For SMN/WHM in a Healer /support capacity Carbuncle is the best. Unless you think that a pet costing 1/2 of what the light spirit does that provides ~22HP per tick Regen and a reliable ~400Hp AoE curaga is somehow inferior. Even spamming Healing Ruby II Carby is cheaper than the light spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
Carby will deal more Damage and heal more HP over time than a Light spirit all the while costing just as little, and being generally more reliable than a spirit, the bolded proves this. Of course it's better to use an avatar in any situation over spirits, that's how the job was designed. I've used spirits before on things and, it always became quickly apparent Avatars>Spirits.
My point is there's no need for "Spirit fixes", we already have stornger, more reliable, more versatile pets that could still use a boost. You're the biased one here, You say a small amount of perpetuation (19MP per minute is not insignifigant), sure they cost slightly less than the celestials when you factor in BPs, but they can't come close to them in any other regard.
For whatever reason you have decided to campaign on behalf of spirits, but honestly what would it get us if they were "fixed". SE could buff them to a point where they're closer to the avatars for nuking and would see more use, but in all seriousness it would leave us exxactly where we are now(obviously aside from people who like to play with spirits, your toys would be a little better), the job would remain as it was in both power and player perspective.
Spirits would never be more useful than Carbuncle for support role, because AoE regen and curaga(on command) are far better than maybe a Cure V or a Curaga IV, when either of these could easily be a Flash. I don't diss Spirit fixes out of ignorance, I diss them because a fix to them would only ever be a side grade, I want SE to spend time fixing things that both need to be fixed and will make the job more useful and better.
Making Spirits better buffers does nothing, because Avatars are already better buffers.
Making Spirits better nukers does nothing, because Avatars are already better nukers.
Making Spirits better Healers does nothing, because Avatars are already better Healers.
Making Spirits better DD/tanks does nothing, because Avatars are already better DD/tanks.
It makes far more sense to buff the more powerful pet, since the job needs a power boost anyway, thats's the only reason I'm against Spirits getting an update.
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07-31-2011, 02:30 AMRazushu
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07-31-2011, 04:32 AMCovenant
@ razusho I'm sure your the "bee's-knees" as a summoner, your various post from technical standing "seems" well informed, but your stance on spirits is total crap. Worst off, it shows how unimaginative your thinking is. You based all you reasoning on the "old" spirit stance...that they're useless anything other than an mp boost and maybe a quick save.
First off, without any special NM elemental, let just say SE would fix the spirits spell list to include lvls 75~99 elemental spells. Spirits would now have access to just about everything a black Mage and scholar has at appropriate levels...to include AM, AM II, helix spells, storm spells, tier V's, and ~JA spells(yes some of these are extreme wishful thinking). Your seriously saying that a merited bloodpact spell would out damage a -JA, AM II, or tier V spell?
Second, this was true in the past and still true now...spirits being NPC(non player control) characters DON'T require resting to regain MP. An extreme fictional behavior nonstop AM Nuking, spirit would still not require resting. Adding several fast cast tiers to all spirits at whatever level, would make spirits that much impressive than an avatars magical nukes.
Thirdly, on melee/def capabilities and why to buff these. If SE were to keep the spirits casting/behavior the same, I could see a faster/melee type elemental as a major improvement. Saying that avatars are better at tanking is at best 50% of the truth. Both avatar and Spirits have "stout servant" job trait. What makes avatar good at tanking is usually a higher such as evasion(Garuda), def(Titan), or other blood pact ability(carby/regen,cure, diabolos/phalanx, magic shroud). However, a spirit has a natural resistance to physical damage which isn't as pronounced as it should be. A lvl 75 spirit does not have the same defensive capability as a lvl 75 elemental mob.
And lastly, and I think even most importantly spirits have uniformity of behavior. The cycles which player hate because it removes direct control is also what makes spirits superior than avatar. Avatar have multiple bloodpact/wards to manage and remember. Adding additional effects to avatar would only continue to add to the confusion. Not to mention that the multitude of Bloodpacts and wards all share the same timers only lessen their effectiveness. No matter what spirit types they all are equal in the sense of the behaviors.
