dump the PS2...

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Originally Posted by Zatias

Half of the playerbase still plays on ps2?

That's hard to believe, considering they don't even make hard drive ps2s anymore, which ffxi needs to run on.

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I've bought quite a few recent things from Japan made for the PS2. It may be "dead" where you live but a lot of indie developers and smaller studios still support it along with new consoles.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

OMG... not another one. We probly have 2 dozen or more of these threads.

Essentially what has to happen when shooting for multi-platform compatibility, the foundation of your programming has to be restricted to the lowest level of hardware you intend to support so it will always run on all the platforms you expect to run it on.

FFXI was built in a specific environment (PS2) and has hard-coded limitations embedded in it's core to communicate with the firmware/BIOS of a PS2. That is why you need a BIOS file from a PS2 to make a PS2 emulator work--it has to be able to run the compiled code, and an x86 system cannot read that assembly language natively. This has not changed. PS2 assembly is still used in the Windows and 360 versions, they just have a "wrapper" to run that code. A large portion of that core code has remained the same as it was 10 years ago.

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And you know this because?

There are too many differences between the Windows and PS2 versions of FFXI for it to be simply emulation. Projection shadows are higher resolution in the windows version, certain ingame effects are quite different (avatar glow effects and the on screen battle message animation immediately come to mind, some magic effects are a little different between the versions also) Weather effects can be toggled off in the PC version. And the recent addition of buttons that automatically scale with resolution all point to FFXI on Windows not being simple emulation.

I do know that some things that could be done with shaders in DirectX 9 now were done with software because DirectX 8's fixed function shaders weren't as powerful and flexible as the PS2's vector units. Shouldn't be too hard to just replace that code with Shader Model 3.0 code though.

It wouldn't really be hard to create am HD client for FFXI on Windows and 360 using Gamebryo Lightspeed or whatever. These days you don't have to build a game from the ground up, you just license an engine and over 75% of the coding has been done for you.

The thing you have to remember about an MMO is that most of the important stuff doesn't happen on the client, it happens on the server end. The client is just a graphics terminal that shows you what's happening on the server (in FFXI's case, as with many MMOs it also handles your character's movement). There's no technical reason why they couldn't make an HD client for Windows and 360 while retaining compatibility with the PS2 client. Without memory limitations annoying things like lag in transferring items between bags would disappear because you'd have enough memory to cache the transfers. The 80 slot per bag limit would remain, but wouldn't really matter anymore because you could now transfer from any bag to any other bag on the Windows and 360 versions (the old limitations would still apply to the PS2 version)

common industry practices. you don't typically compile apps seperately for each and every release of java from 3.0 all the way up to 6.x. You pick one assembly release to compile with and set that as the minimum requirement. You let the JRE's handle everything else outside of what is handled by the core logic in the compiled assembly.

It has been discussed adnauseum by people who have picked the files apart laboriosly (as in people who developed third party tools) and have posted to the effect that there appears to be a core PS2 logic that is run through a "wrapper" of sorts, hooking into the various API's and such specific to the environment it is running in.

Research also confirms over 400 files (roughly 64MB worth, just ran the search and actually got 448) on the hard drive (a lot of ROM and DAT) that predate even the PS2 launch by over a year--many show Dec. 18, 2000. Those files were pulled off optical media and added to my system at the time of install and have remained unchanged since. How many are still actually used is open to speculation, some are in the sound directories and such though. So, it can reasonably be assumed that at least for the PC's launch date in the US almost 3 years later (Oct. 2003), it was likely still using something tied to the PS2 somehow (or at least something to enable a PC to process PS2 specific code) to run certain PS2 specific assets and/or assemblie(s) that have not changed since they were last compiled during the lengthy PS2 development cycle.

All of this has been discussed and debated to the ends of the earth and back, but in the end it has been agreed (in general, there are still skeptics of the theories, as is human nature) that there is a portion that is PS2 specific that has remained unchanged over the years.

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Even if the PS2 was not set as the lowest common hardware in the platform pool and the source was compiled in something higher that integrates fully with the PC environment like C++ and such, that source would STILL have to take into account the limitations of the PS2 so when it is compiled DOWN to the PS2 assembly code, it doesn't overstep the confines of the PS2's registers. This is basically what happened with FFXIV and the PS3 (went hogwild in PC version only to find it won't "fit" right on the PS3, and have to revamp), so it is possible that is another way they did it.

