[dev1024] Job Adjustments - MNK (Nothing?)

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Originally Posted by Lucidious

how can u judge that though being that you do not even have monk leveled, would u judge another boost to triple attack as overpowered on thief, im sure many would, but all thieves would welcome it happily

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Dumb. Just go away. You are retarded.

everyone has the right to post on here, and ive been a mnk for a long ass time, and just put that up as an idea due to the fact that ive heard many many other monks mention it, judge as you will it is my personal opinion and i will post as i see fit, if you dont like it, dont read the forums. on a side note, i like the guardstance idea, as well as ideas ive seen to add new combat styles to mnk that each have + and - to them like counterstance does with the def-

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Originally Posted by Lucidious

everyone has the right to post on here, and ive been a mnk for a long ass time, and just put that up as an idea due to the fact that ive heard many many other monks mention it, judge as you will it is my personal opinion and i will post as i see fit, if you dont like it, dont read the forums. on a side note, i like the guardstance idea, as well as ideas ive seen to add new combat styles to mnk that each have + and - to them like counterstance does with the def-

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ITT: Many many = 3~4

i have 7 in my ls alone, and i have spoken with several others but wtv doesnt matter, its just an opinion

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Originally Posted by Cair

Let's not forget that MNK automatically benefits from an increase in H2H skill every level cap raise more than any other job does. MNK is already really strong, I'm betting they just want to balance everything else to make it nearly as useful.

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Honestly, 99.9% chance they already factor in native h2h skill when deciding how much dmg+ to put on h2h weapons and their magian increases, so while it seems nice on paper, it's probably not an upgrade at all. If I were to math it, other jobs would probably get a higher % increase in base dmg than h2h weps and the skill balances that out.

I know many of you are somewhat disappointed that there aren’t any adjustments or new abilities being added for monk in the upcoming version update. We apologize for this, but compared to other jobs, monk and warrior are already leading in certain areas and we would like to close this gap a bit by monitoring the situation.

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Persistent pugilists whose fists speak louder than words, partially because they also render enemy attacks completely impotent.

We'd like to see monks further mature into an even more supportive attacking role within the party. There's still room to build upon their renowned self-defense tactics such as Chakra and Counter, and they can also benefit from some extra training in skills like Subtle Blow and Chi Blast that leave foes too weak to fend off attacks from other party members.

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We get the feeling that those of you who play monk are really into it and attracted to it because you’re able to kick some butt by punching monsters in the face. Due to this, we don’t have any plans of changing this aspect.

Additionally, we aren’t looking to add abilities and adjustments to stop enemies from using special abilities, instead we are focusing more on making it possible to actually see and feel how many times an enemy is being inhibited from using special abilities by lowering TP, making it difficult to store TP, and creating times where enemies cannot gain TP.

Though we said that monk is leading in some aspects, this doesn’t mean that we’re ignoring it. We will be looking at your feedback and discussions and utilizing the test server for future adjustments.

All you mnks should just suck it up... You can already duo all of abyssea...

That aside, I'm interested in seeing how effective these 95-99 JAs Camate mentioned will be

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Originally Posted by Mizuharu

All you mnks should just suck it up... You can already duo all of abyssea...

That aside, I'm interested in seeing how effective these 95-99 JAs Camate mentioned will be

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So can a lot of other jobs, your point?

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Originally Posted by Camate

I know many of you are somewhat disappointed that there aren’t any adjustments or new abilities being added for monk in the upcoming version update. We apologize for this, but compared to other jobs, monk and warrior are already leading in certain areas and we would like to close this gap a bit by monitoring the situation.

Though we said that monk is leading in some aspects, this doesn’t mean that we’re ignoring it. We will be looking at your feedback and discussions and utilizing the test server for future adjustments.

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As much as I enjoy Monk, I'm glad to see this kind of response~

job ability aside there was mention of giving hand to hand something to put in our sub slot is there any info you can give us on this. Also there was talk of augmenting Chakra via boost , and id like ro see a 3rd item introduced that enhances chakra's effect to 4.0 , with the ability to remove Curse or Bio or any Erase required status effect. there was also mention of another set of merits being given to jobs what could we look forward to there.

"Crippling Blow". (job ability). 2 min recast. Instant. Deals strong damage and randomly lowers a mobs stat(ala absorb spells). Moderate ~ strong effect (20-40pts), non-decaying.

"indomitable will". (job ability). 5min recast. Instant. Stores a % of damage inflicted on monk and unleashes it after timer. Duration 30 sec.

look if your going to spout off random ability at least give a reason / use for them. crippling blow doesn't pick a stat and is useless. the will JA is dependent on monk taking damage, at that time is the dmg magical physical is there a cap does it generate enmity think things through next time please,

I remember them saying something about upgrading our black belts to blackerester belts or something. What ever happened to that?

