The real problem with PLD

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Originally Posted by Vagrua

Aegis helps some with the -mdt on A LOT of new NMs, but plds can still reach the 50% cap with gear.

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Aegis now passes the 50% cap.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Aegis now passes the 50% cap.

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Yes, I already knew that.

Edit: Would it be better if I would have specified the cap for everyone besides Aegis users?

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

It's called Flash.

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Yes, but if pld were to receive their own provoke, then they could try out other sub jobs which might be more beneficial over /war and /nin.

Pld have their own provoke it's called cure. What other subs do you want to try? You should be using the sub that has you taking the least amount of damage on hard shit. Less damage taken = more enmity retained = a better tank.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

Pld have their own provoke it's called cure. What other subs do you want to try? You should be using the sub that has you taking the least amount of damage on hard shit. Less damage taken = more enmity retained = a better tank.

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Well:

/MNK comes with hp boost/Subtle Blow III/Chakra/Dodge/Focus/Counter

/BLU comes with Heat butt/Blitzstrahl/Cocoon/Metallic Body/Auto Regen/Beast Killer/Lizard Killer

/DRG comes with Jumps and Conserve TP

/DNC comes with Violent flourish/Evasion bonus II/Subtle Blow II/Healing Waltz/Curing Waltz

/COR comes with Resist Paralyze III/Monk's or Evoker's roll

/THF comes with Treasure Hunter II/ Resist Gravity II/Gilfinder/Flee/SA TA

/BRD comes with Resist Silence III/Mage's Ballad

/SMN comes with Resist Slow II/ Auto Refresh/Mp boost from setting sub

/SAM comes with Resist Blind III/Demon Killer/Store TP II/Zanshin/ Meditate/Third Eye/ Sekkanoki

/BST comes with Charm/Wide Scan/Amorph Killer/Lizard Killer/Bird Killer/Vermin Killer

The way I see it, you could adjust your subjob to fit many different scenarios if paladin was given provoke as an ability

Er, what does lack of Provoke have to do with Paladin being unable to sub those jobs? Provoke is just an 1800VE ability on a 30 second timer. Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping Enmity right now, and really never has if the Paladin in question knew what they were doing.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Er, what does lack of Provoke have to do with Paladin being unable to sub those jobs? Provoke is just an 1800VE ability on a 30 second timer. Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping Enmity right now, and really never has if the Paladin in question knew what they were doing.

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People are in the mindset that PLD, without provoke, can't keep hate which is why you see plds only /war mostly. If they had provoke, then they might open their mind to trying other subs. IMO /BLU or /DNC are great subs for PLD. /MNK has its uses too as do other jobs I mentioned, but you only ever see people /war or /nin mostly. At least that is how it is on Bahamut.

Those people are generally just idiots then, sorry to say. /WAR is pretty useless on PLD, and Provoke is a trivial amount of Enmity at best in the big picture. 1800VE is pretty minimal =/ and in a vacuum environment equates to 0 net Enmity gain over time. Of course, in practice, it essentially amounts to halting your VE loss over time, which is still really not so hot.

I typically Pld/Nin because it's the most sensible way to tank while avoiding taking damage, while leaving the option open to Dual Wield in any situation where a shield is overkill. There are occasions where Pld/Rdm and/or Pld/Blu become more viable, for sure. Pld/Mnk is an interesting choice as well, though I'd imagine it works out about the same as anything/MNK these days. But there's really nothing in practice that's stopping people from using these subs now for whatever effect they have. The only thing stopping most people is a complete lack of understanding of how Enmity works and a fairly ridiculous obsession with Provoke.

I thought pld/war died in 2006 o_o;;;;;

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Those people are generally just idiots then, sorry to say. /WAR is pretty useless on PLD, and Provoke is a trivial amount of Enmity at best in the big picture. 1800VE is pretty minimal =/ and in a vacuum environment equates to 0 net Enmity gain over time. Of course, in practice, it essentially amounts to halting your VE loss over time, which is still really not so hot.

