Re-balancing Avatars?

@Zemarin...why don't avatars have more AoE's? It's probably because they all have astral flows that can do over 1k to all mobs in range. Or, because diabolos has a really big cheating one with nightmare.

But, im like you I would have loved to see a "Ancient Magic-aga" for all avatars at lvl 80 or 85. Though, for diabolos I'd have rather gotten a "sleepaga III"...yes 3, I said it.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Yeah, just what every BLM really wants, a SMN to pop out Night Terror, Diabolos dies, BLM dies soon afterwards because sleep timer was down or resisted (Sleepga I isn't all that reliable compared to Sleepga II).

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Remind me again, who is the person always posting negative posts? Because I could swear it is you.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Chaotic Strike and Geocrush add a stun effect, Mountain Buster adds bind, Megalith Throw adds slow, Thunderspark adds paralyze and is the only AOE rage that we have. Moonlit Charge Blinds, and Cresent Fang paralyzes enemy.

Lastly, Diabolos is the only avatar that has a BP ward that can actually deal damage too and with it adding a fairly potent gravity (unless the mob is immune) it's a great addition to soloing if you're going to have to recast your avatar, or need to siphon.

People only use Heavenly Strike or Predator Claws, because they're uninformed. Actually, all of the info is there for them to see, they're just too lazy to look.

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All of your info is accurate, but it's not really showing the entire picture. I agree that people tend to forget details like physical pact damage types, but you cannot honestly argue for using Moonlit Charge in pretty much any situation. Why would you ever use Megalith Throw over Mountain Buster or Geocrush? If you are fighting something that needs to be slowed, you'll probably have someone with you who can do a much better job of it. If you're solo, it's a waste of a rage pact in my opinion. You will be resummoning your avatar anyway. You'd be better off killing it more quickly then trying to enfeeble it.

There are reasons to use avatars other than Garuda and Shiva. You alter your strategies based on monster elemental affinity or damage type, but that doesn't mean that each of the avatars are equally balanced with respect to their abilities.

Diabolos is the only avatar who can deal damage with a ward pact. Great. You still have very little reason to use him. Somnolence is terrible damage and he has no Rage pact that makes him attractive. If I needed Gravity, and you usually do not, I would probably use Leviathan or cast Diabolos for Somnolence and then dismiss him and go right back to the avatar I've been using.

I understand the OP's feelings on the subject. No, Predator Claws and Heavenly Strike are not the end all be all for summoners. If you play that way, you really do not understand how to play the job effectively. That doesn't mean, however, that some, if not most of Avatars could use a little tweaking.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Remind me again, who is the person always posting negative posts? Because I could swear it is you.

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The ratio of negative posts from me to positive posts from me are in the range of 1:3

The ratio of negative posts from you to positive posts from you are in the range of 983:2 (yes, I admit 2 positive posts from you).

There is a difference between the number of negative posts from positive posts, as you can see.

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No, Predator Claws and Heavenly Strike are not the end all be all for summoners. If you play that way, you really do not understand how to play the job effectively.

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I think that is simply the simplification during a discussion. Everyone uses the right pacts when needed. It is just that the amount of HNM that are weak to fire to such a degree that ifrit beats other avatars, is slim to none. I've also not experienced that many HNM with so crazy evasion that I needed to swap over to a single hit BP. The amount of pot HNM and such is also pretty rare, if you happened to wish to use blunt damage.

Overall I usually use other avatars more to resist spells and attacks, than their BPs being better.

Personally, I use Ifrit to toast my bread and Garuda to blow air over it to cool it down afterwards (I used shiva once, but she made it tooooooo cold)


Yes post didn't contribute anything to the conversation. *hangs head in shame*

There really is a lot of simplification at work in this discussion, but it is mostly accurate in saying that most SMN only know to use P.Claws and likely Heavenly Strike above other things..

However, I feel that it isn't what requires balancing. There will always be certain BPs better than others and it really isn't that much of a stretch when a SMN says that P.Claws is better than the others because it really just happens to be so.
In each situation, you can always access what works and what doesn't and pick accordingly, but its not like we don't use P.Claws/H.Strike just because its already used all the time.

