Avatar AI problems that need to be addressed

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Even though quite a few BLM told you, you still ignore the cure factor. Thanks for plugging your ears. Appreciate it.

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A few more BLMs told you that the BLM would cure themselves to save themselves, and that the WHM, not the SMN, should be main healing everyone.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Then how about fixing it so Avatar's don't auto-attack sleeping mobs? Who even wants their avatars auto-attacking sleeping mobs?

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Nobody, except Korpg who enjoys playing the devils advocate to get post counts.

Because post counts really matter?

But I expect you of all people Mala to know how to not have the avatar attack sleeping mobs....heck, I even expect Dallas, and he isn't a SMN, to know how to not get on top of the hate list.

Dallas typically drops off the hate list every now and then, lol.

You are as bad as Dallas Korpg. Go away troll.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

You are as bad as Dallas Korpg. Go away troll.

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Because I think that you have a bad idea and have given your the reason why I think your idea is a bad one?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Because I think that you have a bad idea and have given your the reason why I think your idea is a bad one?

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You stated yourself that there is never a situation in which you would want an avatar to auto-attack a sleeping mob, therefor you have no reason to object to that aspect being fixed. You are arguing to argue.

Go away troll.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Because post counts really matter?

But I expect you of all people Mala to know how to not have the avatar attack sleeping mobs....heck, I even expect Dallas, and he isn't a SMN, to know how to not get on top of the hate list.

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I know how to avoid it. But that is like going over to the PUP forums and entering their 200+ posts long thread about Puppet AI and say "But simply do not fight monsters who cast debuffs. AI problem with -na spell over cures solved! It was never any issue to begin with! Just 100% of all PUPs being idiots"

Go ahead. I'll wait for your return. We'll have plenty laughs at PUPs who don't know how to avoid AI issues.

He's a troll. Ignore him and move alone.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

You stated yourself that there is never a situation in which you would want an avatar to auto-attack a sleeping mob, therefor you have no reason to object to that aspect being fixed. You are arguing to argue.

Go away troll.

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You don't understand. The only way for SE to "fix" your problem is to take away the auto-aggression of avatars when the SMN is on top of the hate list. Basically, you are asking SE to take away the aspect of SMN that allows most SMNs to solo, including you when you killed that Dragon NM in Ifrit's Cauldron. Ask yourself this, how can you have beaten that dragon if you had to assault every time you had to resummon your avatar? Do you think that you could have survived the hit(s) each time because the avatar couldn't automatically hit the NM?

Maybe there is another reason why avatars hit sleeping mobs. Maybe they aren't doing it because the mobs are sleeping *gasp* Learn from your mistakes instead of asking SE to solve your problems for you.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You don't understand. The only way for SE to "fix" your problem is to take away the auto-aggression of avatars when the SMN is on top of the hate list. Basically, you are asking SE to take away the aspect of SMN that allows most SMNs to solo, including you when you killed that Dragon NM in Ifrit's Cauldron. Ask yourself this, how can you have beaten that dragon if you had to assault every time you had to resummon your avatar? Do you think that you could have survived the hit(s) each time because the avatar couldn't automatically hit the NM?

Maybe there is another reason why avatars hit sleeping mobs. Maybe they aren't doing it because the mobs are sleeping *gasp* Learn from your mistakes instead of asking SE to solve your problems for you.

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Once again arguing to argue. You are wrong, and don't know anything about game design or game programming. If PUP pets can be taught not to cast silence on mobs that don't have MP, SMN pets can be taught not to auto-attack sleeping mobs. It isn't an all or nothing thing. Programming AI can be very flexible. It's called a state machine. Look it up some time. It would be very easy to create a 'Mob is asleep' state as well as a 'Mob is awake' state and have two different auto-attack behaviors associated to them. And before you start arguing that then avatars would never be able to hit slept mobs, this state would only apply to the first auto-attack, and not from a separate state using assault. I've made state machines and not only is what I am asking to do possible, but it's only a few lines of code.

But you never will admit to being wrong, even when presented with evidence proving you are. Go away troll.

You realize that it would take a whole lot of work for something that can be solved by the player's intelligence.

There is already a solution to not having the avatars attack the sleeping mob, why should SE have to fix this problem if you are the only one unable to learn from your own mistakes?

Don't
Be
On
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You realize that it would take a whole lot of work for something that can be solved by the player's intelligence.

There is already a solution to not having the avatars attack the sleeping mob, why should SE have to fix this problem if you are the only one unable to learn from your own mistakes?

Don't
Be
On
Top
Of
The
Hate
List

It is as simple as that.

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I'm not the only one who thinks it's a problem.