I typically Pld/Nin because it's the most sensible way to tank while avoiding taking damage, while leaving the option open to Dual Wield in any situation where a shield is overkill. There are occasions where Pld/Rdm and/or Pld/Blu become more viable, for sure. Pld/Mnk is an interesting choice as well, though I'd imagine it works out about the same as anything/MNK these days. But there's really nothing in practice that's stopping people from using these subs now for whatever effect they have. The only thing stopping most people is a complete lack of understanding of how Enmity works and a fairly ridiculous obsession with Provoke.

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And thats all that needs to be said ladies and gentleman, lock this thread now.
Dead old subject is still dead and old.

Just a quick thought after reading this thread.

If SE were to:
1) Double the amount of hate PLD could accumulate over other jobs
2) Double the rate at which all jobs other than PLD's hate degrades
3) Give PLD a new form of provoke they could use at initial time of pull which cap's their hate on each new mob

Then, PLD would tank more often.

All that said, sure PLD would then be able to "tank" but they still would not have the damage output of any half decent DD tho I don't know that most anyone would care, as long as the WHM wouldn't have to work harder....but the bottom line is the mob is going to die just as fast with/without the PLD there.....currently.

As new content is added, and new HNM style nm's are made, I could see this having more value in the post-abyssea world.

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Originally Posted by Jile

That said tho, as you mention, PLD cap hate fine but so does everyone else out there. They could make the above suggestion function as the PLD using a JA which put's themselves into that all-out tanking role, so they could switch between main tank or use another JA which puts them back into a normal-job's enmity function.

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>.> Editing the 1st post simply to add emphasis to the fact the original idea was flawed if the PLD had this much hate on them 100% of the time lol. >.<

If SE were to do that, I would make sure never to bring a Paladin to anything aside from Voidwatch ever (well, I do that now for the most part, but I'd be even more careful).

Simply put, on weaker NMs/mobs, Paladin takes more damage than quite a few other jobs that deal significantly more damage. On stronger NMs/mobs, Paladin has absolutely 0 issue capping and maintaining capped hate. So really, it wouldn't reap any tangible benefits, and would doubly serve to ostracize Paladin against weaker NMs/mobs.

I'm not sure where in the world people are getting this idea that Paladin is unable to generate Enmity, or has issues capping hate. They don't. It's simply a matter of them slowing the group down both via opportunity cost, and by causing the NM to look away from the Counter-spamming Monk or Retaliating Warrior.

Yeah the idea of "always" tanking on PLD would be overkill... I'm just saying, if ppl were to seriously not want anyone else to tank but them in a group, the changes would have to be substantial.

That said tho, as you mention, PLD cap hate fine but so does everyone else out there. They could make the above suggestion function as the PLD using a JA which put's themselves into that all-out tanking role, so they could switch between main tank or use another JA which puts them back into a normal-job's enmity function.

It would solve the PLD's desire to tank, on mobs that are of potential value, vs tanking full time which would be, as you mention, suicidal lol.

I don't want Paladin to be the only viable tank.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm not sure where in the world people are getting this idea that Paladin is unable to generate Enmity, or has issues capping hate. They don't. It's simply a matter of them slowing the group down both via opportunity cost, and by causing the NM to look away from the Counter-spamming Monk or Retaliating Warrior.

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If this is indeed the case, then all you can really do is have PLD join the "reactionary trait club" in some capacity and build from there. There was an old idea I remember for a trait that was basically counter but calculated entirely through the equipped shield.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I don't want Paladin to be the only viable tank.

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Not understanding why it is you feel you must post on every single forum topic and bash every post that is out there. Why is it you can never just say "I agree with the OP" or "I think they should change xxx" You just don't want your MNK to be put on the sidelines as a tank, which is fine I understand that. We used it in Salvage years ago, and we use them now in Abyssea. Cant you just be constructive instead of negative to every single persons post. People play the game to have fun, if people want to tank with PLD let them. Are thier other tank options, yes. But this is the Paladin forum that people that play paladin give feedback to SE about how they want paladin to change for the better. As the game is now its it the most effecient tank, no. Are thier lots of other soptions out there like MNK, WAR, or NIN yes. Thats is not what we are in this forum to talk about. We are here to talk about improving Paladin, not bash it. Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Not understanding why it is you feel you must post on every single forum topic and bash every post that is out there. Why is it you can never just say "I agree with the OP" or "I think they should change xxx" You just don't want your MNK to be put on the sidelines as a tank, which is fine I understand that. We used it in Salvage years ago, and we use them now in Abyssea. Cant you just be constructive instead of negative to every single persons post. People play the game to have fun, if people want to tank with PLD let them. Are thier other tank options, yes. But this is the Paladin forum that people that play paladin give feedback to SE about how they want paladin to change for the better. As the game is now its it the most effecient tank, no. Are thier lots of other soptions out there like MNK, WAR, or NIN yes. Thats is not what we are in this forum to talk about. We are here to talk about improving Paladin, not bash it. Go to some other forums if you feel the need for post count+1 with nothing but negative feedback.