As a thought experiment only, summoner that could captialize on the ninja "elemental wheel" strategy with AM use, could push nuking power that much more higher.
What this wall of text adds up to, as far as the future of spirit utilization is unlimited potential in my book. The only thing adding a new bloodpact to an avatar is the cessation of "old Bloodpacts". Why use predator claw I, when predator claw II is better? Why use single strike bloodpact when mutlistrikes are more effect.
Adding to avatars, while needed at the lower levels, are NOT required at the higher lvls. Other than adding more AoE moves at higher lvls, I don't see any improvements needed. Spirits automatically eliminate lower tier nukes in favor for maxed tier spell use. I'm also sure that summoner/BLM could eliminate a lot of the debuffs, if they casted on mobs first eliminating the need for spirits to do it. -
07-31-2011, 08:08 AMMalamasalaAs covenant says, you diss spirits out of "this is how bad they are" rather than thinking about "this is how good they could be".Quote:
Spirits would never be more useful than Carbuncle for support role, because AoE regen and curaga(on command) are far better than maybe a Cure V or a Curaga IV, when either of these could easily be a Flash. I don't diss Spirit fixes out of ignorance, I diss them because a fix to them would only ever be a side grade, I want SE to spend time fixing things that both need to be fixed and will make the job more useful and better.
Let me list a few utilities of spirits "who are fixed"
- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.
- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.
- Spirit fast nukes: You can stay at safer range 20+, because you do not need to be in BP-range.
- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.
- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.
And the above are just examples. You could do much more. I think it is a huge difference to your "I want harder hitting avatar melee" wishlist, which doesn't allow us to do anything different, just the same things better. -
07-31-2011, 08:26 PMRazushuWhy thank you:D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
My stance on spirits is they are inferior to Avatars(Which is true), and if SE is coming at us with a buff to pets it would better serve us if it was to our Avatars(which is also true). I'm very imaginative actually, I just choose not to waste it on spirits, and tend to think of things to improve the main focus of the job.
The spell list hasn't been "fixed", but then neither have our avatars recieved new rages yet. Personally I'm asking for new Rages. Avatars did better damage at 75, so they're gonna be better at 99. They already get AM btw, and yes I'm seriously saying a merited BP will out damage any spell from the inferior pet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Adding fast cast and unlimited MP to spirits would be amazing.... assuming I want Burn spam at some point. Why are you trying to think of ways to buff spirits to rival Avatars? Avatars are better than spirits but still need work, why not ask for the work to be finished on Avatars first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Saying Avatars are better at tanking is 100% the truth sure they get the same traits, but Avatars are just sturdier thatn spirits. No player commanded monster has near the power of it's wild counter part, ask a BST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Uniformity is great, except that behaviour is cr*p. Direct control is fair superior to AI, A nuke on command is FAR better than maybe a nuke(but possibly another debuff). Avatars versatility is what makes them superior, and the selection of wards and rages is what makes them versatile. It's very easy to remember all the Pacts an Avatar has, and what situation to use them in. Spirits casting all share the same timer too, except you might get what you want or not. Couldn't a Summoner use the elemental wheel with merit pacts too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
As far as the future of Avatar utilization goes it's actually unlimited. Of course adding new Blood Pacts, will replace old ones, that's how the game work. Unlock Heavenly Strike? so long Blizzard IV. The fact we're using DD tools from ~20 levels ago is enough to warrant a buff( the upcoming ability may negate this), that and the fact avatars have the same damage as naked BLM melee is a huge problem(and it completely overshadows spirit "problems" as a job failing). Why would you go /BLM just to boost damage from you spirits? they party loses your support abilities, you lose survivability, and for what to push spirit damage closer to Avatar damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
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07-31-2011, 08:36 PMRazushuI diss them in the same way a SAM would diss his sword skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
All those "fixed" spirits roles are already filled by Avatars.
