Hate reset and you, why the devs are lazy

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Resident evil effect. Here's your 2 bullets to kill 10 zombies. Hard huh?

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That'd be funny if Capcom hadn't thrown that approach out the window since RE4 (much to my chagrin)


And yeah, hate resets suck. But that's (supposedly) what we have PLD for.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I don't think we're exactly going to be getting a ton of "new content" at this point. We might as well not break the old stuff.

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True. It's just nice to let out a wail of lament that nobody felt the need to dedicate time to adjusting the enmity system along with the level cap increase and the release of Abyssea - Places.

The therapeutic benefit of wailing in lament is not to be underestimated. It's the singular reason for most songs written between 1980 and 1990, after all. Well, that and guys with big hair needing more cocaine.

To certain extent, I thought losing the enmity of a certain target was all right, but at some point it became really annoying, the more I encountered it.

I think only thing I am more disgruntled about are the cheating NMs using Death (I hate Xibalba, with a passion) or abilities that have the same effect (for example Sobek, which does not always have the effect but it's still nothing fun, and far from adding to the game as challenging).

Often the 'hate-reset' is not a big issue for me, if I can re-gain the attention of the monster quickly enough via Provoke and or physical hits. But sometimes it simply takes a while, and/or the monster likes to do it all the frickin' time, which again is not fun, nor adding to the game as a challenge.

I don't think even Paladins get much more, if at all, pleasure from these moments as any other job does due to how enmity works...


In short: I don't think it's a needed feature ('hate-reset'), at all.
Just my thoughts. ^^


Edit:

Forgot to add that it's in the same category of annoying things to me as monster immunities go, e.g., why give us silencing and stunning abilities if the monsters just resist it. Though this is far less annoying, but sort of in the same place as it essentially seems like cheating.

I agree to certain enemies being resistant to certain spells for example, but it has become nearly a rule now which is just disappointing...

I think there is two ideas that could be implemented. 1st is when enemies hate reset, it effects the whole party or alliance. This makes more sense to me. Which would still require enmity building-up time.

And the 2nd is an alteration of the first idea, where all mobs/NM's have a time limit and then hate reset everyone. If they cant change the enmity cap, then make the cap reset itself after a minute or two. At least this way, PLD's have a chance to "keep" agro, by establishing "new" hate, and again capping it before everyone else. But that goes for any tank really, but would increasingly help PLD do their job. Or everyone can be a jerk and race to the cap to see who dies first. Whatever you want. I like Option 2. If you cant raise cap hate, then make cap hate reset itself at certain intervals.

And if they cant "raise" the hate cap, then they almost have no choice but to start practicing the 2nd option.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

But when the hate reset move is used multiple times in a row...

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Limit TP feed. I can't think of any monsters off the top of my head that have back-to-back enmity reset abilites. Nor AoE enmity reset. There are a few conal/breath enmity reset, but I can't think of a 360 degrees AoE enmity reset move.

If I recall SE didn't want NINs to be tanks in the first place and wanted PLDs to be tanks, which is why they added enmity reduction each time a shadow was absorbed. Unfortunately PLDs are far from effective tanks in Abyssea. Some do manage to make good tanks, but most just don't have the gear or the skills. PLD damage is very weak and their hate is something that has to build up over time. In mid-fight if a mob resets hate that means everyone has to stop what they're doing so the PLD can generate threat again, which requires a lot of cooperation and luck. It's not a great idea, as the OP has stated if you want to make the game harder then introduce more devastating attacks that could make or break an alliance, like requires people to cooperate and be on their toes and utilising all their abilities.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

Limit TP feed. I can't think of any monsters off the top of my head that have back-to-back enmity reset abilites. Nor AoE enmity reset. There are a few conal/breath enmity reset, but I can't think of a 360 degrees AoE enmity reset move.

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I can think of AoE hate reset, ones that do it back to back, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I can think of AoE hate reset, ones that do it back to back, etc.

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If the NM in question is really doing hate resets back to back (which sounds like too much TP feed), wouldn't it be possible to force it to do that TP move enough times to reset everyone in your group? Then it would be a simple matter of the tank(s) establishing hate again.

Hate reset moves are usually pretty solid damage as well, AoE ones I'm thinking of have negative effects, eg being slept.

Would be nice if you would share the NMs you're thinking of. No idea why you think it needs to be secret.

If you're thinking of NMs that get a complete alliance-wide enmity reset move, then they are even easier. One VE move (eg. Provoke for Nin, Flash for Pld) and they have hate again.

If there are mobs that have AoE hate reset that is a fixed AoE range and not alliance wide, then it's still pretty simple to counter for good players.

1) Everyone will be watching their own hate to make sure it's not getting too high. A 2nd tank will be standing with backlines, but generating CE at a rate where he's 2nd on the hate list. Thus when the mob does his enmity-reset move on the first tank, he goes for the 2nd. Then the first one slowly builds up to try and be 2nd on the list again. Hard for some I guess, but good groups dont have trouble with this.

Yeah, it would be nice if you specified what NMs you're talking about. I haven't fought/tanked any NMs with hate reset moves that couldn't be handled in some way or another. This includes NMs that spams such moves.

On a side note, I actually found dealing with various types of hate reset a nice way to sync myself with whatever group I go with. Very nice to know the tendencies of my teammates, especially if I plan to play with them for a while.

No one has claimed it to be difficult, we've said it's a gimmick way of making it 'more' difficult.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Voidwatch

Sallow Seymour, Pancimanci, Krabimanjaro, Ogbunabali, Murk-Veined Baneberry, Akupara all have hate reset moves, the other mobs cast/insta-cast death. Some of them charm, some of them have potent regain and require no TP/reason to spam spells or TP moves. All of them go batshit under 50-25%.

Again, no one is saying this is hard or unbeatable, because we do beat it. We are saying it's a gimmick increase in difficulty.

Looking at the NMs you listed, I still don't see anything too different from other variants of the same families. Even when spammed, I still don't see a reason to view them as just gimmicks. Otherwise, I might have to view Death and Doom as gimmicks as well and that just opens a whole can of worms.

And yeah you're right, none of them are difficult to deal with and are actually fun when people panic over voice chat.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

No one has claimed it to be difficult, we've said it's a gimmick way of making it 'more' difficult.

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Compared to what? With the damage players can put out now, just increasing the HP isn't going to make something difficult, only longer. Increasing the damage will just increase dependence on shadows to avoid the damage. New mechanics are the only way to create some challenge that can't be easily handled by the same means that dealt with all the previous fights that used the old mechanics.

An increase in difficulty has to come from something new because more of the same isn't difficult.

SE should hire some of the FFXI community members and just have them toss out ideas all day for a summer or something.
90% of the suggestions on these forums are utter rubish, coming from people who say "my twilight belt beats your black belt" and "PLD needs berserker stance". But at least 5% are superior to anything I've seen the Dev team impliment, and the remaining 5%, if implimented, could see FFXI actually start to grow in terms of player numbers.

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Originally Posted by Karinya_of_Carbuncle

An increase in difficulty has to come from something new because more of the same isn't difficult.

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Which goes back to the topic of whether anything new can be introduced to create a challenging encounter. I can't help much in that department, as my frame of reference is based around Lineage II (which tend to be "throw bodies and damage until it dies") and WoW raids (which have so many crazy mechanics depending on the tier, most of which would not be supported by FFXI's engine).

I personally don't notice hate reset even if it is common. That's probably because it's about as insignificant as any other Sobek-fight-related complaint. If they want to add "difficulty", they can add precision based skills, but that tends to **** over people with poor connection.