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Originally Posted by Mizuharu

All you mnks should just suck it up... You can already duo all of abyssea...

That aside, I'm interested in seeing how effective these 95-99 JAs Camate mentioned will be

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WHM is part of that duo (And the most essential part of any Abyssea duo), but they're getting adjustments. Lets revoke those too!

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Originally Posted by Yugl

WHM is part of that duo (And the most essential part of any Abyssea duo), but they're getting adjustments. Lets revoke those too!

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Also, Thf and Whm can duo almost all of Abyssea, but try going to the Thf forum and telling them they don't need any adjustments, see what response you get.

Wow, you know Pup got 0 ja or traits last patch right? I believe Bst got nothing too, so it is your turn, suck it up.

I agree that every update does not need to be a boost to overall possible damage coming from Monk (depending on what other jobs get), parts of Monk do need some attention to remain or become useful, such as Footwork and Guard.

Improving these things would be a step in the right direction:
Footwork needs a niche where we'd choose to use it over normal hand to hand for good reasons, not to slow down our damage and control our hate production (maybe stronger attack against enemies with high defense with 2-hander type bonuses and/or the ability to randomly short-stun enemies.) and Guard is a unique and significant method of damage mitigation that actually helps us against enemies that use "job ability attacks" that cannot be countered, but it needs some help (higher activation rate, maybe part of Footwork is increasing guard rate, etc). These would be in addition to the areas that they're already focusing on in the above post.

Neither upgrade is expected to make Monk even "more powerful" than other jobs. They focus on the lesser-used or less useful aspects of the job. I guess the biggest argument against any such upgrades is that it's so-called "wasted time" that could be used on "more useful" updates (a point on which I disagree.)

(A suggestion that fits into the proposed changes to Monk: A job ability: Grapple. Using this ability may prevent the enemy from defending itself against other party member's attacks. (turning off Counterattack, Shield blocking, Evasion, Guard and Parry) The drawback: While grappling, the monk's auto-attack rounds may be consumed each time it prevents one of the above defense actions of the enemy.)

Just remove mnk from the game job done everyone happy. :D

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Originally Posted by Camate

Additionally, we aren’t looking to add abilities and adjustments to stop enemies from using special abilities, instead we are focusing more on making it possible to actually see and feel how many times an enemy is being inhibited from using special abilities by lowering TP, making it difficult to store TP, and creating times where enemies cannot gain TP.

Though we said that monk is leading in some aspects, this doesn’t mean that we’re ignoring it. We will be looking at your feedback and discussions and utilizing the test server for future adjustments.

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Well if you are looking into ideas for Subtle Blow effects here is an idea. Give us a job ability with a recast and duration like that of formless strikes that removes our ability to gain TP as well as the ability to give it. True you well never get a weapon skill off unless your /SAM or using 'wing' items, but it does make monks a more support type DD since adding them to the font line won't add to the mob's weapon skills. And if you don't want us using it to make monks the "best low man tank" (more so then they are), give the ability some sort enmity down or cap such that keeping hate with this on is hard to impossible.

Also if you want to upgrade Chakra, either make it charge based (with same recast would still be reasonable) or make the potency significantly higher so its more effective then a subjobable spell/job ability (E.I. Cure IV and Curing Waltz III).

On a note different from my previous post, Ninja is already better at subtle blow effects then Monk. They have a debuff spell versus Monk's merited job ability + trait. (Spell has shorter recast and longer duration without using merits, but I won't get into the whole "resistances" argument and I don't know potency difference) Not to mention Ninja surpassed Monk's subtle blow trait all the way back at 75.

Not complaining just noting that its odd that the Dev team wants to make Monk better at something that they already made someone else better at, with good reason.

Nin's TP reduction spell is -10% compared to Penance's -25%. Nin can keep it up fulltime, though, and I believe it overwrites Penance (likely because it has a longer duration).

So --

Mnk: 20% innate. Gear includes: 10% on Tantra +2 head, 5% on Black Belt/Rajas/Agasaya/Usuakane, and a few other pieces here and there. Most likely sitting at 40% base, but can reach 50% if you want to. Using 40%.

Penance is a 25% Inhibit effect that can be maintained 55% of the time, for a theoretical ~14% TP reduction over time.

Nin: 25% innate, 5% merits, 10% spell for 40% base. Gear such as Rajas Ring, Agasaya's Collar or Usukane Gote can easily be added in to cap it. They can then put a permanent -10% TP Inhibit effect on the mob (subject to resistances).


Emp nin should be getting 4.3 TP per hit (base), while Emp mnk should be getting 4.8. TP given to the mob per hit: 3.2 for the nin, 3.4 or 4.6 depending on if Penance is up (~4.1 average) for mnk.

