Suggestions to Improve/Rebalance Vanadiel's Divas

i got to give it to Asymptotic for his great ideas, but honestly you seem to be wasting your time, as is everyone else with their suggestions. Think about it. How many people have posted multiple suggestions for creative ways to give DNC some really good abilities? Out of all of those abilities suggested did anyone suggest a triple attack flourish III that is on its own worthless? Doubtful. It just seems like everything anyone suggests just gets over looked.

As far as the wishes for a dispel i think we can pretty much move past that as dispel was one of the first threads created when this forum was made along with a raise dance.

And i cant see us getting any actual enfeeble such as paralyze because then we will be like a NIN. I think the only reason we got weight added to rudra's is because we could already give a gravity effect.

They already said

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Since we will not be adding any party support-type abilities in the September version update

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and since they already have plans to add a new ws and gear for it we are pretty much stuck with Ternary Flourish.

The only thing that stands out in my mind is when they say

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considering how Climatic Flourish goes together very well with Rudra’s Storm and Abyssea areas (specifically talking about Atma here)

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is they plan to make this one shine outside of abyssea. The only problem i have with this is a climactic > rudra's already does really good damage outside of abyssea and i cant see this new weaponskill with Ternary being much better than that because of the unbalancing issues they always talk about. So with that being said what is the point of making another weaponskill that does the same thing as rudra's? If the argument is to let people who dont have Rudra's get a better weaponskill then what is the point of obtaining Rudra's? Futhermore will this make Rudra's worthless in abyssea since it will be that much better outside?

Does anyone really want a Weapon Skill tied to this timer? That would suck arse in my opinion.

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Ternary Flourish - Makes the next attack a triple attack. Additional effect - removes the block on waltzes while saber dance is up for 1 minute / removes the block on sambas while fan dance is up for 1 minute.

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I like the sound of that.

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Originally Posted by Richie

Another idea for an aura ability.

Wehrmacht Parade
Recast: 3 minutes
Duration: 6 minutes or until the Dancer runs out of TP. (lasts three tics at 0% TP)
The Dancer leads an exuberant War Parade, granting all members of the alliance regain while consuming TP. The amount of regain received and TP consumed would increase as the parade marches on.
*Starts out at 1 tp regain for 2 tp consumed. Increases every 36 seconds until the regain:consumtion ratio becomes 5:10 (at three minutes.)
**Radius is 30 yalms.
***The Dancer would not receive the effect of Parade.
****Would effect pets aswell.

Obviously melee would receive a huge boost from this, but since black mages now get TP from spells I think this would help them too. I have a feeling SE might add something worth while for BLM who use TP. Hvellgeregrg users using Myrkr would also appreciate it, I imagine. This would particularly shine in Einherjar type battles. SMN and Pet type jobs would also recieve a large boost from this. The best part is the DNC doesn't really take the "spot" of any key jobs because it doesn't have to be in the DD or mage party to give the effect, of course it would completely stack with all brd and cor buffs.

edit: the historical name is a kind of sinister, but I think it fits in with the German words often used with DNC. German users might not appreciate it though.

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The chances of them extending the aura-type TP draining ability to alliance members and pets is about the same as the probability that I'll spontaneously combust exactly 3.5 seconds after writing this post.

Also regarding the name...while holding the likelihood of drawing ire from particularly the European crowd, German words were used with DNC in our AF quests and that's it. Since then we've only really seen 2 foreign names and they've either been French (Casaque) or Italian (Presto).

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I like the sound of that.

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Consider the lack of precedent for a non-merit ability (Or any ability, or piece of equipment) to reference or enhance a merit ability.

One dispel effect per hit would be nice, but iirc only the first hit of weaponskills can have an additional effect just like how only the first hit can have a different fTP. They'd have to do something like that if they wanted Ternary to be useful though.

Assuming they don't re-work the entire weaponskill system just for us (doing things like allowing additional effects on extra hits, or changing fTP of additional hits), the only way to make Ternary competitive from a damage standpoint is the way I outlined.

Observe~!

* (3~5 FMs) Presto -> Climactic (0 FMs) -> Step (3 FMs) -> NFR (5 FMs) -> Rudra's -> Reverse -> Rudra's -> Darkness
or
* (3~5 FMs) Presto -> Climactic (0 FMs) -> Step (3 FMs) -> Saber Dance -> Rudra's -> 2 rounds -> Reverse -> Rudra's -> Darkness
Total: 3.3 Climactic'd Rudras, 90~95% chance of completing it.

If this buff was totally amazing (like a 100% crit rate on the stacked hit and triple attacks), you could do:
* (5 FMs) -> Evisceration -> Reverse -> NFR -> Ternary -> Rudra's -> Darkness
* (5 FMs) -> Presto -> Evisceration -> Reverse -> Step -> Ternary -> Rudra's -> Darkness
Total: Evisceration, 2.3 Ternary'd Rudra's, 95~100% chance of completing it

You can replace "Evisceration" with "Opening WS" and "Rudra's" with "High fTP Closing WS" and the comparison remains the same regardless what WS they give us. The only way to increase the damage value of Ternary Flourish is to make a ridiculously low-fTP modifier-heavy WS, or to make it almost exactly like Rudra's but Distortion instead of Darkness property.

