[DEV1234]Lift the delay/haste cap

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Just because "new content won't be in abyssea" doesn't mean that abyssea itself will no longer be of significance or importance. You say "abysssea is done" as if we suddenly won't be doing it anymore.

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Abyssea isn't of significant importance now when it comes to gear why should it be a benchmark at 95 or 99 for anyone?

That's like telling a BLM once you hit 320 Elemental Skill and 120 INT you're good to go for Voidwatch because that was the "benchmark" for Sky.

Haste is king inside Abyssea because Atma/Cruor make up for the rest, outside Abyssea you aren't rocking +40-70 all stats naked.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Hundred Fists for everyone! Nothing will survive longer than the time it takes to engage!

Posting in a troll thread!

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haha i like this! :) currently doing the multi-strike magian for my PUP H2H, 2-4 hit (along with double attack making it 2-8) i will be like a hundred fist MNK 24/7! :P haha

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Abyssea isn't of significant importance now when it comes to gear why should it be a benchmark at 95 or 99 for anyone?

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Oh really? For many jobs it offers a lot of the best gear in the game. When did this change?

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Haste is king inside Abyssea because Atma/Cruor make up for the rest, outside Abyssea you aren't rocking +40-70 all stats naked.

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Assuming reasonable amounts of accuracy, haste is the primo number 1 kickass stat for everyone that ever swings a weapon everywhere, not just in Abyssea. It shouldn't be that way, but it pretty much is. You don't need atma/cruor buffs for haste to be the best stat to maximize.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Oh really? For many jobs it offers a lot of the best gear in the game. When did this change?

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~_~ Inside Abyssea my naked WAR/SAM Caps ACC with Cruor + RR... Thus gear inside isn't relevant because it will give me minimal gains(aside from Haste) because inside Abyssea I'm a demi-god naked... add in the best gear and I'm a slightly better demi-god. Outside Abyssea that's a very different story.

The gear you can get in Abyssea has nothing to do with using Abyssea NMs as a benchmark in the future. Yes that gear could be used in a given benchmark but the 2 things are independent.

Edit: My WAR caps on trash mobs not everything before someone takes the statement overboard.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Assuming reasonable amounts of accuracy, haste is the primo number 1 kickass stat for everyone that ever swings a weapon everywhere, not just in Abyssea. It shouldn't be that way, but it pretty much is. You don't need atma/cruor buffs for haste to be the best stat to maximize.

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And if you Accuracy isn't over 80% you'd be better off with ACC over Haste in a lot of slots. Depending on the job. This is something that will come up outside Abyssea.

Edit: If your swings are landing for 0-10 damage you'd better look into STR/ATK over haste. hitting for 0 80% faster does nothing for your TP gain.

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Edit: If your swings are landing for 0-10 damage you'd better look into STR/ATK over haste. hitting for 0 80% faster does nothing for your TP gain.

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I couldn't agree more, but in the vast majority of all situations, everyone constantly sings the praises of haste and looks down on you if you don't have the maximum amount of haste possible.

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~_~ Inside Abyssea my naked WAR/SAM Caps ACC with Cruor + RR... Thus gear inside isn't relevant because it will give me minimal gains(aside from Haste) because inside Abyssea I'm a demi-god naked...

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How does you being amazing naked have anything to do with this gear or that gear being the best gear or not?

So I can one shot Abyssean trash mobs with victory smite. Does that mean that the gear I get in there is not the best, just because I'm already "strong enough" ?

When people say Abyssea is over, they are not saying there is nothing there worth doing or having. What they are saying is, if you have a competent group, within 3-4 months everyone should have everything useful for every job they like playing and you can quit going there. Any competent group that started with even the Heros release is currently struggling to find stuff to do, or everyone has 4-5 empyreans and counting.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

How does you being amazing naked have anything to do with this gear or that gear being the best gear or not?

So I can one shot Abyssean trash mobs with victory smite. Does that mean that the gear I get in there is not the best, just because I'm already "strong enough" ?

