Legion still sucks.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

When they remove Abyssea and people learn how to play the game properly?

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Maybe you could produce a guide on what constitutes proper play?

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Who knows, it's just too hard for some people after 2 years of handholding.

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Maybe it's just overtuned content and even those who play "properly" are having trouble with it.

FFXI is not hard at all, if you think it requires much skill then you obviously haven't played many other games. But still I have to see any Legion shouts for groups forming. Seems people in FFXI don't like doing it. I wanted to try it out but that's impossible when nobody even wants to make group for it.

While I don't like people blaming abyssea for people not being able to do the impossible event called legion, you're full of shit if you think for one second abyssea wasn't full of hand holding.

We went from epic battles that required teamwork, knowledge, and a plan, to "Throw DD+WHM at it".

Massive HP boosts. Infinite MP. 2hr spam. Superpowers. Infinite RR Zombie Assault.

That's the epitome of handholding and dumbing shit down.


Abyssea seems like a bigger success than it actually was. The people who liked it stayed and are very vocal about it, while the people who left in mass exodus have no voice. Far more people left because of the abyssea styled content than people who stayed. There's a reason SE considers Abyssea a failure: It hit them in the pocketbook. Abyssea changed some things for the better, but it messed up horribly far more than it helped.

Did right:
Ease of travel
Loot pools
Removed discrimination in EXP
NM and ??? respawns

Did wrong:
Proc systems
Superpowers making gear less important (The purpose of the game is story and gear, Abyssea lacked much of one and devalued the other)
EXP TOO FAST/EASY
Removed social justice
Removed any sense of teamwork/accomplishment (Not one thing in abyssea CAN'T be beaten easily with MNK+WHM)
Excessive temps
Increased job discrimination in everything else
Devalued low level gear and gil
Promotes something for nothing mentality to an extreme level


Let's just be honest here.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

When they remove Abyssea and people learn how to play the game properly? Who knows, it's just too hard for some people after 2 years of handholding.

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Abyssea has absolutely zero to do with people sucking. Sucky people are going to suck, abyssea or no abyssea. It's not like once you hit level 99 and you stop EXPing, that you're unable to learn anything. Such people would be like that anyway.

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We went from epic battles that required teamwork, knowledge, and a plan, to "Throw DD+WHM at it".

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"hand holding' and 'easy" aren't the same thing. Holding ones hand is an act of guidance. Abyssea isn't easy because anyone or anything is guiding you through it. Abyssea has almost no structure to it whatsoever, there is no 'hand" holding you and telling you what to do next. The difficulty level is generally pretty low, but that's not what hand holding is. hand holding is directly guiding and teaching the player and assuming they wouldn't be able to figure it out on their own. It would be the game telling you something like "Congratulations on beating <NM>. Now go here and beat this one!"

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Devalued low level gear and gil

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This isn't a bad thing. Low level gear shouldn't be valuable. The only problem is possibly higher losses while leveling up a new craft.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

When they remove Abyssea and people learn how to play the game properly? Who knows, it's just too hard for some people after 2 years of handholding.

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Originally Posted by Return1

While I don't like people blaming abyssea for people not being able to do the impossible event called legion, you're full of shit if you think for one second abyssea wasn't full of hand holding.

We went from epic battles that required teamwork, knowledge, and a plan, to "Throw DD+WHM at it".

Massive HP boosts. Infinite MP. 2hr spam. Superpowers. Infinite RR Zombie Assault.

That's the epitome of handholding and dumbing shit down.


Abyssea seems like a bigger success than it actually was. The people who liked it stayed and are very vocal about it, while the people who left in mass exodus have no voice. Far more people left because of the abyssea styled content than people who stayed. There's a reason SE considers Abyssea a failure: It hit them in the pocketbook. Abyssea changed some things for the better, but it messed up horribly far more than it helped.

Did right:
Ease of travel
Loot pools
Removed discrimination in EXP
NM and ??? respawns

Did wrong:
Proc systems
Superpowers making gear less important (The purpose of the game is story and gear, Abyssea lacked much of one and devalued the other)
EXP TOO FAST/EASY
Removed social justice
Removed any sense of teamwork/accomplishment (Not one thing in abyssea CAN'T be beaten easily with MNK+WHM)
Excessive temps
Increased job discrimination in everything else
Devalued low level gear and gil
Promotes something for nothing mentality to an extreme level


Let's just be honest here.

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First off, not picking at you two solely, but more at the whole "Abyssea was too easy" crowd.

Have you guys ever thought about not using all the things that made Abyssea too easy in your opinion? You know? No Atmas, no cruore buffs, and no keys for chests. No using fluxes. No using temp items, especially brews.

Well?

And please, let's not use the old "well it'd be silly to not use that stuff since its readily available" answer.

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Originally Posted by Return1

While I don't like people blaming abyssea for people not being able to do the impossible event called legion, you're full of shit if you think for one second abyssea wasn't full of hand holding.

We went from epic battles that required teamwork, knowledge, and a plan, to "Throw DD+WHM at it".

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Oh please, the old battles weren't any more complex, and in many cases were less so than Abyssea NMs. The difference was you needed more people.

Only real problem I have with Legion is that once you fall, you're done. There's no time for recovery, and good luck going a full 5 minutes without one of the wandering NMs still left up not aggroing your whole ally.

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And please, let's not use the old "well it'd be silly to not use that stuff since its readily available" answer.

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But it's true. Good content should be challenging by design, not because you're horribly, horribly gimping yourself. I find amateur boxing fun, but I have no challenges here. However, I don't cut my arm off so these losers stand a chance, I seek out more challenging opponents. Holding back because I have no competition isn't fun. Fighting competition that's worth my time is. This is the reason Abyssea was a massive failure. People felt the same boredom I'm describing and they left.

And now Alhanelem, semantics doesn't really change the point. It was easy to the point of being insulting, and there was more handholding in the sense you're using it in, they made a lot more guidance for abyssea in game than any other event. It flat out says "kill this guy" "get that and bring it here" "this is how this works in more words than you need".

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This isn't a bad thing. Low level gear shouldn't be valuable. The only problem is possibly higher losses while leveling up a new craft.

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ITT: Marginalizing the games currency and eliminating the importance of a large section of the economy isn't a bad thing.

That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum, and I've read suggestions for DRK abilities.

Believe it or not you can wear gear before the 90's.

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Oh please, the old battles weren't any more complex, and in many cases were less so than Abyssea NMs. The difference was you needed more people.

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They were more complex because concepts like distance, TP-moves, timing, two-hours, etc actually mattered. Abyssea nms showed a new level of creativity and complexity, but it didn't matter because you could just curbstomp their pathetic asses.

I want nms outside of these stupid super-powered, temp-fueled zerg-fests like abyssea and VW. Imagine level 99 content that functions like sky or sea, or even better yet, limbus (Please don't let them screw up new limbus...) and has battles with wide ranging strategies and individual gimmicks like many abyssean NMs. They've already shown they can have interesting battles, but they ruined it by making players far more powerful than monsters can hope to handle.

All I want is abyssea -with- competition.

You also need to realize that we are at level 99 now and Abyssea first came out with the 80 cap. Things were harder back when the content was relevant. Sure, atma made it easier, but you can't compare 80-90 content to 99 content as far as difficulty goes at level 99.
Abyssea WAS sort of easy all the way through, but the difficulty was different when it was actually relevant.

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that Legion needs changes. For one, I literally lol'd when I saw the 'points' gear when I did Legion the first time. The difficulty is another thing altogether.