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He's not being a negative Nancy he's pointing out that people like variety. Pld tanks do well in many situations. If your group doesn't like using Pld that is their choice. Pld will never be the paramount tank unless they destroy DD jobs' tanking ability including Nin. Level more jobs enjoy different roles Pld is far more useful many other jobs that could be mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Orson

He's not being a negative Nancy he's pointing out that people like variety. Pld tanks do well in many situations. If your group doesn't like using Pld that is their choice. Pld will never be the paramount tank unless they destroy DD jobs' tanking ability including Nin. Level more jobs enjoy different roles Pld is far more useful many other jobs that could be mentioned.

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My point is that instead of saying what can or should be improved its always bash bash bash.... MNK NIN WAR is better for everything in the game blah blah blah... every post. I'm not picking a fight or anything, he has good knowledge of the game like most of us do but instead of being negative about paladin why not focus on agreeing with people or give thoughts on how to improve that job instead of the paladin is dead, paladin use useless etc etc. I would like to see his feedback on how to improve it instead of just saying its a dead job. Some of use just like playing paladin, and we try to make good use out our resources. I have MNK, WAR, NIN I can play also but I'm a career PLD so why is it such a big deal for people to like a certain job they play and to find ways to utilize it the way they want too. I pay for my game every month, nobody else, so why such a big thing about playing it the way we want to play it? SE has these forums for feedback on how to improve the game but instead people just want to bash SE all the time and all the jobs in the game.

pld is best at being a shield for the party. nobody goes out looking for a pld to damage deal. that simple. The fact of the matter is they need changes to make them first choice to tank. pld cant play a supporting role in a party either in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

My point is that instead of saying what can or should be improved its always bash bash bash.... MNK NIN WAR is better for everything in the game blah blah blah... every post. I'm not picking a fight or anything, he has good knowledge of the game like most of us do but instead of being negative about paladin why not focus on agreeing with people or give thoughts on how to improve that job instead of the paladin is dead, paladin use useless etc etc. I would like to see his feedback on how to improve it instead of just saying its a dead job. Some of use just like playing paladin, and we try to make good use out our resources. I have MNK, WAR, NIN I can play also but I'm a career PLD so why is it such a big deal for people to like a certain job they play and to find ways to utilize it the way they want too. I pay for my game every month, nobody else, so why such a big thing about playing it the way we want to play it? SE has these forums for feedback on how to improve the game but instead people just want to bash SE all the time and all the jobs in the game.

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I only post in 4 job subforums and General Discussion. I choose to post in those 4 job forums because those 4 jobs happen to be my favorite, including Paladin. Yes, believe it or not, for all of Paladin's faults that I'm constantly pointing out, I'm a career Paladin and it's easily my favorite job in the world to gear up and play.

But that doesn't make it any good for the majority of content right now. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to use it in Abyssea. And that doesn't mean I'm going to delude myself into thinking that it's better than it is, or was better before Abyssea, or that the vast majority of changes that people propose here will do anything but hurt the Paladin job.

Do I want Paladin to be the only viable tank in the world? Hell no. That's not fun, and that's not fair. I love co-tanking with other people and jobs, especially back in 2009 when people were starting to really experiment with the potential of DD tanks. Tanking with Drks is fun. Tanking with Sams is fun. Tanking with Nins is fun. Reducing Tank-class gameplay to PLD onry by simply not allowing anyone else to reach their Enmity level? That's selfish and obscene.