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If you're aiming for the "best" inside abyssea as your goal when there are harder things in the game right now then yes the gear you get isn't of value in there. With or without Tantra set +2 you could 1 shot a lot of mobs inside abyssea, with or without it you could do a lot of damage to NMs inside abyssea. Because of Cruor and Atma the difference between an Sky MNK and a Tantra MNK isn't huge. The Tantra MNK would win but not by a drastic lead. That's my point as to why Abyssea is a bad event to use as a Benchmark.

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If you're aiming for the "best" inside abyssea as your goal when there are harder things in the game right now then yes the gear you get isn't of value in there.

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It's not a question of "of value" it's a quesiton of wheher it's the best gear or not. If it doesn't matter whether it's the best or not is a completely different topic. And I'm not aiming for only being the best in abyssea, and I'm sure no one else in this thread is either. Abyssea produces some amazing gear for many jobs. There's no stipulation on any of it that you can only use it in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not a question of "of value" it's a quesiton of wheher it's the best gear or not. If it doesn't matter whether it's the best or not is a completely different topic. And I'm not aiming for only being the best in abyssea, and I'm sure no one else in this thread is either. Abyssea produces some amazing gear for many jobs. There's no stipulation on any of it that you can only use it in abyssea.

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You're arguing that everyone sees "Haste > All" when it comes to gear at least until hitting 26%. If I'm not mistaken.

This is only true inside Abyssea or against old content.

And it is true in Voidwatch with a BRD/COR capping your ACC and/or ATK so you can focus on Haste. The thing is if you don't have a BRD and/or COR "Haste > All" won't be true in many cases.

The only way you can have that apply inside Abyssea is if you don't use Atma and/or Cruor, which would be dumb not opportunistic like using a BRD or COR is outside. That's why using Abyssea content as a benchmark for what is the "best" gear will give you bad results.

tl:dr Gear is situational.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

How does you being amazing naked have anything to do with this gear or that gear being the best gear or not?

So I can one shot Abyssean trash mobs with victory smite. Does that mean that the gear I get in there is not the best, just because I'm already "strong enough" ?

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easy just take 2set (both same haste)
set one: lot off acc and attack , Nhit for ws
set two: n-1 build, no acc nor att,
wich is better?

if you're acc caped and have decent atack while naked 2nd is better
if you have crapp acc/att while naked first win.

Um sorry, I'm not seeing what that has to do with "Being awesome while naked means that no gear is the best just because I don't need it in order to be awesome."

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That's why using Abyssea content as a benchmark for what is the "best" gear will give you bad results.

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I'm not using abyssea as a bench mark for gear. Saying that good gear comes from abyssea does not mean that I'm using abyssea itself to determine whether the gear is good or not.

A lot of gear OBTAINED IN ABYSSEA is great WHEN USED OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

A lot of gear OBTAINED IN ABYSSEA is great WHEN USED OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA.

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This has nothing to do with gearing for Abyssea assuming you're doing it right.

When fSTR, dDEX, ACC, and ATK for some jobs with food/JAs are all capped because of Cruor and/or Atma you gear very differently than you would when any of those aren't true, and drastically different when none of those are true.

Yes doing Abyssea gets you some of the best gear in the game at the moment. That doesn't mean that the gear that is the best inside abyssea is the best outside of it.

Using your "ACC is capped inside abyssea" comment, would you do Voidwatch with 0 ACC in gear because that works inside Abyssea?

I'm gonna' have to say I don't like this one. Sorry, but I already find it annoying enough trying to cap haste on most jobs, let alone cap haste without looking like a jackass.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

I'm gonna' have to say I don't like this one. Sorry, but I already find it annoying enough trying to cap haste on most jobs, let alone cap haste without looking like a jackass.

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90% sure the only jobs that can't cap haste incredibly easily are smn blm and sch...

the rest can cap it with 4~6 pieces, most very easily obtainable

but that's beside the point.

Raising Haste is retarded, getting rid of it is even more retarded

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This has nothing to do with gearing for Abyssea assuming you're doing it right.

