Sortie - Owning a tier 4 Prime weapon punishes players

Uriah, that comment is not at all helpful.

I appreciate the post reply from Developers. and looking forward to future developments.


edit: also looks like Sirmarki was right on.

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Originally Posted by Yoji_Fujito

Good day, everyone,

We have heard your feedback about certain Sortie notorious monster behavior changing once you have reached stage four of the Prime Weapon upgrade process.


Information about This Issue

Those of you who visit the forums are likely aware of the discussion, but for those who don’t, let me apprise you of how it works.
In the May version update, we posted the following in the version update notes:



The feedback surrounding this started coming around this time from those who reached this step of the process. “Certain notorious monsters” in this instance refers to the Lower Sortie boss.
Prime Weapons are a type of end game content, and as such the final form of these weapons are intended to be stronger than other weapons found in the game. As such, we believe it is important that the risk be commensurate with the reward, and the changes made to the Lower Sortie boss were intended to ensure this was the case.

The main adjustment that we made, in concrete terms, was changing the timing as which a particular ability was used—no adjustment was made to how hard the ability hits or how it interacts with resistances. I would like to avail myself of the opportunity to tell you that the intended strategy is one in which players utilize a mechanic by which the damage of the ability can be reduced, and that the adjustment made was predicated on the assumption that players would utilize that mechanic.
Every boss in Lower Sortie—from the time of its implementation up through the present day—has a mechanic by which players can reduce the damage of their abilities, delay when their abilities are used, or cancel certain mode changes that make the bosses more threatening.
Players are intended to use these gimmicks to maintain their seals as they tackle the content, and failing to do so makes the bosses much more difficult to tackle than they otherwise would be.

What Effects These Changes Had

We are aware that some of you have expressed concerns that it is more difficult to simply collect spoils and gallimaufry in a “normal” Sortie run if someone with a stage four Prime Weapon is in the party.
The game automatically checks the stages of each player’s Prime Weapon, so if someone is in possession of a stage four Prime Weapon, this phenomenon is unavoidable.

As a result, the player in possession of a stage four Prime Weapon might feel responsible for causing other players to have a more difficult version of Sortie than intended, and may in fact feel some hesitation at joining a party that is simply there to farm resources, as they wish to not make things harder for others.

We did not intend for players to have their gameplay experience or ability to participate in Sortie adversely affected, but if this issue is causing consternation for players, then I feel it must be addressed.

How This Issue Effects Empyrean Armor

Some people have mentioned that they a frustrated by the effects that this has on reforging Empyrean armor, but as mentioned, the adjustments affected only the behavior of the Lower Sortie boss and thus has no effect on reforging Empyrean armor. Even though you have to go to Lower Sortie if you are reforging Empyrean Armor to +3, there is no need for you to attempt the Lower Sortie boss.

These are the two main points surrounding the changes to difficulty level and the effects they are having on farming parties. The latter is a system-based problem and we are currently discussing how to address it.

About the Mechanic

As I discussed earlier, the Lower Sortie Boss is tuned around the assumption that players are properly using the intended mechanic to mitigate damage taken. Although utilizing the mechanic will not make the boss a walk in the park, perhaps shedding a bit of light on it will make overcoming the challenges the boss poses a bit easier and well known amongst the community at large.

While the discussion below assumes one or more players has a Prime Weapon at stage four, these mechanics will work regardless of difficulty level.

The mechanic for handling the notorious monster properly revolves around the two temporary items Ra’Kaznar Seal and Ra’kaznar Metal.

Posessing these items allows you to mitigate the corresponding notorious monster’s special ability. However, these items degrade each time the NM uses its ability, and when their durability reaches zero they will cease functioning. However, they will slowly regain durability over time as long as they have at least some durability remaining.

Dhartok
Dhartok changes modes after a certain ability is used.
If you force him to absorb damage of a particular element, the durability of your seal will degrade, so be careful when dealing elemental damage.
One Dhartok’s behavior changes, he will use the ability at increasing frequency, so using the seal to mitigate the poison damage will prove critically important.

Gartell
Dealing damage under certain conditions while Gartell is in wind or lightning mode will causing two blue exclamation marks to appear, and doing that same kind of attack multiple times will cause him to switch modes from wind to lightning or vice versa.
Whenever Gartell switches modes, the next use of his special ability will be delayed. Properly managing how often you switch him between wind and lightning mode will prove critical.


Triboulex
It is possible to decrease the damage done by Setting the Stage by repeatedly dealing light-based damage. Note that autoattack-based damage does not count towards this amount.
He will use the ability at set intervals, but once his behavior changes he will also use it at certain HP thresholds, so be conscious of when you are bringing him down below those thresholds.

Aita
If you deal him damage with an elemental weakness that corresponds to his special attack (for example, by using a water attack if his special ability is fire), thn two blue exclamation marks will appear. Note that autoattack-based damage does not count.
Repeatedly causing the exclamation marks to appear in this manner will decrease the damage dealt by Vivisection. Not that if you cause him to absorb elemental damage, the potency of Vivisection will instead increase, so use caution when attacking.
When Vivisection’s damage is brought below a certain threshold, his wings will disappear and the rate at which your seal’s durability decreases will be slowed, so keeping him in this state will prove vital.

Aminon
Dealing damage multiple times with an elemental weakness that corresponding to his special attack when his earrings glow will cause a Zisurru to vanish.
If you are able to properly manage that number of Zisurru, you will be able to delay his use of Bane of Tartarus. Maintaining this state will prove key to victory.