I'm negative to so many posts here because people just don't seem to get it. They don't seem to bother reading, or understanding, anything that's been posted before they come in to sing the same song 9,000th verse. Reading is just that bloody hard, apparently. It doesn't matter how many times the reality of the Paladin job is explained to people, as long as people are under the impression that "What the job should be in Final Fantasies or in my limited conceptual understanding of white knights" actually matters to this game, then absolutely nothing can be solved. It's not about concepts. It's not about what Paladin "should" be. It's about what Paladin is, and what can be done to improve on its strengths.

People here are so caught up about being unpopular in Abyssea. Who the hell cares if your job doesn't work well in one event? Monk was sure as hell laughed at at 3-Kings back in the day, despite consistently being one of the strongest DDs in the game. White Mage was laughed at as an EXP healer for years. Ninja was absolutely terrible and unloved once they dinged 74. How popular a job is depends entirely on context. There is absolutely no need to make every job viable/awesome for everything. That's just dumb and defeats the entire purpose of the Job system.

And then you take a look at Paladin and wonder what changed between their hey-day and now, and you know what that was? Context. Absolutely nothing else. We weren't nerfed. The rules simply changed. Paladin is terrible in Abyssea, and will always be terrible in Abyssea until the day the servers shut down and that is okay. Outside Abyssea? In real content that's made for our level? Paladin is damn good. Paladin's Empyrean shield has given the job a key to God mode. They've buffed Aegis and Burtgang to give similar god-tier buffs to the Paladins adventurous enough to acquire them. Paladin has always been able to generate and cap Enmity, and now it's even easier. There is nothing wrong with Voidwatch-and-beyond Paladin.

But you know what Paladin does not need? Provoke. Provoke is useless. To anyone who knows a darn thing about Enmity mechanics, Provoke has always been useless. Paladin does not need Enmity-generating abilities. Paladin can max Enmity extremely quickly. So why do people complain about not being able to get hate on Paladin? Probably because they're just not very good at it. Or because they're sitting on Pld/War and wondering why they can neither get hate nor survive when they get it. I hope people realize that they lose Enmity every single time they get hit. I hope they realize that they are losing significantly more Enmity than Provoke will ever net them in a million years. If they don't, it's their loss. But it's not a fault with Paladin.

You know what else Paladin doesn't need? An Enmity cap raise or Enmity adjustments. Paladin can cap hate just fine. They are extremely adept at it. Moreover, they're extremely adept at keeping their Enmity capped once it's there. So what if everyone and their mom can keep their hate capped in Abyssea? It's not so easy outside, especially when, and I'll let the class think about this one for a moment, especially when DDs are taking damage. Taking damage lowers Enmity, by a lot.

People can play their jobs however they want, it doesn't affect me. But when it comes time to look at potential adjustments and improvements to the Paladin job and people honestly think that they need a Provoke? I'm going to say otherwise, because that does affect me. A lot of the problems people have with their Paladin are with the player, not the job. The former can be fixed without damaging the job and wasting development time. But even if people don't want to bother fixing it for themselves, I'd still take extreme offense to wasting a perfectly good opportunity to improve on Paladin just because someone is too lazy or stubborn to admit that they could be doing things a better way.

@Unleashhell

I'm not saying not to provide feedback on how you'd like see the game evolve. I'm just saying Pld is niche job and does it well already. We'll be hard pressed to make Pld much better without wrecking balance. A lot of this has to do with certain gear like Ochain and Aegis. I realize Aegis is a bit out of reach for most but Ochain isn't that much harder to get than an Emp weapon which is basically considered the norm for a melee.

@Greatguardian

I understand your points and yes they are good points. I wold just like to see Paladin evolve further. i feel it is getting left behind a little bit. I would like to see adjustments to it that I did in another post. If you you want to throw your view on it feel free, its under http://http://forum.square-enix.com/...-i-see-with-it

Its just some ideas I have that I think Paladin would benefit from and make it a stronger more wanted job and not make it completely out of balance.