Ever notice one of the tags for this topic is "korpg shits again"? People don't like you, don't agree with you, don't want you around. Go away troll.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

I'm not the only one who thinks it's a problem.

Ever notice one of the tags for this topic is "korpg shits again"? People don't like you, don't agree with you, don't want you around. Go away troll.

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You don't even know what a troll is, because you call me a troll, yet use a troll as an example as somebody who doesn't like me.

So what if a few people don't like me, does that hurt me at all?

>_>; bickering? srsly?

some people like it, some people don't.
in which case it isn't a real problem because some (in fact many) people can still use it in a positive way.

Also I'm of the belief that its better with than without it.

You can control a situation where your avatar 'misbehaves' simply be releasing it or finding some way to shed main hate - thru a THF or having someone else in the party do something to gain enmity. And in such situations Retreat works too.
Or in the more extreme case, wear some Enmity - gear. Hate is the main mechanic at play, and there are so many ways to control it.

However, you can never get your avatar to automatically attack a mob that is chasing you - not from any distance, and not without using a JA that may be putting yourself in potential risk due to range or hate/aggro issues.

In other words, its a unique ability that SMN has been given, and is meant to be a feature of the job.
Between the 2 sides of the argument, you can easily solve the issue of waking slept mobs without ever touching auto-attack mechanics, but can never auto-attack in any other way.

Never heard of the phrase "It's not a bug, it's a feature" huh?

The point is, enough people don't like it. You can claim that we are playing SMN wrong, but it's the same as saying "Well, PUPs should just fight mobs with no NP. It's a feature of their job!"

It's a problem. People see it as a problem. I am not the only one.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Never heard of the phrase "It's not a bug, it's a feature" huh?

The point is, enough people don't like it. You can claim that we are playing SMN wrong, but it's the same as saying "Well, PUPs should just fight mobs with no NP. It's a feature of their job!"

It's a problem. People see it as a problem. I am not the only one.

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You are the only one who sees this as a problem.

They would "like" for avatars to not attack sleeping mobs, but they have figured out how to not have the avatars attack the sleeping mobs period. Only you haven't figured out, and it strongly seems like you won't ever figure it out, even though everyone has told you how to do it.

Don't cure bomb the BLMs after they sleep mobs. It is as simple as that. Either that or quit SMN and go as WHM.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

The point is, enough people don't like it.

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sure doesn't seem that way, even in here.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You are the only one who sees this as a problem.

They would "like" for avatars to not attack sleeping mobs, but they have figured out how to not have the avatars attack the sleeping mobs period. Only you haven't figured out, and it strongly seems like you won't ever figure it out, even though everyone has told you how to do it.

Don't cure bomb the BLMs after they sleep mobs. It is as simple as that. Either that or quit SMN and go as WHM.

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"My way of playing SMN is the only way. If you don't play it my way, you are wrong. Everyone agrees with me."

Let's quote some people then, who 'agree with you'.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Avatars Auto-attack an Enemy that is aggressive to the SMN, Meaning if you're on top of the hate list the Avatar will go after said mob. Its not as simple as "Dont do it".

Its not a giant problem but it is noticeable in group scenarios, especially in places like New Dynamis, or the like.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Eh! If I'm BLM/RDM or BLM/SCH in Einherjar, SMN/WHM has a tier of Cure over me. I'd rather have them heal me after I get beaten on/sleepga than have to Cure 3 myself twice as many times, and it's not hard to argue that casting Cure on me is likely the most useful thing they could be doing at that moment. There are situations where it would be nice for SMN to not have to choose between keeping a pet out (like giving Diabolos's Favor to Black Mages) and being able to heal whoever (like healing Black Mages).

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Actually Korpg, it's a stupid design flaw that shouldn't have made it past RotZ beta almost a decade ago.

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Originally Posted by hiko

for avatar auto attack: just add a new command like /autotarget but pet oriented you can turn on-off

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I wouldn't mind some slight AI update to make them avoid slept mobs. Shouldn't be that hard to program.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

To be fair, Tarage does have a point. Avatar's auto-attacking monsters is great, but you should have the ability to turn it off or a Stay command. It's not a huge problem, but there are times when it can be annoying.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

I hated summoning my avatars back in the old dynamis days after the blm had done sleepgas on big pulls and I had hate from curing. only to summon an avatar and have it float off and start waking things up and watching blm drop like flies. Though.... I was a master of MPK in those respects :D

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That's from just two threads. I could go dredge up more, but my point is made. I am NOT alone in this. I am NOT the only one who thinks this is a problem. But this has never been about that has it? Even with so many people telling you they don't like it, you don't care. Even if it is a legitimate suggestion, you don't care. You just want to argue, and increase your post count, and fluff your ego.