- Spirit fast nukes: DoT pet. If it casts nukes every 20 seconds, even weak, it will give a moderate constant damage feed.
Avatars do this in bigger slower chunks(soon to be less slow).
- Spirit fast nukes: Good kite + damage pet. Less hate for Summoner who do not need to trigger pacts.
I've yet to pull enough hate triggering BPs for an avatar to not pull hate on it's inital strike.
- Spirit smart healing: A good emergency /WHM addition if you were subbing something else (like perhaps SCH and missing cure IV). Even with /WHM it helps you AOE cure alliance members which your avatars or sub can't.
Carbuncle provides ~22HP per tick, ~400HP(before TP) AoE cure, and even a Protect/shell that stacks with Protect/Shell.
That is acutally the one use for a spirit in a fight, but why is a SMN the only healer in yopur alliance, a niche use for a situation that never arises is useless.
- Spirit smart healing: Enables you to play the PUP way of soloing if you want to. Meleeing with a pet that cures you. Good for example skill up staff.
Carbuncle, Leviathan and Garuda already do this.
My desire for stronger Avatar melee, does indeed only let us do the same things but better. However your spirits wishlist tries to fill needs already filled. The only situation where spirits would allow us to do more than an avatar could is if you were afk eating dinner during a fight. -
08-01-2011, 01:22 AMCovenant
I'm officially gonna get off of the spirit fixes from this point on. I've said what I have to say about them. Also, as the OP states, I look forward to any change given to avatars also.
I forget where I stated it but at lvl 99, I'd like to see ALL avatars receive the "third" of elemental nukes(I'm not counting merited BP). Perhaps a ancient magic~aga or tier VI spell?
As far a "potentially" useful bloodwards perhaps a ward similar to a warmocampra's "Heat Barrier". Except being avatar, each elemental barrier would be represented(fire,earth,water, wind, water, light, dark, lightening). The ward would provided 2 buff simultaneously as barrier does namely Enspell and spike...perhaps make them a bit stronger into the tier 2 range. Of course , they'd be AoE.
I could even envision a avatar/summoner ONLY buff that pushes the Enspell and spikes to "tier 3" levels whatever that is. -
08-01-2011, 08:57 PMMalamasalaBut it fills them better. Which as I quote, is your argument for avatar updates.Quote:
My desire for stronger Avatar melee, does indeed only let us do the same things but better. However your spirits wishlist tries to fill needs already filled.
But that is enough pointing fingers at your biased opinions. It isn't like you aren't allowed to have them. I just tried to explain why they were biased. Probably more for SE staff than you. -
08-01-2011, 09:31 PMRazushuEach of the utilities that you listed for "fixed" spirits is already filled by Avatars, so what is the point? We get it you like spirits, but that's a pretty awful reason to adjust spirits. Your own bias is very clear, you want to use spirits day to day, so you will ignore things like they're far weaker than Avatars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
Summoner needs a boost not new toys that leave us exactly where we are now. Thats why I agrue for a boost to Avatars over spirits, every job has tools it leaves behind as it levels up and Summoner is no exception. Saying spirits are broken , is akin to a BLM complaining that Fire doesn't do enough damage any more.
Spirits have a use already they are a great emergency pet, light spirit can give Pro/Shell V before a solo fight, and they give us a big chunk of MP back every 5 minutes. For everything else there's Avatars, and as it stands they are better buffers, nukers, DDs/Tanks and healers, why on earth would you want SE to waste time buffing spirits to near the level of current Avatars when they could better spend it buffing the Avatars.
I honestly get the impression you've taken up the cause of spirits, precisely because they're useless as combat pets. A boost to them isn't needed at all, we need help with our main pets to be more accepted.
For the record I'm not against a buff to spirits completely. I'm just against it now when there's so much more the job needs, that the devs would better much better employed fixing the things the job uses 90% of the time before it looks at stuff we play with occasionally. -
08-02-2011, 11:25 AMCovenant
So what are the buffs of people would like see? I've named quite a few, but in generals the buff people want for a avatar are the same buff everyone wants, namely melee damage and haste. There also the AoE suggestion floating around. This damage can be either physical or magical in nature.
