I think they meant it's unique that it's the only ability that "benefits" from getting hit with an area of effect attack, unlike counter, retaliation, spike spells etc. At least as far as I'm aware.

Does that make it useful and DRK a desirable party member? Don't hold your breath dev team.

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Originally Posted by Madawc

If SE had some brains they would make this a Job TRAIT which procs if you lose more then 50% of your HP. Like NINs Migawari: "severely damaging attacks."

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The way you writing this implying that Migawari is a job trait. I hope you know it's a spell that works for 1 attack and has a 2 min recast?

My idea for Scarlet Delirium is to make absorb phase a 1 minute long and bonus phase should start exactly after absorb phase not after 1st attack you get. Bonus should be based on highest attack you got in the absorb phase so for example:

1. you turn it on
2. You get some hit for 20, 100, 30 ,50, 90 and 40 sec into absorb mode mob did some TP attack for 1000 damage.
3. After 60 sec absorb mode it check highest recorded damage in this case 1000 and make a bonus based on that

This or like someone wrote make the bonus phase 3min with absorb phase of 60 sec. For now this ability should be used just before some high damaging AoE or TP move so I have no idea why SE made it 3min absorb when they want us to use just before the attack lol. Seriously Camate please ask development team about this.

Yes I know Migawari is a spell, I was pointing to its use. It procs only when a certain amount of damage is dealt. I suggest SD to be made in to a JOB TRAIT which procs if more then 50% of your HP is lost. This proc last for 1min and next proc must wait atleast 3min.

Or the Job Trait could just accumulate damage taken and decay over time. Like a buffer, you fill the buffer up with damage taken and it bleeds off to zero. DmgUp% is proportional to the buffer. Lowering the cap from 49.9% to 30% would be reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

They couldve just gave us Drain III or Dread Spikes II I wouldve be extremely happy with that

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I would like to think dark knight gets to actually be a zerg damage job again before they jacked up everyone else. I am fine with defensive spells/abilities but their power should come first and foremost as they are suppose to excel at damage over warrior. I am just going to keep on playing warrior till SE understands what the first development team did about dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

DRK has no natural evasion and no natural damage mitigation.


Why the hell do I have three minutes to get hit once?


Do they actually think we parry, due to the useless job trait they gave us?


I'm having a hard time believing ANYONE is this stupid.

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They aren't this stupid.. they just hate dark knight.. different team.. different agenda for jobs.

After playing with the JA myself, I'm incredibly unimpressed. The idea behind the JA is great. I think a JA that extends the idea of DRK by taking damage while being able to inflict more damage is right on target. The implementation is just poor.

I would much rather have the JA accumulate damage taken, and have a lower output. (I'd also request a duration increase too... keep the JA buff active for 2-3 minutes, and then an extra 2 minutes for downtime. [2 or 3min up, 2min down.])

Attempting to improve DRK damage during endgame fights isn't going to make them any more desirable than they are today. And it's still going to leave them behind other top tier DDs. I strongly suggest a JA like this is reviewed and changed to bump DRK up a top tier damage dealer, while still maintaining a uniqueness from other DD.

I think SE has yet to realize tactics that has become standard practice in most endgame linkshells

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers.

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In such a case we Dark Knights, and most front line melee, are considered undesirable because:

1. We feed TP to the monster in question, increasing the number of times uses its "dangerous special abilities" and raises the chance of a full party wipe.

2. Dark Knights often get invited to NMs that need to be stunned, if it is unstunnable, thats one less invite we get

3. The preferred method of dealing with such NMs is a tank (single or dual-tank), healers and ranged attack/magic, or gain TP from a safe distance and only approach NM to weaponskill.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

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In instances dealing with a NM that has a devastating weaponskill that you must keep in close proximity, what will end up happening is an increase of Samurai used to stand next to the monster but facing away until their TP is @ 100%.

Scarlet Delirium's usefulness is truly situational at best. What we were hoping for is something we can use on a regular basis, whether it be farming, meriting, or End Game NMs; something we cannot accomplish with a short duration and asinine stipulation of only the 1st hit being counted.

In FFXIV alpha/beta we testers had forums like this where we voiced our concerns about the direction things were going, the Devs ignored our advice for the most part and stood fast to their "Vision of how the game should be." I think we all know how that ended up...

I agree that Scarlet Delirium should be a JA that can be used on a regular basis. It shouldnt be us waiting for a high lvl HNM to use a high dmg spell / aoe/ or tp move for us to even use this ablity.

Just change it to fixed amount of dmg taken <insert amount of hp loss amount here> (50 to 60%?) during the absorb dmg phase or when the 3 min timer runs out.... lol. Then make it a 20 to 30% max dmg boost for the 1 min.(Again swap the absorb duration with the dmg boost duration.)

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Originally Posted by Madawc

Yes I know Migawari is a spell, I was pointing to its use. It procs only when a certain amount of damage is dealt. I suggest SD to be made in to a JOB TRAIT which procs if more then 50% of your HP is lost. This proc last for 1min and next proc must wait atleast 3min.

Or the Job Trait could just accumulate damage taken and decay over time. Like a buffer, you fill the buffer up with damage taken and it bleeds off to zero. DmgUp% is proportional to the buffer. Lowering the cap from 49.9% to 30% would be reasonable.

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I agree. Let it stay up for 3min but only proc on large damaging blows/JAs/magic etc. Or let it accumulate. Its just going to piss DRKs off when they pop it and then take 100 points of damage from the mob.

I sincerely would rather not even have this ability as it is. It'd just be trash sitting in the JA list. I feel the same way about Tactical Parry.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

I sincerely would rather not even have this ability as it is. It'd just be trash sitting in the JA list. I feel the same way about Tactical Parry.

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I feel the exact same way too.

or maybe they should make it a stance ja, but with a huge boost to damage, so after taking damage the boost never wears off till you are healed, basically keeping in line with the "risk" factor of running in at low hp on an hnm/voidwatch nm and performing a ws, however, this also runs along the same lines as using soul eater at full hp on a ws. Just that soul eater on a one hit ws dmg is bleh at best.

for example if i am sitting at 100 hp, and i can run in and do 6k dmg ws outside of abyssea, i know that is a lil extreme, but you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

I feel the exact same way too.

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Urteil I saw your post in the sam forums. I tried telling you they hate dark knight lol. This is just total lack of caring for one job and "golden egg" spooning of many others.

interesting idea, horrible implementation. also works in direct opposition to our AF3+2 set bonus, such as it is.