But either way, one simple fact remains. The original source upon which all of this was built off of IS restricted by the limits of the hardware expected in the PS2. So, just drop kicking everyone playing on a PS2 doesn't mean they get to immediately ramp everything up for the other platforms. They have to go all the way back to source and recompile. Even then, that's just the core engine--all the other assets may still have limiations (like those crappy ground textures) and would also need to be updated to satiate the lust for HD at that point. Effectively, you would be rebuilding the game in a sense

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Originally Posted by RAIST

common industry practices. you don't typically compile apps seperately for each and every release of java from 3.0 all the way up to 6.x. You pick one assembly release to compile with and set that as the minimum requirement. You let the JRE's handle everything else outside of what is handled by the core logic in the compiled assembly.

It has been discussed adnauseum by people who have picked the files apart laboriosly (as in people who developed third party tools) and have posted to the effect that there appears to be a core PS2 logic that is run through a "wrapper" of sorts, hooking into the various API's and such specific to the environment it is running in.

Research also confirms over 400 files (roughly 64MB worth, just ran the search and actually got 448) on the hard drive (a lot of ROM and DAT) that predate even the PS2 launch by over a year--many show Dec. 18, 2000. Those files were pulled off optical media and added to my system at the time of install and have remained unchanged since. How many are still actually used is open to speculation, some are in the sound directories and such though. So, it can reasonably be assumed that at least for the PC's launch date in the US almost 3 years later (Oct. 2003), it was likely still using something tied to the PS2 somehow (or at least something to enable a PC to process PS2 specific code) to run certain PS2 specific assets and/or assemblie(s) that have not changed since they were last compiled during the lengthy PS2 development cycle.

All of this has been discussed and debated to the ends of the earth and back, but in the end it has been agreed (in general, there are still skeptics of the theories, as is human nature) that there is a portion that is PS2 specific that has remained unchanged over the years.

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Yes it's obvious that it uses a wrapper, many multi platform applications do it this way in fact. (common core code that uses platform specific front end renderers) But I find it difficult to believe that they would write a PS2 VU emulation engine when just replacing the VU machine instructions in their source code with Shader Model 1.0 and some X86 code to handle what Shader Model 1.0 isn't capable of (surprisingly the PS2 VUs were actually more capable than Shader Model 1.0) would be much easier and simpler to implement and would have the same end result. Also remember that FFXI ran on PC's from 11 years ago, emulating PS2 hardware, even only parts of it is a pretty tall order for a Pentium 3.

yeah... but it is just so old... and SE has been soooo resistent to change. how long have we been able to exceed 1024 resolutions and they just recently released updated text ffs. 2160 resolution monitors are already in the market. Granted...not many are going to pay the price for them, but they are out there.

Just don't think SE would see the investment would be worth the time--they even scrapped the freaking DX update a couple years back.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

yeah... but it is just so old... and SE has been soooo resistent to change. how long have we been able to exceed 1024 resolutions and they just recently released updated text ffs. 2160 resolution monitors are already in the market. Granted...not many are going to pay the price for them, but they are out there.

Just don't think SE would see the investment would be worth the time--they even scrapped the freaking DX update a couple years back.

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Those auto scaling buttons in the title screen are actually a pretty big change to FFXI's UI code when you stop to think about it. It can't just be something they slapped together by changing a few scripts.

Take a screenshot of the title screen at two different resolutions then scale one to match the size of the other and overlay them. The buttons and the security token logo now scale with resolution to remain the same size relative to the screen regardless of resolution. And I suspect that they plan to eventually implement this throughout the UI. This required some work and I doubt they're just going to leave it at the title screen.

I think SE said somewhere that they plan to slowly redo the whole UI for PC/360, the next step would likely be HD Status icons.

Also SE said about the UI Redesign when they stated we might be getting to see the hidden stats like Ranged Attack, Acc etc.

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Originally Posted by Fearforever

I think SE said somewhere that they plan to slowly redo the whole UI for PC/360, the next step would likely be HD Status icons.

Also SE said about the UI Redesign when they stated we might be getting to see the hidden stats like Ranged Attack, Acc etc.