While I do not believe we have fully solved how to handle this issue, I wanted to be able to share with what the intended behavior was and provide the relevant information in a clear way.
The other unintended side effects that these changes have had on gameplay are an issue that we are currently researching, and we are discussing potential measures that we may wish to take.

Thank you, and best of luck in Sortie!

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While we appreciate your response. I believe there are some misconceptions by the development team. This does impact the creation of Empyrean Armor +3 because these bosses—which most groups did not have a real issue with before—are the best source of Gallimaufry and Starstones. While it doesn't stop the creation it does slow it significantly.

Further, players have yet to figure out how the Fetid Ixion functions to obtain the metal.

Finally, many players already understood how the tricks of these bosses work. The issue is there is a difference between what you are saying and how these notorious monsters work. For instance players use 99k Trueflights with 99k light skillchains, and with the metal in possession and still get destroyed by Setting the Stage. Players trigger weakness (!!) on Aita regularly and it isn't often enough. How many times did you expect? Even with the Ra'Kazanar Seal on Aminon, players were only able to beat it reasonably before with Absorb TP, and the Seal is destroyed pretty quickly otherwise. Which makes the fight unreasonably difficult and unrewarding for the time spent.

Players are upset because this extra challenge added to the fight becomes a time sink with no extra reward. They feel punished rather than challenged. If there was large reward increase for the difficulty increase then players would be happier to take longer fighting or change tactics. Otherwise, they just get discouraged from this system.

I'd encourage everyone to report Uriah's needlessly rude and crass responses. This isn't reddit, and this is extra incentive for the staff not to engaged with us when you treat them like that.

Is the mechanic the development team is referring to the metal or something else we have yet to figure out.
Is it specific to each boss?

Thank you for taking the time to address the current issue. If you can find a solution that doesn't punish people who found out for the rest of the community, it would be very appreciated. I am not one of those people, but I don't enjoy being permanently punished for curiosity in my leisure activities.

Currently, you'll encourage everyone that doesn't have a stage 4 to hold onto upgrading them until they are almost to stage 5 or indefinitely. Please find a way to make fighting the harder bosses either more rewarding than their previous counterparts or consensual.

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Please consider removing the Gallimaufry cost of stage 5 and make it locked behind a larger number of stones, some that can only be acquired from doing the basement bosses correctly. This will lessen the displeasure of getting the same amount of Gallimaufry as previous wins would award for a harder fight by letting players use that Gallimaufry on additional prime weapons, armor upgrades, or spend it on cases/upgrade stones from the vendor.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Thank you for taking the time to address the current issue. If you can find a solution that doesn't punish people who found out for the rest of the community, it would be very appreciated. I am not one of those people, but I don't enjoy being permanently punished for curiosity in my leisure activities.

Currently, you'll encourage everyone that doesn't have a stage 4 to hold onto upgrading them until they are almost to stage 5 or indefinitely. Please find a way to make fighting the harder bosses either more rewarding than their previous counterparts or consensual.

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Please consider removing the Gallimaufry cost of stage 5 and make it locked behind a larger number of stones, some that can only be acquired from doing the basement bosses correctly. This will lessen the displeasure of getting the same amount of Gallimaufry as previous wins would award for a harder fight by letting players use that Gallimaufry on additional prime weapons, armor upgrades, or spend it on cases/upgrade stones from the vendor.

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Asking to lower the Gallimaufry is the wrong approach. They just need to increase the reward when stage 4 weapons are involved. Naturally, you would expect things to get more difficult when making such a weapon, but not discouraging.

Sortie, unfortunately already is rather shallow in its complexity and feels like the same event all the time. Unlike something like Salvage, Einherjar, Sheol A/B/C, Sinister Reign, Delve, etc. Even Vagary arguably feels better. There was a lot they could have done with Sortie, but since they did not then the only thing they have are Gallimaufry and stones. So they can't reasonably reduce the requirement without making it trivial like an Aeonic.

I would argue these weapons should be exceedingly rare. Where the average player makes one a year. Rather than blowing through them with less requirement. I would also argue the creation process could have been a lot better, and feels really incomplete. The WSs on these in general are already out of balance as it is.

Aminon is already difficult enough before adding a T4 prime weapon to the mix. While I encourage a challenge, I believe this round of additions are a bit over the top.

Tribulox and Gartell need to be done perfectly to defeat, with luck, after queueing T4 difficulty. With the amount of gallimaufry needed to progress, I also agree this feels more like a punishment then a challenge.

If this was a one-time clear scenario I would welcome it, but expecting people to run content requiring this much time involved, at this difficulty, is overall discouraging.

On the other hand, I am happy to see a response from the Devs on this. I hope they figure out a way to accommodate the challenge they are creating while rewarding the players for completing said challenge.

Increased difficulty should have increased rewards

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Originally Posted by Fanfair

Increased difficulty should have increased rewards

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Almost deceptively simplistic, but this is the solution. Bump up the Gallimaufry from the enraged bosses and we'll all be fine. We're locked out by the Psyches anyway, so there really is no need to be stingy on the Gallimaufry. . . especially considering we need it for Empyrean gear, too.

Right. Let's just ban everyone for telling it like it is, that's a good look. Calling something that is dumb, dumb. Is a banable offense, that's some snowflake energy.

Sycophants only.