What would help "fix" paladin would be a Provoke related to that in Ballista, where it is a status effect on the target that forces them only to attack you

idk why nobody has mentioned it yet

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Originally Posted by Dawnn

What would help "fix" paladin would be a Provoke related to that in Ballista, where it is a status effect on the target that forces them only to attack you

idk why nobody has mentioned it yet

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Thats pretty good. If I understand correctly about how this provoke works in ballista. I remember someone used provoke on me, but I would still be targeting the player I wanted to attack, and every hit/magical attack I landed on them the damage would go onto the provoker instead no matter how far away they are, and self buffs wont work on yourself either, like Cure etc.

I think thats a great idea honestly. I wont mind adding new abilities myself like some hate damage dealing abilities like Smite etc. just my 2 cents

its kinda simple if you think about it, every DD capping hate so the one who makes the most recent action gets hate

for a pld to try to keep up with DD's like that is near impossible unless they have almace or whatever, but if you made a job ability that forced the mob to target you (kinda like cover) then you wouldnt even need to worry about your hate -capped- levels, you just spam that ability, then go back to being defensive the way paladins were MEANT to be, iron impenetrable tanks

Any experienced, Endgame Paladin who knows how to work as part of a team would never, ever use an ability that forced a monster to focus solely on one person.

I'm sorry, but it's extremely obvious that there's very little experience speaking behind some of these things. Endgame tanking outside Abyssea is team-based. You have co-tanks. You lose hate on purpose a lot. Forcing a mob to lock onto you for some amount of time is basically asking to get your ass kicked and make your entire team worthless.

if it was like the provoke in ballista you would still have that flexibility due to its short duration, since provoke is 30 sec recast, and the duration of that provoke landing (it can miss) is about half that so 15 seconds

If you cant hold a mob for 15 secs then suck less?

it wouldnt even have to be an added effect on provoke, hell it could be a piece of gear to war/pld that augments provoke, it could be a new ability, im just saying it could be a tool used EFFICIENTLY if they had it and knew how to work with it

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Originally Posted by Dawnn

it wouldnt even have to be an added effect on provoke, hell it could be a piece of gear to war/pld that augments provoke, it could be a new ability, im just saying it could be a tool used EFFICIENTLY if they had it and knew how to work with it

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The point is its a tool that isn't needed as tank let alone as a PLD tank. You know where the hate line is between you and your co-tank and you drop below to let the co-tank take over to give you and the healers a bit of breathing room as well as to reduce the rare chance of a healer/support role pulling hate because they focused on 1 tank for too long.

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Originally Posted by Dawnn

if it was like the provoke in ballista you would still have that flexibility due to its short duration, since provoke is 30 sec recast, and the duration of that provoke landing (it can miss) is about half that so 15 seconds

If you cant hold a mob for 15 secs then suck less?

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That does not matter.

You are essentially forcing the monster to follow a certain pattern of behavior for a set time frame that you have absolutely no control over until it wears. That is not smart.

Also, this is Provoke. Provoke means subbing War. If you're subbing WAR, then suck less. Added bonus, if you can't control and cap/uncap your Enmity at will, suck less =/. No experienced Paladin needs an auto-cap ability to cap their hate when they want it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Any experienced, Endgame Paladin who knows how to work as part of a team would never, ever use an ability that forced a monster to focus solely on one person.

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Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm sorry, but it's extremely obvious that there's very little experience speaking behind some of these things. Endgame tanking outside Abyssea is team-based. You have co-tanks. You lose hate on purpose a lot. Forcing a mob to lock onto you for some amount of time is basically asking to get your ass kicked and make your entire team worthless.

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No need to apologize. I wonder if that large number of post you have is all similar comments like this that serves no purpose in a discussion, and implying everyone to play a curtain way that you feel is right.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..

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How does a nonOchain endgame PLD/NIN have Provoke? We are talking about a non MPsponge tank right?

Edit: Cure IV gives you less hate than meleeing unless you can't do 200~ damage in 4 seconds from melee.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Cure IV, and Rampert, are some actions and job abilities that a PLD excels at for the sole purpose of keeping hate. They have the best armor for this..




No need to apologize. I wonder if that large number of post you have is all similar comments like this that serves no purpose in a discussion, and implying everyone to play a curtain way that you feel is right.