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They did icons already.

I just want them to nuke POL and they can keep their PS2 limitations for eternity.

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

They did icons already.

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They only did the icons next to your character name though.

Just want to point out to those of you who can read Japanese, they JP player base made a relatively large thread demanding the death of the PS2 and an updated version as well. Kinda craps all over the "but the JP guys only play on PS2!" argument.

At this point, it's cheaper to buy a brand new computer capable of running FFXI than to buy a new PS2 HDD and FFXI, or a fat PS2 since they're relics. My friend bought a crappy old computer at a yard sale for 30 dollars that could play FFXI.

Guys please just please stop makeing thoudands of these threads.

While everyone in thier right mind does agree that the PS2 limits FFXI to no end.
We can't simply shut down the Support. (thu i would be for exactiy that!)

Instead of that thu:

• Why is SE stubborn about making say 1-4 PS2 Servers and could let the PC/X-Box360 Community move on.
• If the PS2 can't get more expansions y limit the rest of the ppl?

If Ps2 can't handle more new stuff give them their own Servers to life in a PS2 World.

Thanks for your time reading this :3

Dropping PS2 support or segregating PS2 players isn't feasible. Not because of potential the revenue loss, but because to actually upgrade the game to bypass PS2 limitations would more than likely requiring scrapping the pile of spaghetti code and redoing the source code from scratch.

People need to stop being dumb with their suggestions and just clamor for SE to start rewriting the game engine itself.

I believe JP button said only 30% of the JP playerbase uses PS2 and even then how many of them wouldnt upgrade if they had a small incentive to do so. I'm sure they all have a PS3 or a PC

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Originally Posted by Cahlum

I believe JP button said only 30% of the JP playerbase uses PS2 and even then how many of them wouldnt upgrade if they had a small incentive to do so. I'm sure they all have a PS3 or a PC

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ya as I said, most of those "ps2" users are just using it out of convenience (ie. they have a pc but already had the game on the ps2).



People also need to keep in mind that you can play the ps2 version on the ps3, but will still call themselves "ps2 players" (because there is no "real" ps3 version). So that 30% is probably even smaller as a lot are probably already on the ps3 as is.

I hope people will never stop making these threads. :]


Do I wish they would re-do the game with OpenGL and all kind of other goodies (OK you m$ lovers can have DX option, too), more effective engine that actually knows how to use the computer well?

Yes, I do.

Could they keep the PS2 support while doing this on the side?

Yes, they could.

The thing is, I think, that they don't have enough people to pull off this kind of a feat, and it would take too much money to make it happen (in other words, the gals and guys in charge do not thing it would be profitable). It's quite simple like that, and yes, I might be completely wrong but it's how I think of it.

That said, I don't really see PS2 being dropped unless the game stays profitable for many, MANY years to come, and the devices simply become rare enough in existence/use.


There are many things they could do, but likely will not.
They did think about making XI into XIV, so to speak, even so that you could step in from your Mog House. However they decided it would be better to just do a whole different game instead of re-making this one.

I am glad of this, because it likely would have meant too many changes all in all, not limited to a more effective and plain better engine and et ceteras.


But yeah, I think I already went for too long.
Blubb.

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Originally Posted by Eri

Guys please just please stop makeing thoudands of these threads.

While everyone in thier right mind does agree that the PS2 limits FFXI to no end.
We can't simply shout down the Support. (thu i would be for exactiy that!)

Instead of that thu:

• Why is SE stubborn about making say 1-4 PS2 Servers and could let the PC/X-Box360 Community move on.
• If the PS2 can get more expansions y limit the rest of the ppl?

If Ps2 cant handle more new stuff give them their own Servers to life in a PS2 World.

Thanks for your time reading this :3

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I had touched on this track of thought in one of these older threads... think it was during the earthquake downtime.