What I feel requires some re-balancing are stuff that SMN is missing out on or lacks balance in. Namely these few points.

1) lack of AoE Rage BPs. The only one we have is Thunderspark. It's weak. It's magical. Should have more options.
A stronger AoE Rage BP? A different element? A physical one?

2) avatars cannot make Lv3 skillchains. For that matter, Lv70 BPs still have no skillchain property.. and at this point where they're not exactly superb at Lv90 anymore, one wonders why this is still the case, or why there isn't a better physical BP available as an alternative.
Many other jobs have surpassed us in this respect - most notably PUP, who can very effectively skillchain with their automaton on all types of skillchains.

3) Astral Flow BPs are pretty much worthless at high levels. Sure it's AoE, but it does less damage per target than a single magical Rage BP, and also less damage than a single BLM high level ga or ja, at a much higher MP cost and restricted conditions. For what is supposed to be the avatars most powerful blood pact, SMNs have no real reason to ever use them at all.

4) Lack of a good piercing Rage BP.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It is just that the amount of HNM that are weak to fire to such a degree that ifrit beats other avatars, is slim to none. I've also not experienced that many HNM with so crazy evasion that I needed to swap over to a single hit BP. The amount of pot HNM and such is also pretty rare, if you happened to wish to use blunt damage.

Overall I usually use other avatars more to resist spells and attacks, than their BPs being better.

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Definitely agree with the part I bolded. The stronger your HNM, the more you will begin to rely on your avatars survivability to pick which you will use instead of its damage, because the advantages you gain from avoiding elementally aligned status complications and such can be far more useful than just a little more damage each time your Rage BP happens to go off. The longer the fight, the more this is true.

As for HNMs that really challenge your evasion, you should take a try with T4 Voidwatch part I NMs. They are perhaps the hardest mobs in the game right now, without substantial help from atma to close the accuracy gap.. and I assure you they most certainly give your avatar acc a run for its money. Still, theres not exactly many of them for now.. I'll bet at least 6 of the incoming 27 NMs in Voidwatch part II will pose challenges too.
They are effectively the new upper limit, after all.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Personally, I use Ifrit to toast my bread and Garuda to blow air over it to cool it down afterwards (I used shiva once, but she made it tooooooo cold)


Yes post didn't contribute anything to the conversation. *hangs head in shame*

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Leviathan gets me wet.. with Spring Water.
Garuda blows me.. with her Whispering Wind.
Titan makes me hard.. with Earthen Ward
I think is Ifrit is hot.
High on ice, when Shiva is around.
I can summon Ramuh! Shocking.
When I'm with Carbuncle, I always use protection.. through Shining Ruby.
Fenrir bites.
I feel safer after Diabolos Dream Shrouds on me.. especially against anything that magically comes my way.

*joins you in shame*
some of these were my actual macros a long time ago.

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As for HNMs that really challenge your evasion, you should take a try with T4 Voidwatch part I NMs.

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Nah, no real accuracy issues on them. Tonberry with his mad evasion was a given one though, and Vampire surprised me with how evasive it was. But all the others were easy to hit. And I have zero accuracy merits, just plain skill and gear.

I'd really like Summoning Magic skill to play an even greater part in avatar performance. Accuracy/MAcc is nice but I believe that skill should also affect Attack/MAB as well as the potency of enfeebling/enhancing effects (e.g. Fenrir's Crescent Fang with capped skill should be about as potent as Blaster or Blank Gaze, Ifrit's Meteor Strike with capped skill should be around the range of Fire IV or V at 90).

I posted this somewhere in another forum, but it would also be good if the avatars were given stats that emphasized their different strengths. Some examples:

*Titan--High VIT/Defense/-PDT
*Ifrit--High STR/Attack/Double Attack+
*Garuda--High AGI/Evasion/Triple Attack+
*Leviathan--High MND/MDB/Magic Accuracy Bonus
*Ramuh--High DEX/Accuracy/Critical Hit Bonus
*Shiva--High INT/MAB/Counter+

I can't really think of stats that could fit the terrestrial avatars.

It doesn't take much to recalibrate spirits. Just give them the same spells that Black Mages have gotten since the cap increases and tie skill to MAcc/MAtk.