New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"

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Originally Posted by Dallas

As for damage dealt, you are approaching the dangerously deep end of the pool. The numbers are so high that they can't be measured solo. The job is broken without additional hate tools. Many anecdotes, no numbers.

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If I knew a Melee SMN with your exact gear, I would parse him.

First on DRK
Then on DRG
Then on BLU
Then on MNK
Then on WAR

I'm certain that Melee SMN is a complete waste when the slot could be filled with one of those, and those are just the DDs I have (Not including SMN and BLM).

I have no idea what you're trying to say about hate tools and jobs being broken though...

Simple. The SMN is supposed to summon powerful beings. Because of the pace of the game, SMN is more powerful than those beings. SMN is broken.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Simple. The SMN is supposed to summon powerful beings. Because of the pace of the game, SMN is more powerful than those beings. SMN is broken.

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So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

It won't happen strictly because of .dat modification.

I really like this idea though. It'd be like a stance; Light Arts/Dark Arts, Afflatus Solace/Afflatus Misery, and Inin/Yonin. Ah, Possession/Dissolution (what we currently do now with the summoner and the avatar in two separate bodies).

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I'm certain that Melee SMN is a complete waste when the slot could be filled with one of those, and those are just the DDs I have (Not including SMN and BLM).

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Melee SMNs are the same waste as CORs not subbing WHM. Do they really think their pitiful ranged attacks is going to help the party? It only feeds TP. If we wanted a party member shooting, we'd invite a RNG.

Case in point. You can't choose your arguments for what you want to say. Either COR/WHM and SMN/WHM are the only alternatives, or both can be played in a more damage oriented way.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

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Well yes, that was proven with number crunching. Currently the player is capable of a significantly higher damage output than the summon (largely because of the BP recast). If melee SMN has done anything especially good, it's further illustrated just how weak the avatars are. The very fact that even if the master melees the damage is still way too low says that SMN is just not strong enough (outside of some special, uncommonly used purposes)

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Do they really think their pitiful ranged attacks is going to help the party? It only feeds TP. If we wanted a party member shooting, we'd invite a RNG.

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Any decent COR shooting is not doing "pitiful ranged attacks" and their weapon skills are not far off a RNG. CORs do not have to sub WHM to be effective.

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Either COR/WHM and SMN/WHM are the only alternatives, or both can be played in a more damage oriented way.

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Both can be played in a more damage oriented way. Though one happens to be obviously better than the other.

Thanks Leon, I forgot about /SAM STP+15. Thanks for the corrected numbers.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

(largely because of the BP recast)

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The only reason why a summoner with an emp staff has higher numbers than an avatar meleeing next to them and using BPs also is because of the ODD on the staff. Shame that the avatar doesn't benefit from the ODD, then the numbers would be for the avatar, not the summoner swinger. Nirvana, however, is doing it right.

My point in my post was that the MP usage from a melee SMN is horrendous. Dallas, I saw your melee gear, and you didn't have Evoker's ring at all. Nash hands, I forgot to include in the perp cost, sorry. You saved yourself 33 MP from your 1k+ usage, so it puts you just at...1k usage. Didn't help much.

There is a huge difference between MP usage between the two of us. The time you get enough TP to use a WS without having to use any BPs or meleeing, you would have used all of your MP pool. I would have gained half mine in that time. And neither of us have used any BPs at all. Include BPs, and you have to swing your staff in order to keep your avatar out.

Even if you /SAM, you would still be out of MP before you get your vaunted 300% TP needed to get, what, 60% of your MP back?

Also, what have you melee soloed on to make swinging a staff worth it, like you claim you do all the time? I don't know what party would invite you to swing a staff, unless that party is full of perle SAMs and pink MNKs.

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There is a huge difference between MP usage between the two of us.

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No, there isn't, because I don't really use a lot of specialized DD gear. I still have a lot of perpetuation on. For me, meleeing is mainly speeding up solo play. The only reason you'll really see me meleeing in a party is for skill up; I still get to use the empy WS even when not meleeing, because I prefer using DD atmas for predator claws over using MAB atmas for a magic pact. You are highly overestimating the cost of keeping an avatar out for ~2 minutes.

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The time you get enough TP to use a WS without having to use any BPs or meleeing, you would have used all of your MP pool.

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No, you wouldn't. But again, it's not an issue because I don't go full on DD gear. I'm not Dallas, and I'm not trying to pretend I can compete with Ukon WARs. I also feel I still need WHM sub to ensure that I don't need to stop between fights. When you realize that you're only meleeing for your own benefit when it suits you and not to try to be the best DD in the world, you end up performing probably better than a guy like Dallas that probably doesn't even play the game.

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Also, what have you melee soloed on to make swinging a staff worth it, like you claim you do all the time? I don't know what party would invite you to swing a staff, unless that party is full of perle SAMs and pink MNKs.

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As I said, I don't usually use SMN in a group, except on a "for fun" basis, but when you're in a cruor/time/exp farm, no one really gives a rats behind what you do as long as you're not AFK or a WHM that isn't curing.

Sorry Al, most of that post was in response to Dallas.

I quoted you for reference.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

So you're saying the player is stronger than the avatars?

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Al covered most of it. SMN does more damage overall than the avatar. Yes, Myrkr damage is 0 DMG and SMN is still stronger. At any point the avatar does not land a solid BP on the enemy, the SMN is going to immediately get hate. With the BP, a good -enmity build will keep the SMN safe. -enmity is available in every non-haste slot.

This problem has existed for me for 4 years. I retired Carby back in 2007. I retired Fenrir (weak BPs) in 2008. Garuda became a problem with OA3 Yantok in 2010. Now with Hvergelmir, every hit pulls hate, even with /WHM and perp gear. We don't have a stronger avatar.

While everyone else sat around crying how weak the job is, I doubled in strength. Yet, here we are, in a thread asking for stronger melee SMN buffs. I'm the only one who keeps laughing.