They could start development on a new version JUST for the 360/PC clients only, and make a formal announcement they were doing so, and that it would be tied in with an all new expansion opening up new areas and such projected to be released in say late 2012 or 2013 (or maybe not even give any indicated time frame, just that it was in development would suffice). In that announcement they could state that this new content would be restricted to only 360/PC clients due to limitations of the PS2 architecture--wouldn't even need to list the limitations, I think it would be fairly obvious that the PS2 simply lacks in power compared to newer technology simple because of it's age. They could offer some sort of special offer for people with content ID's bound to the PS2 versions to get a DLC version for Windows or order a new install disc for the 360 version. Over time as development progressed they could leak screenshot and videos showcasing updated graphics and the new zones to wet people's appetites. People who wanted access to that new content would naturally migrate to that platform eventually.Then, after a while, if a sufficient amount of PS2 users have migrated to newer technology (I'm sure they could quantify this within their own system)--they could announce that they would no longer officially support the PS2 as a platform after a certain date, and they would only issue updates for the PS2 to correct specific bugs found in it's last officially supported content release and that after another later date they would no longer issue any more updates for the PS2 at all (policy for many companies like MS and IBM, among others). Depending on the complexity of the system at that point, they could even go further to announce a date when PS2 clients would be denied acces to the servers at all.

This is a common strategy for migration in the grand scheme of things like OS and fully integrated software suites. The big questions is if FFXI holds enough longevity to justify making such a move at this late a stage in it's lifespan. For something like Windows, MAC OS, MS-OFFICE, LANSA, Databases and such--it's a no brainer. But a 10yr old MMO is a different animal.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

....people with content ID's bound to the PS2 versions .....

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Content ID are not bound to any System. They are bound to Regions only. there are US JP and EU ID's there is no such thing as a Ps2 ID.... at least that what i learned while playing around. If thats wrong enlighten me with the truth!

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Originally Posted by Eri

Content ID are not bound to any System. They are bound to Regions only. there are US JP and EU ID's there is no such thing as a Ps2 ID.... at least that what i learned while playing around. If thats wrong enlighten me with the truth!

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I think maybe he meant only having the discs for the ps2 not the content IDs? (just guessing)

But ya IDs aren't system specific by any means. I play on the ps2/PC all the time with the same accounts depending on whether or not I want to sit on the couch.

SE is well within their rights to dump this by now.

They don't have any binding obligation to even bother updating the PS2.

Secondly, I'm wondering why they don't just add PC specific updates rather than PS2. If people feel it's unfair they could always upgrade their system :|

It's not fair that such a great game, is being held back and pinned down to a wall rather than being allowed to really manifest graphically, as well as comfortably into a newer age.

I really hope in time, they do choose to leave behind the PS2, and or at least keep the PS2 limitations, to the PS2. It wouldn't take away from the player base that plays on PS2. However, even PS2 players realize that the limitations hold the game back, and would like for the game to be better.

Yet, understand that they won't see a better game on PS2, ever. I'd say it's more along the lines of "We don't have the man power to invest, more time into further developing 11 past what we already do." much more than, "PS2 Limitations" ^-^;

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Originally Posted by Romanova

I think maybe he meant only having the discs for the ps2 not the content IDs? (just guessing)

But ya IDs aren't system specific by any means. I play on the ps2/PC all the time with the same accounts depending on whether or not I want to sit on the couch.

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Regardless, there are ways to identify how they are connecting. Even something as simple as the registared MAC address. They have a means to ID the system when it checks for updates. So it could be something they integrate only in the POL client that the PS2 downloads.

Granted, some could spoof MAC on a PC I guess... but if they are that hard up to save $5, $10, or $20 to buy a PC release.... Integrating it with the PS2 POL client would be the most likely way to set it up.

Point is, it could be done.

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Originally Posted by Amador

SE is well within their rights to dump this by now.

They don't have any binding obligation to even bother updating the PS2.

Secondly, I'm wondering why they don't just add PC specific updates rather than PS2. If people feel it's unfair they could always upgrade their system :|

It's not fair that such a great game, is being held back and pinned down to a wall rather than being allowed to really manifest graphically, as well as comfortably into a newer age.

I really hope in time, they do choose to leave behind the PS2, and or at least keep the PS2 limitations, to the PS2. It wouldn't take away from the player base that plays on PS2. However, even PS2 players realize that the limitations hold the game back, and would like for the game to be better.

