Battle System Suggestions - MB/SC, Forced Delay, Enmity

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Originally Posted by Malithar

I get where you're coming from, and to a degree I agree. But whether abilities and spells are designed around this or not, they most certainly are not balanced around it, else you'd never have instances where using these things is harmful to your performance. Varying degrees of use according to the situation, haste values, buffs, etc, sure, but harmful? That shouldn't be the case IMO.

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I don't view it as "harmful to performance", it's making a choice. I use steps a lot in incursion and always cap def down in incursion. I never feel it's "harmful to my performance" because it seems that it's dmg increase in the long run.

In delve I only use 1 step or I don't use it at all, because the NM dies in less than 30 sec so it doesn't seems to worth the effort to cap it.....by the time I cap it's dead already.

If you have no penalty for using it, then you'd just cap steps in all situations, instead of making a choice between lv 5 steps or lv1 or no steps.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

In JRPGs there may be different delays associated with actions, but (at least for all the ones I've played) using the action itself takes no time and everyone else's ATB gauge freezes while whatever action you pick executes. That's a very different dynamic than what we have in FFXI.

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The actions in FFXI also takes no time to execute, it's just that you can't do anything after you execute it.

If I remember correctly, in FFX you make a choice first, then depending on the action you pick, you may have to wait longer for your next turn.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you have no penalty for using it, then you'd just cap steps in all situations, instead of making a choice between lv 5 steps or lv1 or no steps.

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I agree, the situations you listed are good examples of making that choice, and choices are good, like when I said the potency/use could vary, but it should still be positive regardless, or at the very least not detrimental. I'm more referring to say, using Haste Samba when your, or no one else's, TP set is setup for it, incurring JA delay and TP loss, even loss of additional procs from enspells and such, for no gain, using jumps under high haste without Ryu, overwriting a main War's Warcry with your /War Warcry (unintentional or otherwise, this is rage worthy), attempting to actually keep an Automaton's Maneuvers up while DDing, etc. These types of abilities and many other's are not balanced around the game as it is currently.

Again, I'm all for choice (use x ability for y benefit on z mob, or save for a time when it's more beneficial), but outside of baked in balancing effects, CD's, etc, usage of abilities or spells shouldn't be detrimental to yourself or your group's performance unless it's a gimmick type of thing, no magic damage during this phase, no WSs unless the mobs doing this thing, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

If you are using the job ability right before a weapon skill why are you assuming the delay is 1.3 instead of 1? Also have you tried climatic flourish <wait 1>, step <wait 1>, weaponskill <wait 3>, presto <wait 1>, step <wait 1>, reverse flourish <wait 1>, weaponskill?

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IIRC <wait 1> isn't actually waiting 1 second. It's waiting 1 second and 1 packet cycle, so on average it waits about 1.3 seconds. Every macro line waits 1 packet cycle, which is why they lines don't execute instantly even without wait statements.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If I remember correctly, in FFX you make a choice first, then depending on the action you pick, you may have to wait longer for your next turn.

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That's exactly what I described in the post you quoted.

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Originally Posted by Afania

I don't really agree with forced animation delay, I think it works as part of the battle mechanic atm, so if you remove it, it could ended up being disastrous. Just think of it as "Making a choice and using your resource" in a turn based RPG or strategy game(Sorry if it's too abstract, it's hard to explain this properly). If you make a "move" for certain character or unit, that unit won't be able to move again for a while. So it's part of the game mechanic, and all the job mechanics/content are designed based on the fact that this delay exists.

Because the entire battle system was designed based on the fact that the animation delay exists, so there's a chance that SE can broke the game balance if they remove it...if they even can.

It's quite a lot of the effort to remove the entire animation delay and redesign/rebalance the battle system, when SE can't even balance the battle system using existing battle mechanic.

It seems that the only reason why you want SE to remove it is because "it feels annoying". Personally, I'd rather feel slight more annoyed with the delay, it's much better than seeing SE spending 1 year redesigning a battle system for a 12 year old MMORPG.

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Because these delays keep jobs like PUP and DNC and whatever else out of content because they don't win the almighty parse wars. THAT'S the real annoyance - not being invited because we can't keep up.

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Originally Posted by Mitruya

Because these delays keep jobs like PUP and DNC and whatever else out of content because they don't win the almighty parse wars. THAT'S the real annoyance - not being invited because we can't keep up.

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It is not the delay that kept DNC and PUP away though. Even if they remove delay DNC and PUP are still behind SAM in terms of dmg output, just check spreadsheet and you'd know.........the correct way to fix DNC and PUP is to give them game changing buff/debuff so they get invite, instead of redesign and recode the ENTIRE battle system for them. That's too much effort and it doesn't fix things at all.

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Originally Posted by Afania

It is not the delay that kept DNC and PUP away though. Even if they remove delay DNC and PUP are still behind SAM in terms of dmg output, just check spreadsheet and you'd know.........the correct way to fix DNC and PUP is to give them game changing buff/debuff so they get invite, instead of redesign and recode the ENTIRE battle system for them. That's too much effort and it doesn't fix things at all.

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Oh, I get what you're saying, and I agree. And I've said it before, it's not so much delay with PUP than too-short maneuver duration.

I think the delay wouldn't be so killing if durations were extended and their DD power was increased to offset the delay. But I think the delay needs to be reduced for these jobs at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Afania

It is not the delay that kept DNC and PUP away though. Even if they remove delay DNC and PUP are still behind SAM in terms of dmg output, just check spreadsheet and you'd know.........the correct way to fix DNC and PUP is to give them game changing buff/debuff so they get invite, instead of redesign and recode the ENTIRE battle system for them. That's too much effort and it doesn't fix things at all.

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That makes more sense, and is easier than revamping the entire combat system so I agree. Slash the costs of waltz, boost the potency of steps and sambas. Dancers have the potential to be as good a support as brd. I don't know about pups, but they could just make maneuvers last five minutes like runes. Maybe change the puppet's ai so it will cast haste II on more than just the master, other stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

That makes more sense, and is easier than revamping the entire combat system so I agree. Slash the costs of waltz, boost the potency of steps and sambas. Dancers have the potential to be as good a support as brd. I don't know about pups, but they could just make maneuvers last five minutes like runes. Maybe change the puppet's ai so it will cast haste II on more than just the master, other stuff like that.

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I'd be cool with that.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

That makes more sense, and is easier than revamping the entire combat system so I agree. Slash the costs of waltz, boost the potency of steps and sambas. Dancers have the potential to be as good a support as brd. I don't know about pups, but they could just make maneuvers last five minutes like runes. Maybe change the puppet's ai so it will cast haste II on more than just the master, other stuff like that.

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Honestly, just haste2 for everyone and better pet survive-ability is enough to warrant PUP a spot even if PUP's output stays the same.