I look at bluemages for inspiration. Most if not all of their spells offer dual, or tri effects under one spell use. At this point in the game why can Summoners expect their avatar's Bloodpacts to feature not only damage but increased debuffs?
I've had this idea for redmage for like forever, but willing to let a summoner have it. A spell/bloodpact called Murk. Murk would drop evasion, give blindness, and gravity to mobs.
Diabolos better get his "curse" move....what is it? Cacodemonia? Something like that. And what about his BIO III? While I truly enjoy Nightmare, what about giving Diabolos "Sleep III"? How about Barsleepara II or III? Or what about a bloodwards that grants TP/MP/HP whole under sleep called "Wet Dream"?
Carbuncle "light shield" bloodwards, occasionally absorbs damage. Enlighten II?
Garuda AoE "Shroud" AoE invisible/sneak isn't it about time? Improved "Shroud" chance to avoid True Sight/sound.
Titan. "Sentinel"(same as Paladin). Def up and enmity up. "Full Force strike" a strong attack, strong knock back, bind.
Fenrir. "Firestarter" severe Burn(think tier 2 or 3) and accuracy down(on the account your on fire).
I'd like to examine giving each avatar a version of "absorb type spell" but tier II. Fenrir-STR, TiTan-VIT, Garuda-AGI, Ramuh-DEX, Etc. Or, giving them the next tier of elemental debuffs such as BurnII, ChokeII, etc. Number wise maybe
20-50 stats(resistance, but NO decay just straight duration, DoT effects.). Or, similar to scholar helix or even better a blue Mage "breath attack".
I gonna suggest a cheat now...how about a bloodpact that summons an extra elemental to fight beside it. Think bloodpact 200-300mp, duration(as long as avatar is out). Elemental will occasionally cast an elemental nuke on avatar healing damage? Elemental will share hate only with Avatar.
As far as a Summoner Job ability, how about "Charm Elemental"? A summoner will be able to charm(as a Beastmaster) random elementals. Once Charm the same rules of charm works, however A modify -mp per starts. Perhaps a lower cost than regular spirits(since at any moment can be in harmed). Elemental Siphon still functional. Think this could be really useful especially at earlier levels. -
08-03-2011, 10:06 PMMalamasalaI like updates that give a lot of of effect.Quote:
I honestly get the impression you've taken up the cause of spirits, precisely because they're useless as combat pets. A boost to them isn't needed at all, we need help with our main pets to be more accepted.
Improved avatar melee won't change a thing, except parser results.
Improved BP:Rage damage won't change a thing, except parser results.
Reducing perpetuation would allow low level SMNs to play... but these days low levels are gone so less important.
Improved BP timer will make a difference, and SE are working on this. Hopefully it will be a big difference.
Improving ward potency would make a large difference, and allow us to put up for example phalanx with useful potency.
Improving spirits would make a large difference, and allow us to DD at greater distances, or assist whole alliances.
Improving favors so that it isn't just a negative with very little positive bonus would also go a long way.
I simply want updates that make people go "Oh, you can do that now?" rather than having to say "Did you see that? My avatar melee hit did 100 damage". I have a feeling that the job will be more popular if it visibly is updated, than if you have to go on a forum and post a parse to show the update difference.
Spirit update -> People ask why you use spirits -> They get amazed at the big change -> Spread word that SMN is much better now.
Avatar damage update -> Nobody notices because WAR still does highest damage -> You have to advertise the changes yourself.