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You're right. It doesn't. Thats why I capitalized OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA. I'm not talking about just in abyssea. I never was. Why do you keep going back to abyssea when it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about gear OBTAINED in abyssea. Not gear USED in abyssea.

People have already been saying dont use abyssea as the benchmark, so we're not.

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90% sure the only jobs that can't cap haste incredibly easily are smn blm and sch...

the rest can cap it with 4~6 pieces, most very easily obtainable

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Which is why raising a cap that not all jobs can attain in the first place is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're right. It doesn't. Thats why I capitalized OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA. I'm not talking about just in abyssea. I never was. Why do you keep going back to abyssea when it's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about gear OBTAINED in abyssea. Not gear USED in abyssea.

People have already been saying dont use abyssea as the benchmark, so we're not.

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If you agree that Abyssea isn't a benchmark to use. Then you should agree that ACC/DEX/STR/ATK wouldn't be auto capped or near capped on new content meaning "Haste > All" is not the end all be all answer. In other words your argument about people preaching "Haste > All" in all scenarios isn't valid because smart people wouldn't say that, they'd say "Sh!ts Situational".

Haste and accuracy > all. Happy now?

You're forgetting Attack/pDif/cRatio, dDex, fStr. Things are only simple in Abyssea where practically everything is capped.

ITT: Complaining about people making everything too simple by simultaneously oversimplifying the game.

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You're forgetting Attack/pDif/cRatio, dDex, fStr.

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All things that are usually only considered on weapon skills. These stats all matter for about 0.5 seconds every time your TP reaches 100.

I might be "oversimplifying" but answer me this? Why did every melee DD at 75 wear a walmart turban? It has no accuracy, no attack, no effect on pdif, cratio, dDex, or fStr. it ONLY has haste. Speed belt? Haste. Every melee who could obtain these things used them over anything else. Why would this happen if Haste wasn't more important than most other stats most of the time?

Attack, pDif, dDex, and fStr are only considered during weapon skills?

wat.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Attack, pDif, dDex, and fStr are only considered during weapon skills?

wat.

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Wat is right. I don't see anyone stacking attack or STR or DEX during TP. Or maybe I haven't seen any competent DDs in years of playing.

By "considered," I mean considered by the player, not considered as in whether or not they actually have an effect.

Frankly, I'm not really sure whether to take you seriously or just assume you're trolling me, like everyone else on this forum, for personal entertainment value because I'm an easy target for it.

Sitting around stacking STR over Haste during TP? No. Completely ignoring the value and effects of fSTR? No one with half a brain does that.

Edit: I'm not trolling anyone. Any good player who gives half a damn about their gear will be taking all of that into account and going with whatever increases overall damage the most. I'm so sorry you have an issue with crappy players ignoring important stats. Nothing's ever going to fix that.

FFXIMath became a lot easier in Abyssea because a lot of things like Accuracy, dDex, and fStr were automatically capped with cruor buffs and atmas. Gearing became a lot simpler. As soon as we moved back outside into Voidwatch, those caps became dynamic again and gearing became complex work with a lot more variables.

Depends on your definition of stacking, obviously once you're capped (or near capped) on Haste/Accuracy depending on options you don't need anymore, and can focus on other stats.

Goes right back to shit is situational.

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Completely ignoring the value and effects of fSTR? No one with half a brain does that.

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Being aware of the effects of stats and actually using those stats are two entirely different things.

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obviously once you're capped on Haste/Accuracy

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Which is my whole point. Haste comes before everything else. No gear setup that doesn't include 26% haste or the maximum you can obtain whilst still having good accuracy can be or will ever be accepted for general purpose activity, largely because until Abyssea came along, no piece of gear that had more than 1-2% haste had much in the way of any other stats.

If you raise the maximum, the only thing that will change is the number of pieces of gear that people will have to devote to haste.

If haste on gear were eliminated, you would see a lot more diversity in the equipment worn by players. Accuracy is usually available together with other stats like STR and Attack, for instance.