Yet, understand that they won't see a better game on PS2, ever. I'd say it's more along the lines of "We don't have the man power to invest, more time into further developing 11 past what we already do." much more than, "PS2 Limitations" ^-^;

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I get the impression they are already kind of tweaking the 360/PC clients more. Unless the PS2 clients also got the HD icons and text as well... forget the details. Just how much they can improve things on with the whole render-to-texture crap remains to be seen though (contributes to why AA doesn't work as expected on PC). Sure would be nice if more tasks could be offloaded to the GPU one day. Even my old grandpa (by todays standards, not quite a dinosaur yet) ATI 4850 is snoozing most the time.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

Regardless, there are ways to identify how they are connecting. Even something as simple as the registared MAC address. They have a means to ID the system when it checks for updates. So it could be something they integrate only in the POL client that the PS2 downloads.

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That's not a content ID thing though. I think you're confusing on what that ID actually does.

Yes you are correct that they can see what system you are accessing. But that has zero to do with the actual content ID.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

That's not a content ID thing though. I think you're confusing on what that ID actually does.

Yes you are correct that they can see what system you are accessing. But that has zero to do with the actual content ID.

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That particular brain fart has already been pointed out and corrected on the record.

I'm simply used to dealing with software who's licensing is regionally assigned (Microsoft and IBM did this for years, not sure if they still do as I haven't dealt with licensing as a partner for almost 5 years now), so I'm just in the habit of those things being regionally allocated.

The point is they have a mechanic in place to identify how a user is connected that can be used for preventing non-PS2 users from getting a free copy of the software if they wanted to extend an offer for a copy of another paltform's software for the express purpose of migrating away from the PS2.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

I get the impression they are already kind of tweaking the 360/PC clients more. Unless the PS2 clients also got the HD icons and text as well... forget the details. Just how much they can improve things on with the whole render-to-texture crap remains to be seen though (contributes to why AA doesn't work as expected on PC). Sure would be nice if more tasks could be offloaded to the GPU one day. Even my old grandpa (by todays standards, not quite a dinosaur yet) ATI 4850 is snoozing most the time.

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PS2 didn't get the Updates on Icons. They will also not get further UI Cosmetics. As thu as long as SE doesnt support DX11 and adds Highres Textures.... (Granted some Areas in like Empi Paradox (Abys) look awsome) .....

It wouldn't even be hard to add Higher res Textures for PC/Xbox... DX is another Story..... if they wanted they could Buff PC and Xbox as mutch that every PS2 Player would swich Systems only for the looks. Mainly there are codeing issues thu... like stack sizes..... limited Autotranslate..... such things..... if they could change stuff without changeing the code entirely they would've done it most likeley unless the PS2 hasn't got room for that =P

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Originally Posted by RAIST

The point is they have a mechanic in place to identify how a user is connected that can be used for preventing non-PS2 users from getting a free copy of the software if they wanted to extend an offer for a copy of another paltform's software for the express purpose of migrating away from the PS2.

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ummm yes and no though. Yes you couldn't say install FFXI on the Wii because of what you just explained. But we're talking Ps2-> Ps3 here which is completely possible even considering what you said.

You can already play ffxi on the ps3 (I do). The only thing that stops them is things like hardrives n' ram n' such (<-basic) which would go directly to the ps3 anyway. They have the capacity to create more memory than a ps2 can handle program-wise, but they obviously wouldn't because people wouldn't be able to install it. You'd still be able to install it on your ps3 though.

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Originally Posted by Romanova

ummm yes and no though. Yes you couldn't say install FFXI on the Wii because of what you just explained. But we're talking Ps2-> Ps3 here which is completely possible even considering what you said.

You can already play ffxi on the ps3 (I do). The only thing that stops them is things like hardrives n' ram n' such (<-basic) which would go directly to the ps3 anyway. They have the capacity to create more memory than a ps2 can handle program-wise, but they obviously wouldn't because people wouldn't be able to install it. You'd still be able to install it on your ps3 though.

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but it would still be using the PS2 specific installation media and client, and get the PS2 specific updates. So, it would still be identifiable as a PS2 user from the client software perspective. Running FFXI on a Mac via Windows is still running the Windows client, not a Mac client.

Edit:
The point of the post is to isolate the PS2 client from the rest, provide the incentive to migrate by developing only for the higher platforms, provide additional incentive by providing an offer to get the software either for free or at cost and using something specific to the PS2 client to ID them to avoid fraud abuse, and gently phase out support for the PS2 client.