Avg delay per base punch for mnk: 163
Avg delay per base hit for nin: 98

TP given per second (before DA/kicks/etc):
mnk: 1.69 to 1.25 (1.45 avg)
nin: 1.96


The lower delay nin attacks at really hurts their TP given to the mob, even after factoring in their better Subtle Blow options.

Compare war w/Ukon: 13 base TP per hit, 5% SB (do they have any aside from Rajas?), so 15.2 TP given to the mob per hit and 1.89 TP given per second (less than nin, even).

And Footwork mnk: TP given to the mob is based on 6.4 (theoretical TP gained at 1/2 FW's 480 delay), so 4.2-5.6 TP given per kick, and 0.525 to 0.7 TP given per second.

So yes, I'd say that low TP given to the mob is still generally mnk's domain, though the above ignores all multi-attack traits that will mess up the final values.

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Originally Posted by xbobx

Wow, you know Pup got 0 ja or traits last patch right? I believe Bst got nothing too, so it is your turn, suck it up.

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Mnk didn't get any traits last patch, either if you're talking about the patch where they added voidwatch.

If you're talking about the last level cap patch, you guys got martial arts IV and if I'm not mistaken, between then and now, some new attachments.

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Not complaining just noting that its odd that the Dev team wants to make Monk better at something that they already made someone else better at, with good reason.

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Argument against giving any other job Cure5+?

@gaiben

lol not really. See montenten post. So many people back at 75 thought MNK was a TP feeding job, when in fact, it was the job the give the least TP to mobs. It became absolutely obvious when doing salvage bosses. Personally only used mnk and sams. When having mnks mages were Zzzz and when having SAMs mages were "shit this mob needs to stop Wsing".

I like the idea of making MNK the default tanking DD classe by giving them even more mean to reduce their TP feed, but... nothing about those abilities 91-95? lol wtf.

Off topic - but in regards to spike flail.

In abyssea, some NM's are better to butt-tank and eat a few spike flails to avoid other TP's. Azdaja & Isgebind to name a couple...

Azdaja only, you have no reason to do it for Isgebind >_>

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Originally Posted by Alderin

Off topic - but in regards to spike flail.

In abyssea, some NM's are better to butt-tank and eat a few spike flails to avoid other TP's. Azdaja & Isgebind to name a couple...

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Dragua doesn't even flail. But yeah Aza,Isge,Dragua,Alfard are all easy to "butt" tank.

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Originally Posted by Gael

Azdaja only, you have no reason to do it for Isgebind >_>

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WHy not? you want to get terror'ed and dispel all?

Because Isgebind sucks hard.

Horrid Roar : Takes 1 sec to cast a shell 5 on the tank, an other sec to cast a barspell and 2 sec to cast a haste. The hate reset is NEVER a problem (1 voke is enough to keep the NM on you, if you count 1-2 sec after the end of the move to do it)
Glacial Breath : loldmg
Gregale Wing : never proc (2 proc on me for 50ish fights), and the aura para is not really powerfull
Spike Flail is not dangerous alone, but it can makes you wipe if it does it right after an unresisted blizzard 5, ga 4
Absolute Terror : This one sucks a bit, but the duration is very short so not really a problem

We usually killed it in 5-7 min (we always had to wait the beginning of the windows for the repop of Kur).


(BTW we did it with whm + mnk, and i was the whm, so believe me when i say it's a lot easier to kill it w/o tank it from behide, and it doesnt really take longer)

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Originally Posted by AyinDygra

I agree that every update does not need to be a boost to overall possible damage coming from Monk (depending on what other jobs get), parts of Monk do need some attention to remain or become useful, such as Footwork and Guard.

Improving these things would be a step in the right direction:
Footwork needs a niche where we'd choose to use it over normal hand to hand for good reasons, not to slow down our damage and control our hate production (maybe stronger attack against enemies with high defense with 2-hander type bonuses and/or the ability to randomly short-stun enemies.) and Guard is a unique and significant method of damage mitigation that actually helps us against enemies that use "job ability attacks" that cannot be countered, but it needs some help (higher activation rate, maybe part of Footwork is increasing guard rate, etc). These would be in addition to the areas that they're already focusing on in the above post.

Neither upgrade is expected to make Monk even "more powerful" than other jobs. They focus on the lesser-used or less useful aspects of the job. I guess the biggest argument against any such upgrades is that it's so-called "wasted time" that could be used on "more useful" updates (a point on which I disagree.)

(A suggestion that fits into the proposed changes to Monk: A job ability: Grapple. Using this ability may prevent the enemy from defending itself against other party member's attacks. (turning off Counterattack, Shield blocking, Evasion, Guard and Parry) The drawback: While grappling, the monk's auto-attack rounds may be consumed each time it prevents one of the above defense actions of the enemy.)

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In full agreement with what you're saying. Other, older traits and abilities need to be tweaked more than new things need to be added. Really like the idea of Grapple you have going there too.