That depends entirely on context.

If you don't understand that, you're making it sound very much like you don't actually have multiple gear sets for different situations. Good players do. My Monk alone has 8 different variable "modes", each of which consisting of a set for all of my actions. You're complaining about Haste making the game "too simple" when the only simple thing is the player.

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If you don't understand that, you're making it sound very much like you don't actually have multiple gear sets for different situations

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I absolutely do have different gear for different situations. The design of the game demands it. But unless you're doing something that doesn't involve meleeing, you normally max haste if at all possible whilst maintaining accuracy.

Most of the other gear sets people have are for specific job abilities, or weapon skills. Some DDs will have other special purpose sets. Key word special- not regular, general majority-of-the-time purpose.

Really, on your monk, how much of your time logged in and on the job is spent in 26% haste gear? Honest answer. and since weapon skill gear is generally only on for a split second, we'll not count that time.

The one thing I can tell you for sure is this. I've asked a lot of gear questions comparing X item that has haste and X item that doesn't, that have been responded to by elitists such as Cream_Soda (as known on this forum). The answer is dam near always "the one with haste." The more haste you have, the more effective that next percentage point is. Haste is the only stat that gets better and better for each extra point of it you have- the more of it you have, the harder it is to find a non-haste item that can compete with it.

Does Haste beat other stats point for point? Sure, most of the time. Does that mean people have to sacrifice caring about other stats to cap it, or that other stats can't beat Haste in the same slot sometimes? No. Example: Some 2H jobs have to sacrifice capped Haste in order to maintain their 5-hit builds outside Abyssea.

If you really think good players don't take things like Attack, fStr, dDex, and Accuracy into account when gearing for Voidwatch, then you aren't dealing with good players.

Edit: Monk is ridiculously easy to cap Haste on. Such that there's absolutely 0 reason for me to not have 26% Haste at all times. Why would I give it up? What's wrong with me capping my Haste? Should I not? Does that mean that I ignore my Attack? My Accuracy? My fStr, my dDex? Does that mean I don't change gear when I hit Focus, when I hit Aggressor, or when I hit Berserk to take those effects into account?

ITT: Anyone who's capping Haste obviously doesn't give a crap about anything but Haste. Just quit, you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

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Such that there's absolutely 0 reason for me to not have 26% Haste at all times.

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Because it's so easy for MNK to cap, MNK has much more leeway to get other stats without giving up haste. It's not so easy for most other jobs, which take more pieces of gear to max haste, and thus have less room for obtaining other stats.

Please give me one good example of an item without haste that is at least on par with another item in the same slot that has haste.

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Anyone who's capping Haste obviously doesn't give a crap about anything but Haste.

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No, I won't quit, because that's not what I said. Capping haste is the FIRST thing anyone does. I NEVER said that other stats are irrelevant- only that people only go for them AFTER haste. If you tell me that haste isn't any mainstream melee's first priority for TP gear, I'd say you're full of it.

ITT: Elitists who flame others for their own entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Because it's so easy for MNK to cap, MNK has much more leeway to get other stats without giving up haste. It's not so easy for most other jobs.

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... That's my point. But so what? 26% Haste isn't hard to get for anyone who isn't a mage. The only people with any real trouble are 2-handers who are trying to push really STP-intensive 5-hits, or SMN/SCH/BLMs. There is nothing preventing people from hitting 26% Haste and then focusing on other stats in the rest of their gear. There are different combinations of gear that can be used to hit max Haste too =/.

I really don't see your point. Oh no, capping Haste obviously means that all other stats are worthless. Right.

Edit: You're incorrigible. Throw around generalizations all you like. Capping Haste first may not always be the best way to go as the game stands right now. It takes a good player who actually gives a damn to tell the difference. Thing is? Capping Haste just isn't that hard anyways.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Being aware of the effects of stats and actually using those stats are two entirely different things.