I still think that even if you dislike my ideas, those benefit SMNs more in the long run. Assuming of course that they "Fix" things, and not just do a half-assed attempt and end up with something like favors, which is just not good enough to give a new role to SMN and impress people. -
08-03-2011, 10:41 PMRazushuImproved Avatar damage both DPS and Blood Pact would really change things, we would get more invites as a ranged /magical DD than we do now, i.e an accepted general use nuker rather than the common no TP only most people seem to suffer from. Wards potency would help us out a great deal(personally after getting BP delay fixed, this is the fix I'd most like to see), I'm fairly hopeful for it because they've already fixed ward durations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
The problem with fixing spirits is they would just end up stepping on the Avatars toes. Want a nuke pet? We have one already. Tank/DD pet? got one. Support pet? Have it. The only unique use to spirits aside from us now being able to play AFK, is the light spirit alliance cures, but even this is only really useful if you happen to be the only healer in the group. With all the main roles already covered by Avatars, all there was left for our low level pets was MP management. Unless SE can create a new role for spirits a buff to them would be pointless, and will probably take a back burneruntil the job is fixed itself.
A gimmick update, like making spirits comparable to Avatars in nukeing etc. would not go like that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
Spirit update-> why are you using spirits -> "oh so nothings really changed" -> SMN in the same place with more pets to choose from.
-> no one other than SMNs care.
Avatar Damage update-> things die faster-> even bigger spike damage numbers-> we have something to advertise.
A damage boost would be a very visible buff as is, I still surprise some people on SMN when I make a mobs HP bar go away, with one Predator claws, and take healthy chunks off an NMs life, a good boost to Avatar damage would actually be the most notable buff to the job. We already have a rep as spike DDs, increase our damage and spread that rep further = more people bringing SMN to more things.Having said this the new BP delay JA could provide this boost.
It's not that I dislike your ideas, it's just when it comes to spirits all it would amount to is a side grade, unless they make them stronger than our Avatars(which I can't see happening). As a job we need arguably the most love, and even though it's starting to look like we're gonna get it, I'd rather they buff the things we use everyday, before looking at things like spirits. -
08-04-2011, 12:17 AMKorpgI'm sorry, but how would improvement on spirits make any difference at all when you don't have any control over them, or allow anyone to DD at greater distance when you can't do anything until you sic the pet on the mob?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
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08-07-2011, 12:14 AMCovenant
People talk about balance and don't understand what they're talking about. Every single job wants to do two things only. More melee damage and do it faster(haste). Next you hear two complaints, well loom at warriors I can't compete. This argument from WHM, RDM, and Summoners. As if your supposed to be meleeN and getting the same numbers warrior get.
Summoners are supposed to have a spread of abilites across all of the summons(not only avatars). If SquareEnix had kept the original separation of nuke/spirits and physical/avatar it would have been easier to see. Unfortunately, they cavedin dropping all support to spirits 1year after game release and focused on avatar alone.
I can understand some of their thinking. Namely, any pet changes would not only affect players but mob pets as well. How would players like to see elementals and pets casting -JA, AMII, and whatnot spells. For the most part mob avatar are NM only and any player changes would have limited impact on mobs. Unfortunately elementals and pets are everywhere.
Second, players abandon elemental early on due to high perp costs and super slow casting cycles. Only elite player would appropriate gear could hope to lower casting cycles to the cap of 33secs? Can you imagine who would play BLM if they could only cast every 30sec~1min? And only on a set cycle? No player would ever play that job. As no summoner uses spirits for exactly those reasons.
Extra damage and faster damage is always a plus, but we have to BAlANCE summoner with other uses. -
08-07-2011, 08:05 AMSoundwaveI'm know its kinda corny, but I just saw the new planet of the apes movie and here is a quote....Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
**Contains Spoilers**
Sometimes things aren't meant to be controlled. *Later in the movie shit got out of hand if you know what I mean.
If we can control spirits as well as avatar I'm afraid it would just upset the current balance between spirits and avatars. I know your dying for some type of update Mala.....don't get your hopes up when it does come....because spirits won't > Avatars.