I'd obviously prefer something like what you guys are describing, but I think a WS system rework just so Dancers can feel special is unlikely at this point. Additional hits are going to have 1 fTP and additional effects are only going to proc off the main hit.

If you want to take a Carnage Rapier/Blade/Sword, figure out the max you can drain, and Vorpal some shit (looking at HP before and after) to prove me wrong, be my guest, but I haven't noticed any increase in effect accuracy on stuff like Full Break or Shadowstitch from increasing hits, which is something you'd predict. Also, I've noticed that the "main" hit of the weaponskill also is likely the last hit, which explains why Shadowstitch doesn't break its own bind. You can test this with mobs that cast Utsusemi and forced DA/TA abilities.

Well they could always make it dispel 3 things to make it like it was dispelling 1 thing per hit. that would be the easy fix for this. But i really cant see them giving us a way to dispel more then 1 thing as to not "overpower" us and therefore "unbalancing" us as tends to be their response to anything and everything anyone suggests as an idea.

If they wanted to make this ability useful WITH the other flourishes they could make it so the flourishes 3 category had charges like stratagems. Then you could pull off some Ternary > Climactic > WS of your choice. And you could totally pull that off with

3~5FM > Presto > Ternary > Step > Climactic > WS > NFR > Reverse > WS = Skillchain
or even
3~5FM > Presto > Climactic > WS > Step > Ternary > WS > NFR > Reverse > WS = Skillchain

This would make Ternary useful. But this is a highly unlikely scenario.

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

The chances of them extending the aura-type TP draining ability to alliance members and pets is about the same as the probability that I'll spontaneously combust exactly 3.5 seconds after writing this post.

Also regarding the name...while holding the likelihood of drawing ire from particularly the European crowd, German words were used with DNC in our AF quests and that's it. Since then we've only really seen 2 foreign names and they've either been French (Casaque) or Italian (Presto).

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It doesn't have to hit pets, that would just make it better for more jobs. As for the name, I was referring to the kriegstanz, schwerttanz and gauklertanz stuff, but as you can see I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about it as you are. The truth is, I'm not that particular about the name at all... though I like the idea of it being a parade seeing as it would be a grand effect. As I woke up more I began to realize just how bad the name was. @_@ I like the name ticker-tape parade, but that is only because I want to experience one in real life, lol.

Really, the key idea I wanted to stress here is an alliance wide aura, which is as you implied, very unlikely to be implemented. I feel was too specific within the layout of the ability, but I had figured it is better to ask for a lot and get enough, rather than ask for enough and get something disappointing. Maybe the regain should be lower or the consumed TP should be higher, what I was aiming for was the Sea Dog atma. The idea behind this ability having a one minute recast is so the DNC could keep using it as it is ready, which would keep the TP consumption low therefor making it possible to keep the effect up with only steps. I personally don't think this is an unreasonable ability (except for the pets part lol) and I feel it would give fights like the ones for voidwatch a nicer flow to them. I could very well be failing to consider any horrible ways that an alliance wide regain could be abused though.

I don't want to make it seem like I'm really fighting for this specific idea over any of the others presented in this thread. I welcome and appreciate all criticism to my suggestions, which are generally just passing thoughts. Quite frankly I'm fine with DNC the way it is and would be pleased to receive a boost like any of the suggestions in the OP, and most throughout this thread.

In regards to the points Byrth brought up, I know that multi hit WS do not end in the final hit from using both penta thrust and evi/pyrrhic in ballista into utsusemi for years. Granted, that is ballista, I'm willing to bet it is the same outside. I'm fairly certain Pyrrhic kleos' additional effect evasion down also procs on WS where you only receive 8 tp (again from ballista). I think you are right, though, if that it was infact too difficult to program we would not recieve it. I wouldn't mind an erase WS based on TP as asymptotic proposed. Just like the dispel WS, It would be a 1 hit WS that erases multiple effects based on the number of "hits", hits from the main hand dagger only would count. Number of hits increase with TP. maybe it'd heal some HP too (if I really want to make you spontaneously combust, why not throw in a 15% haste too>:D, jk<0<; )



In finishing, I'd like to apologize for the large post. :n
I understand that my suggestions are far overreaching, but if you see any you like let's discuss them down to something reasonable.

I went out and did Striking -> Shark Bite on NIN mobs with 2 shadows (because I was assuming the DA would be last and wanted to see its damage) and kept getting 5 TP return and higher damage than I should have from 1 fTP. Single wielding, of course

whaaat, very interesting. I was wrong m(_ _)m Thanks lol
I want to try with pyrrhic khleos, and in ballista to make sure i'm not crazy <_<; (I can't play at the moment or else I would've tested myself before running my mouth)

Well, this was back when I was doing testing for Striking Flourish so it isn't exactly current.