WS gorgets, are they still worth getting?

Gorgets are nice because the neck slot is typically quite weak.

Belts are more niche because the waist slot is strong (Warwolf, Cuchulain's, Anguinus etc).

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It's quite right, one addition:
Since the fTP value depends on the TP at which the WS is performed, so does the bonus from the gorgets, while STR/Attack will always give the same boost independant of TP.

This, again, depends on the WS itself. There's WS with constant fTP (low fTP like Raging Rush or high fTP like Sidewinder), and WS with heavily rising fTP (like Steel Cyclone).

Raging Rush 100%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%
Raging Rush 300%: 1.0, torque/belt bonus: 10%

Sidewinder 100%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%
Sidewinder 300%: 5.0, torque/belt bonus: 2%

Steel Cyclone 100%: 1.5, torque/belt bonus: 6.6%
Steel Cyclone 300%: 3.0, torque/belt bonus: 3.3%

So you see the damage bonus dimishes with higher fTP. The precise bonus is always (fTP+0.1)/fTP. Now let's assume 10STR for Steel Cyclone would give 5% damage boost. That would mean that at 100% it would make more sense to use WS gorget, however at 300% the 10 STR would be a larger damage boost. A general formula to determine the tipping point would be
(fTP+0.1)/fTP = 1 + x
<=> fTP = 0.1/x
where x is the percentual increase in damage. So if we say 10 STR would give Steel Cyclone a 5% damage boost, then the tipping point would be fTP = 0.1/0.05 = 2. Which means before fTP = 2 (under ~220%TP), a WS gorget would produce better results, after fTP = 2 (above ~220%TP), the 10 STR piece would do better.

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that is not what that means.
this is not dimish returns, or you using game slang?

you get the same bonus whether it is 1 ftp or 5 ftp, what is different is final damage difference and that is not how diminish is define.

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this is not dimishing returns

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He didn't call it "diminishing returns" at all though. I wish these threads with useful information wouldn't descend into nitpicking about semantics. The meaning in his post is very clear.:(

With regards to the gorgets/belts, I think people have summed it up quite well. They become debatable with Multi hit WS and WS with higher fTP values. The question is, what is going to outperform them? With Rampage as an example there might be two options for your neck. Temperance torque and Ire Torque (or +1). For elemental based WS you pretty much want to be using Ugly Pendant or Artemis over any gorget unless they have an extremely low fTP. The magical WS are easy to test, with a multi hit WS though, it's near on impossible to get comparative numbers unless you do a lot of testing.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

He didn't call it "diminishing returns" at all though.

With regards to the gorgets/belts, I think people have summed it up quite well. They become debatable with Multi hit WS and WS with higher fTP values. The question is, what is going to outperform them? With Rampage as an example there might be two options for your neck. Temperance torque and Ire Torque (or +1). For elemental based WS you pretty much want to be using Ugly Pendant or Artemis over any gorget unless they have an extremely low fTP. The magical WS are easy to test, with a multi hit WS though, it's near on impossible to get comparative numbers unless you do a lot of testing.

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it is not dimishing, it is something else to say the final results are dimishing, the bonus it self is not.

I just want to know if this is game slang or something because someone else told me that is how it is defined and i just want to make sure. I really do not get people slang. Or if he used it wrongly and not know.

I/e:
Nothing is diminishing from a technical define standpoint.

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it is not dimishing, it is something else to say the final results are dimishing, the bonus it self is not

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I don't think he ever said the bonus of 0.1 fTP diminishes?

But, the damage the bonus gives does indeed diminish relative to total damage as fTP gets higher. Also as you have more hits on the WS.

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di·min·ish   
1.
to make or cause to seem smaller, less, less important, etc.; lessen; reduce.

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nothing is getting smaller though.

Final percent outpoint gains vs a different final percent outpoint gain is incorrect to give such a statement.

When doing so you are treading on diminishing returns concept.

you ALWAYS get .1 ftp, NOTHING is getting smaller

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Originally Posted by Rambus

it is not dimishing, it is something else to say the final results are dimishing, the bonus it self is not

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"Diminishing" per definition means "decreasing". The bonus to fTP is always the same (+0.1), the bonus to damage is also the same, the higher the fTP is, however the percentual bonus (in relation to base damage) is lower the higher the fTP is, thus decreasing, diminishing. The phrase diminishing returns means that with constant increases in investments, you get less and less out of it, which can mean both the actual effect (like increases in DEX on melee Critical Hit Rate) as well as the bonus you get out of it (like increases in Double Attack affect your total number of hits). The latter is exactly what's happening here (which, coincidentally, is not even how I meant it, but still applies).

Final percent outpoint gains vs a different final percent outpoint gain is incorrect to give such a statement.

When doing so you are treading on diminishing returns concept.

it is technically incorrect statement.

statement is needed that you are talking about final outcome comparisons.

what you said is wrong because there is nothing decreasing, you need to state you are talking about final output comparisons.

to me you are saying the bonus it self is different with different ftp vaules, witch is not the case, it is always .1

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Originally Posted by Rambus

what you said is wrong because there is nothing decreasing, you need to state you are talking about final output comparisons.

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Actually something is decreasing, the damage bonus you receive IN COMPARISON to other stats.

Yes, nothing is actually decreasing, but measuring damage in a vacuum is pointless. You generally want to know how something outperforms something else.

also, DO NOT START ANOTHER TOPIC ABOUT DIMINISHING RETURNS PLEASE.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Final percent outpoint gains vs a different final percent outpoint gain is incorrect to give such a statement.

When doing so you are treading on diminishing returns concept.

it is techincally incorract statment.

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As I said, I didn't mean it in that way, it's still not wrong though, because something actually is getting smaller: the damage bonus in relation to your base damage. If you thought I meant the fTP bonus is different, then you simply misread, because I said the fTP bonus is 0.1. It depends how you define bonus, if you look at static damage increase or percentual damage increase.

It's a point of view matter really. Define damage as the constant, fTP as the variable and you get diminishing returns clear as day:

D = 1000

D'(fTP) = 1000*(fTP+0.1)/fTP

D'(1) = 1100
D'(2) = 1050
D'(3) = 1033
D'(4) = 1025
D'(5) = 1020
etc.

In most cases it makes sense to look at the percentual increase than the actual damage increase, which is what I applied it to in this scenario.