I would personally like to see more updates to our avatars rather than a mindless AI. -
08-08-2011, 02:52 AMRazushuSE has never said they want us to use Avatars and spirits equally, in fact whenever they talk about us the say "Avatars". Why would the elemental Gods not have access to heavier nukes than spirits? I honestly don't see how SE could have intended us to use spirits for nuking over Avatars, they're damage was terrible even at low levels. The spirits were there so Summoners could have something other than Carbuncle to use when SMN was first introduced, they were then given new life with Elemental Siphon. This ability alone makes them far more used than some of our Avatars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Thank Altana they let spirits fall behind in favour of Avatars nuking, I wouldn't like the choice of Buffing/DDing(w/Physical pacts) vs. unpredicatable nukes only. A controllable pet is also far superior to an AI one(ask any PUP), I'd take Heavenly strike on demand every time over a chance of a Tier IV or AM. There's nothing wrong with abandoning spirits early in favor of Avatars(ask any newb lvl 1 WAR that picks up a G.Axe over the Onion Sword at the earliest point possible), the tools we use at low level get replaced by our higher level abilities sometimes. -
08-08-2011, 09:03 AMSoundwaveThis post x100, everything is spot on here to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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08-08-2011, 03:06 PMCovenant
I don't ever say that spirits should ever overtake avatars, however look at my OP argument. Avatars received TWO tiers of magic before Blackmages, namely tier II and IV, by a significant factor(usually 10-16 levels before). Spirits matched BLM Mage nuking capabilities lvl for lvl, Gaining tier 1-IV, and AM.
Logically, the level in-between an avatars tier II and IV, nuking would be filled by spirits in a very limited capacity. Avatars however, were the first players to receive the dual/tri effect capabilities that a Bluemage now enjoys. For example, titan was damage/slow, Ramuh dmage/paralyze...etc. It was a physical attack with strong elemental components. At best as summoner/avatar nukes were simply for magic burst situations(10%) with their physical Bloodpacts for 80-90% of their use.
The point of the physical damage down effect of spirits as opposed to avatars. Spirits by their very nature are not fully represented on the physical plane. Spirits represent an elemental energy, while avatars have NO natural physical down capabilities other than those by bloodwards. Avatar have manifested in a physical body to strike out at enemies, making them much more vulnerable to physical damage.
I'm actually disappointed by the path avatars have taken. The path I see is simply one of out damaging the previous ability. Rather than simple damage for avatars, SE should return to the multi-effect path of avatars earlier power and enhance them even more greatly. Abilties like "Nightmare" are amazing...sleep WITH Damage over time or even Ramuh Thunder strike still is impressive. Would a ten-hit strike for every avatar be cool? Of course it would.
Not being an "end-game" player, I still here people talking about NM resistances. What if Summoners could bridge the gaps for player to land normal debuffs and spells? -
08-08-2011, 09:59 PMRazushuYeah and we get them all in one chunk(because there's no damage hierarchy in them), If Avatars got them like BLM, it would take 20 levels(tier IIs) to get them all, and we wouldn't start getting the Tier IVs until 68. Giving them to use in two chunks at lvl10 and lvl60 gave SE the ability to skip Tiers I & III, while keeping with their "we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited." standpoint, I know it's flawed as far as Physical pacts are concerned, but we're discussing nukes and until Abyssea(Atma of the Beyond), Avatars were equal as to which 75 Pacts are picked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
Technically Theres no "in-between Levels", unless you count lvl51-59 where we are stuck with Tier IIs while BLMs start getting Tier IIIs. Until then we're using Tier IIs while BLMs do and we start using Tier IVs, while BLMs are on Tier IIIs.
It would be nice if they updated the 70 pacts with an Added effect(they already started with Thunder Strike's Stun), or even add them to the merit pacts.