Which is my whole point. Haste comes before everything else. No gear setup that doesn't include 26% haste or the maximum you can obtain whilst still having good accuracy can be or will ever be accepted for general purpose activity, largely because until Abyssea came along, no piece of gear that had more than 1-2% haste had much in the way of any other stats.

If you raise the maximum, the only thing that will change is the number of pieces of gear that people will have to devote to haste.

If haste on gear were eliminated, you would see a lot more diversity in the equipment worn by players. Accuracy is usually available together with other stats like STR and Attack, for instance.

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Removing haste creates no diversity... just because you remove haste from the equation doesn't mean everything else gets randomized.

I'll give you an outdated example but its the only one I can think of without doing a ton of math to compare gear options.
Hachiman Kote > Dusk Gloves if it dropped your X-hit at 75. Knowing which stats will help better in a given situation and how to adapt gear will show you that "Haste/ACC > All" still isn't the end all be all answer.

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Oh no, capping Haste obviously means that all other stats are worthless. Right.

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YOu keep on saying this and saying this, but that's not what I'm saying. Haste is the MOST important, not the ONLY important thing.

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Edit: You're incorrigible. Throw around generalizations all you like. Capping Haste first may not always be the best way to go as the game stands right now. It takes a good player who actually gives a damn to tell the difference. Thing is? Capping Haste just isn't that hard anyways.

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Personal attacks for the loss.

You may not realize this, but very few jobs could so easily cap haste before Abyssea; those that gained the ability to still need it all over their gear in order to cap it.

It's nice to hear you say that other stats can beat haste in some circumstances, but the fact is haste is still better for most DDs most of the time. You really don't think that's a problem or a poor design decision?

I absolutely do not. And this is not before Abyssea. This is after Abyssea. And Haste is not hard to cap.

If Haste wasn't the most important stat, what would be? Accuracy? Attack? Something is always going to find a way to become the "most important" stat. Otherwise, we may as well just stack whatever gear has the highest numbers on it. All stats equal, Byakko's Haidate would be pretty awesome with +20 on them.

You're right, I'm wrong. Nice chatting with you.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're right, I'm wrong. Nice chatting with you.

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I can agree to that

Accuracy actually is a more important stat up until a certain point (with the exception of REALLY high hasye values).

2 accuracy can actually give up to a +5% increase in damage.

80% haste and floored accuracy is virtually equal to 0% haste and capped accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Accuracy actually is a more important stat up until a certain point (with the exception of REALLY high hasye values).

2 accuracy can actually give up to a +5% increase in damage.

80% haste and floored accuracy is virtually equal to 0% haste and capped accuracy.

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In that case isn't accuracy more important than haste still?

Floored haste is 20%, 80% haste is 4x attack speed, which would mean your hitting about 80% of the dps you would if you had 100% accuracy. And accuracy caps at 95%.

Maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

80% haste is 4x attack speed

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80% haste is 5x attack speed.

Out of 100 attacks capped accuracy hits 95 times

Out of 500 attacks (5x) floored accuracy hits 100 times.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

This has nothing to do with gearing for Abyssea assuming you're doing it right.

When fSTR, dDEX, ACC, and ATK for some jobs with food/JAs are all capped because of Cruor and/or Atma you gear very differently than you would when any of those aren't true, and drastically different when none of those are true.

Yes doing Abyssea gets you some of the best gear in the game at the moment. That doesn't mean that the gear that is the best inside abyssea is the best outside of it.

Using your "ACC is capped inside abyssea" comment, would you do Voidwatch with 0 ACC in gear because that works inside Abyssea?

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While new content requires more accuracy, food resolves most of these issues. Other than that, there aren't many situations where you're sacrificing less than 25% Haste options for accuracy. Furthermore, if these NMs are as difficult to melee as you're suggesting (I've only participated in new content as a mage, but the melee don't seem to have the accuracy issue you're suggesting arises; i.e. 80% or less), then I imagine they're receiving bard buffs, which will inevitably increase the utility of haste either through stacking delay reduction or covering massive accuracy deficits.