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Have you really never worked with a co-tank before? Ever?

If not, read my thread here and skip to the portion near the bottom about teamwork and co-tanking. Or better yet, just read the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

How does a nonOchain endgame PLD/NIN have Provoke? We are talking about a non MPsponge tank right?

Edit: Cure IV gives you less hate than meleeing unless you can't do 200~ damage in 4 seconds from melee.

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I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Have you really never worked with a co-tank before? Ever?

If not, read my thread here and skip to the portion near the bottom about teamwork and co-tanking. Or better yet, just read the whole thing.

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Not going to change the subject. The fact of the matter is PLD have the JA and equipment to excel in tanking. They don't make great damage dealers or healers. Although damage dealing can be subjective, but they don't excel in it.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.

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The point is PLD/WAR without Ochain = MP Sponge = Healer Pull hate... and a worse tank when PLD/NIN mitigates more damage and handles hate better.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I wonder if you actually read my post. I said those are some job abilities, and actions a paladin excels at. Of course you know pld/war gets provoke.



Not going to change the subject. The fact of the matter is PLD have the JA and equipment to excel in tanking. They don't make great damage dealers or healers. Although damage dealing can be subjective, but they don't excel in it.

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So... what? That has absolutely nothing to do with it being a horrible idea to lock a monster onto a single target.

There is such a thing as having more than one Tank tanking a monster. And on anything that's actually seriously difficult, it's pretty much the standard.

You always want the ability to lose hate when you need to. Enmity management is an extremely important skill. It's blatantly obvious that we're working with completely different mindsets here. You're not even tanking a second tank into account at all, and that says a lot.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

The point is PLD/WAR without Ochain = MP Sponge = Healer Pull hate... and a worse tank when PLD/NIN mitigates more damage and handles hate better.

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I'm not disagreeing with you, I never was lol. No DMG is better than taking some. But, blink tank can be subjective with equipment like Creed Collar, and Creed Cuisses +2. In fact the entire creed +2 set Occasionally absorbs damage taken. Set proc believed to be somewhere around 5% for each part. I might be wrong though.

Taking damage demolishes your CE, the most important kind of Enmity for a dedicated tank, and creates a significantly greater strain on your support staff. There's a reason it's a good idea for DDs and Mages to occasionally take a strategic punch.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

So... what? That has absolutely nothing to do with it being a horrible idea to lock a monster onto a single target.

There is such a thing as having more than one Tank tanking a monster. And on anything that's actually seriously difficult, it's pretty much the standard.

You always want the ability to lose hate when you need to. Enmity management is an extremely important skill. It's blatantly obvious that we're working with completely different mindsets here. You're not even tanking a second tank into account at all, and that says a lot.

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I'm taking you never solo tanked before. I agree there is nothing wrong with teamwork at all, anyone can tank if they can keep hate and survive. In my opinion pld is best at doing just that. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

Paladin isn't the best at staying alive solo =/. I've solo tanked plenty, on trash NMs where it's feasible to do. But if we're talking about trash NMs, plenty of jobs can stay alive and keep hate better than Paladin.

The harder any given NM is, the more of an advantage PLD gets in the Enmity game because everyone else is able to do less and less damage for Enmity while taking more and more. By the same token, when you hit an NM that's too hard for a DD to tank with damage-Enmity, Paladin (and no one else, really) should not be tanking on their own.

Can I do it? Sure. I've tanked plenty of hard stuff solo when I had to. That doesn't mean it was anywhere near ideal, or easy, or practical, and I wouldn't want to do it again in the future. People figured out years ago that the ideal way to tank any difficult mob was in pairs. Any more would become too complicated to manage (unless the NM could insta-kill people fairly often or something, and even then that was 2 at a time + rotation), while solo tanking was just way too dangerous and lead to significantly more deaths. Hell, with anything that is legitimately difficult to fight, solo tanking may as well be impossible, that's how much you're gaining by having 2 tanks that work together well.

Any ability that takes away the ability to work properly with your co-tank is useless at best, harmful or even wipe-causing at worst. Besides, Provoke is fairly useless at it is and still requires /War which in and of itself is pretty bad.