Spirits is only a name for them, they're elementals. Avatars have the same -50% PDT as spirits, spirits can also "melee", aswell as Avatars, leaving them just as vunerable to physical damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenant
With BP timers in the state they are, it was unfortunately the only way we could go. Unless they add these effects to the Rages we use to DD, they're never gonna be used. Take Fenrir as an example he gets Blind and a potent paralyze effect, but they share a timer with Eclipse Bite so they'll never see the light of day past lvl65. -
08-08-2011, 11:32 PMKorpgUp until you added merits to specific blood pacts. 3/5 Heavenly Strike will always do better unresisted damage than 1/5 Thunderstorm, but technically, we still choose avatars based on the weakest element resist on the mob, or at least smart summoners do. Any SMN who uses Geocrush on Dragua needs to be taken out back and shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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08-09-2011, 01:37 AMRazushuYeah but thats my point aside from which you choose to merit higher, they are all equal. I have 5/5 Heavenly Strike and 1/5 in the others, just because Shiva benefits from Beyond more, and I just use the appropriate element of the mob otherwise. Was doing Mictlantecuhtli last night Meteor Strike 1/5 was doing 1k~1.5k(TP Variance).Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
TBH what I would love to see is a change in our Group 2 merits, make it so Level 1 unlocks the Pact and subsequent levels add a debuff to the Pact like an added effect that increases in potency each merit. -
08-09-2011, 03:41 AMKorpg
Personally, they shouldn't allow limits to merits in the first place.
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08-10-2011, 03:24 AMMalamasalaEver fight a HNM? They do not choose their TP moves, they random them. No control at all, yet you probably wouldn't say no to one AV as a pet. The difference lies in how often it does stuff. If AV only waited 50 seconds to toss Aero IV he'd be quite a lot easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
The difference between a spirit and a monster is simply how often and how devastating it attacks. Take your average elemental for example. Does it really take 50 seconds for each spell? I tend to feel like they cast more like every 15 seconds. Them casting and being near uninterruptable also helps.
Control doesn't matter, attack frequency is where it is at. You could remove BPs completely, but have avatars attack at insane speeds and TP every 20 seconds and we'd be far better than now. No control, just plain raw power.
In the end we could always just merge Raz and my opinions and we'd have improved avatars who now cast elemental magic every 15 seconds. (I say 15, since it would be random, PUPs are around 20-25 somewhere with selected spells) -
08-10-2011, 08:10 AMKorpg
HNMs? All mobs have a list of possible spells/abilities/moves that they choose from. Sometimes, on somethings, they can't choose a specific ability/move until they reach a specific % (see: Cerberus).
The real difference between a spirit and a monster is, you kill one, you summon the other. I'll let you figure out which is which though.
Spirits are not nukers, they don't have the capability to choose spells out of a list, nor should we choose it for them (if we could, we would take BLMs out of their job because we would have hateless and deathless spells, for 0 MP, kindof like PUP but only better). -
08-10-2011, 08:52 PMImakun
It wouldn't even come close to PUP. (A good) PUP is already better than a BLM, let alone a SMN even if we could choose our spirit's spells.
We have no way of enhancing a spirit's Magic attack or accuracy like a BLM or a PUP and their AI plain sucks (hi2u Regen and Haste). >>
Truth be told, I don't even care about spirits. I'd rather have SE focus on Avatars and just forget about spirits. They're mana batteries and I'm content with that.
We have far more important stuff to address than our retarded spirits. -
08-11-2011, 01:34 AMKorpg
Yeah, but Mala has already stated that he wants the SMNs to choose the spell from the spirits. That alone would edge out BLMs a little because we can always just resummon the spirit instead of waiting 45 seconds to use the spell again, unless they do a global timer like avatars. Even then, it would edge out PUPs because we can choose which spell to use, instead of the automation choosing their own spells.
It takes PUPs about a minute to buff up the automation to do just as much damage as a BLM, and the only think the automation has over BLMs is the ability to disappear and reappear almost instantly. -
08-11-2011, 03:10 AMXaven
What about having the ability to Blood Pack for the Spirits? I've always hoped they would update some day where i could. almost lvl 99 now and yet 2 see it happen
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08-11-2011, 03:52 AMJanetDax
One thing that bothers me about the upcoming level increases is another scramble to deal with perp costs. This is the weakness of SMN in my opinion. I usually wind up ending every fight with carby because anything else burns mana
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08-12-2011, 01:42 AMMalamasalaMostly an issue about TP spam. Some HNM have their "use TP at 100%" coding, while regular monsters can get any amount of TP because they have a kind of BST timer that determines how often they check for TP.Quote:
HNMs? All mobs have a list of possible spells/abilities/moves that they choose from. Sometimes, on somethings, they can't choose a specific ability/move until they reach a specific % (see: Cerberus).