That is why you are a troll. Go away.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

"My way of playing SMN is the only way. If you don't play it my way, you are wrong. Everyone agrees with me."

Let's quote some people then, who 'agree with you'.

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Obviously reading is not your strong suit. Not once did I say that my way or the highway. That was Dallas. What I am saying is that you are asking for "solution" to a problem that A) isn't a problem for most because most SMNs are actually smarter than you and don't curebomb the BLMs so they can be on top of the hate list and B) will create a bigger problem because it takes away the best thing about a SMN, especially when it comes to soloing NMs.

I bolded the main points of my argument for when you tl:dr. Like you have been doing.

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That's from just two threads. I could go dredge up more, but my point is made. I am NOT alone in this. I am NOT the only one who thinks this is a problem.

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Karbuncle and Byrth also stated that the problem lies with the SMN being on top of the hate list. You had to cut those out of the quotes because they would hurt your argument in the first place. hiko was making a suggestion, not agreeing with you. Mala thinks that spirits should be updated to be better pets than avatars, so any of his arguments are flawed anyway. Sasaraixx wants a Stay command, which SE specifically said that they won't do for SMN, and that Stay will be a BST only trait. Tannlore has no idea, like you, about enmity control or hate issues, and it shows from that quote you made. He, as do you, think that avatars just suddenly start attacking slept mobs, which most people, not just SMNs alone, know that is not the case.

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But this has never been about that has it? Even with so many people telling you they don't like it, you don't care. Even if it is a legitimate suggestion, you don't care. You just want to argue, and increase your post count, and fluff your ego.

That is why you are a troll. Go away.

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If anything, the only one who is a troll, even by your definitions, is you. But you are also a noob, which by definition is: somebody who refuses to learn and blindly accepts the first thing he sees as truth.

You are the one who can't learn anything about hate control. You are the one who can't understand your own definitions, you are the one who can't even read without somebody having to bold the main points for you. You are also the one who take people's words and try to twist it for your own cause.

Also, saying that everyone agrees with you while nobody agrees with me is false also. Not only have I talked with people on this forum, I have talked to actual SMNs in this game, ones who know what they are doing, ones who have their own playstyle, and ones who's playstyle are very similar to yours. I told them your side of the argument, including just making it so avatars won't auto-attack sleeping mobs, but still attack everything else, and they all agreed with me.

Your suggestion is a lazy-man's suggestion because since you can't figure out hate controls, you want to bend around your problem so you don't have to learn. That is your main problem: instead of fixing it, you make it so people has to work around your problem for you.

But that is not how SE works. They are not going to make it so avatars are going to not attack sleeping mobs. They are either going to do nothing or take away the whole auto-aggression aspect of avatars. If they listen to you, you are going to make 75% of the SMN population (not those who burned, those who actually leveled the job from scratch) angry because you took away the only aspect of being able to solo harder NMs away from them, all because you are too lazy to figure out a simple puzzle.

I love how you keep assuming I don't know about hate control, or how not to get on top of the hate list. What you refuse to acknowledge, and what all those people have said, is that while you CAN do it, it is very annoying and in some situations detrimental to the party as a whole.

I cut the quotes so I wouldn't make a 300 line tl;dr. Every single quote I quoted was one that agreed that something needed to be done. I took nothing out of context, and you can even click back to each one and see that I'm not lying.

I love how you speak for SE too. "They won't do your fix and even if they did they would screw it up for everyone." You are such a happy joyful person that you have to bring everyone else down too huh. Yeah, keep assuming that I know no one in game. Keep assuming that they don't agree with me. Keep being wrong.

But hey, if you honestly don't believe that SE will do anything about my idea, and you recognize that there is no instance where having an avatar auto-attack a sleeping mob on it's own is a good thing, why keep arguing with me about it? Why not prove that you aren't a troll and walk away? You can't. And don't say "Why don't you walk away yourself", because the reason I won't walk away is I want this fix. A fix that doesn't harm you in the slightest. But do keep inventing imaginary arguments. First you misunderstand what I want, then you lie and claim that what I want will harm SMN, then even after you admit it won't you claim that it's just the lazy man's fix. You can't just let me have my suggestion, because you are a troll.

Go.
Away.
Troll.

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Mala thinks that spirits should be updated to be better pets than avatars, so any of his arguments are flawed anyway.

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More like I'm asking for spirits to be better than puppets. But I'm used to discussing these things with people who exaggerate everything. Go ahead, claim I want G.Axe A+ skill while you are at it, since I think SMNs should melee.