I don't find them important either. I find them an eyesore. Delete them or fix them, doesn't matter to me as long as something is done instead of pretending they don't exist except as some kind of pre-JA to Siphon.Quote:
Truth be told, I don't even care about spirits. I'd rather have SE focus on Avatars and just forget about spirits. They're mana batteries and I'm content with that.
We have far more important stuff to address than our retarded spirits.
They are equal to dog poo in my eyes. Remove or convince me there is a reason I got dog poo all over the place.
I don't remember saying that. While you are probably making stuff up as usual, I won't deny it could accidentally happen that I'd say that. Usually I just say that they should have a guaranteed spell cycle. Nuke > dot > Nuke > dot or dot > Nuke > dot Nuke. The "or" part is so you don't end up with it being good to resummon after each nuke, or screw you over if you have to resummon and make you end up with dot > resummon > dot > resummon > dot.Quote:
Yeah, but Mala has already stated that he wants the SMNs to choose the spell from the spirits.
So yea, less "pick spell" and more "guaranteed nuke in 30 seconds" design is what I want. After all, I don't think you can out-DD a PUP or BLM with a 30 seconds delay between nukes, but you can probably speed up your DD compared to waiting 45 seconds on a BP. (With a good alternative to do BP > spirit > nuke > BP style)
Of course that is my idea from 2005, so it doesn't take into account the new 2011/2012 -BP timer JA SE is adding. When that comes, it is possible my spirit ideas will seem even worse. -
08-12-2011, 02:21 AMRazushuTry not to let them bother you, every job has redundant elements. At least the were given a use, one trick ponies though they are. SE gave them a gimmick to make them feel like part of the team, and for me it works enough that I don't spend too much time dwelling on the meaning of their existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
How about this that dog poo is full of rich creamy ether, if you rub it all over you you'll refill your MP...... and maybe have smoother skin too. -
08-12-2011, 07:30 AMSoundwaveI'm totally forgetting what you just said right now....Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
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08-12-2011, 08:03 AMRazushuAwh come on, we're all Summoners here. We all do it, there's nothing to be ashamed of. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave
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08-12-2011, 10:52 PMsolodragon1984
we summoners need more good stuff not junk like some of those 80+ BP's only a few are worth the time to use lol like enfire,movement speed up and eva,atk down,Holy mist, Night Terror, Lunar Bay and titan got screwed for the better terms on new BP cause not many Summoners would melee let alone tank and i see how it would work if fighting a magic/blm type mob but a melee type but long post short
We Need More Better Stuff and not junk -
08-16-2011, 01:08 AMMalamasala
While I think the new pacts like shiva's and levi's wards were nice, I'm a bit disappointed that completely unique pacts wouldn't deal damage also. I can understand slowga and sleepga not doing damage, since they are more or less copies of existing spells. But when it is something brand new, it should deal a tiny amount of damage also. Like 200 damage.
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08-16-2011, 01:14 AMRazushuOr if they dealt a moderate amount of damage to the target mob, something like 1/2 the damage of a merit pact. The other mobs in range would only recieve the XXX down effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
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08-16-2011, 11:11 AMCovenant
On imagine if they combined whatever titans "critical down" move with an AOE damage. Visually think of Titan summoning a wall of stones(stoneskin) that mob get rock damages as the rocks gather in the center. I also like ifrits/Ramuh to have a sorta helix/storm/spike ability, that ass long as mobs stay within an AOE around those avatars they will receive constant DoT damage. Think Firestorm or chain lightening.