Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

Somehow i picture this being a cheap stun that they intended to be our version of perfect counter.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

The job updates in general made me happy. The Thief update, however, is sad.

No matter how many times I read the text for Bully, all I can see is "Feral Howl II: A Job Ability Sucks Again"

I'd like to think it's better than it sounds, given what other jobs are getting, but given the development team's weird ideas about Steal and Mug I am less than optimistic. The robotic pterodactyl named BAD END is circling.

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I like the wording of Bully. It certainly fits THF. It's a rogue. It's a tough guy. Generally when you bully(and I say this with zero experience as being a bully nor being bullied so I guess I'm kind of pulling crap from my ass here)you strike fear into the victim, hence my idea that in game it freezes your foe in fear aka terror so you can run around and SA it.

Even if this ability worked without the mob facing you, I think THFs in general are tired of JAs that help anyone but themselves. It won't be long before we're considered a support job at this rate.

I personally would have called it extortion. Sounds cooler.

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Originally Posted by Khajit

I personally would have called it extortion. Sounds cooler.

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the "X" in Extortion makes it sound cool.

20% cooler!

Xtreme Xtortion!!!

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Originally Posted by Laphine

then again, the thf spreadsheet is not using solo ws between sa/taed ones. And we should be able to use SA+RS -> evis -> TA+RS -> evis and still keep the aftermath 100% up with all that haste. I pretty much can do this inside abyssea with magic haste only.

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The spreadsheet should be able to manage that mix of SA+WS/TA+WS/solo WS. I can only see solo weaponskills not showing up if the total time for gaining TP for SA+WS and TA+WS (in the spreadsheet calculations) puts the SA timer back up. Possibly an issue with the spreadsheet configuration?

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

What the math doesn't take into account is that you can't reliably SA once mobs start riding spinnars. It doesn't count retaliation damage/TP either I assume? Spreadsheets are good for comparing gear sets but imo when you start using them to compare jobs it's just for shits and giggles.

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The spreadsheet can be configured to not use either SA (can't get behind mob) or TA (no second person to TA onto), so you can look at how your damage changes based on what sort of conditions you're operating under.


To those doubting the full validity of the spreadsheets, please continue to do so. I'm the one who wrote them, and I'm well aware of the gaps in what they can account for. But also look into what shows the greatest weaknesses, and what may be getting blown out of proportion. For example, in the config I have on mine right now (high haste config), going from solo SA to no SA at all drops DPS from 361 to 358; almost inconsequential. In the other config (low haste), it drops from 232 to 224, somewhat more significant. Either way, even if you only land SA 80% of the time, it shouldn't be hurting your total DPS *too* much.

It's easiest for me to work around the gaps, though, since I know where most of those are, and can account for them. It may be more difficult for someone who's not intimately familiar with all the things the spreadsheet does, though I've tried to streamline and simplify things as much as possible.

Also, the spreadsheets take a lot of time and work to put together, and different spreadsheets are at different stages of 'advancement'. The thf spreadsheet was probably the most complicated to put together, and I welcome any feedback on ways to improve it. The war spreadsheet is one of the older ones, and could probably use some updates.


(and after writing this all out, I see a slew of additional posts on the comparison being made; I'll have to poke around with those)

Please do, given both of us are probably botching somewhere (Make no mistake I don't claim to be a spreadsheet master) it'd be nice for you to give them equal buffs/etc inside and outside of abyssea. I'm sure every THF would appreciate it, and it'd at least stop the "THF is bad DD" vs. "THF is a mediocre DD" or "THF is a good DD" debates for awhile.

Also, I propose Shake Down as the new ability's name.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the spreadsheets. I'm saying there are some things you just can't quantify. They are a useful tool to an extent but trying to apply the math to in game situations rarely ever works.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

That's interesting.

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/w...urrent=THF.jpg

http://s724.photobucket.com/albums/w...urrent=WAR.jpg

Those are what your spreadsheets are showing for me, and those stats are vastly different.

Some seem to have changed recently, however several of the issues are still there.

Though again, it's INSIDE that lets THF not be so far behind WAR. Outside on VT-IT stuff WAR decimates us.

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I thought you were going to download them and experiment with things lol. Well i reuploaded them with some changes. Linky. I just noticed that war doesn't have base DA at 15%, oh well.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

The spreadsheet should be able to manage that mix of SA+WS/TA+WS/solo WS. I can only see solo weaponskills not showing up if the total time for gaining TP for SA+WS and TA+WS (in the spreadsheet calculations) puts the SA timer back up. Possibly an issue with the spreadsheet configuration?

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Yeah this is curious. I think i remember it behaving like that before. But that was what i got now. I do use excel 2010, i wonder if that's the issue...

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

What the math doesn't take into account is that you can't reliably SA once mobs start riding spinnars.

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You can. it's not hard. Tell the other melee(s) to stand opposite you. Once you're hate capped, pretty much every action will spin the mob. Just hit SA as soon as you see the other hate-capped melee land a hit. You can land SA very reliably once you realise that the mob doesn't spin randomly, but spins on last actions. Sure, you wont land it all the time, the War could land an attack round, then get critted in the face, losing enmity and forcing the mob to spin back whilst you're waiting on JA delay, but it works the majority of the time.

Presumed constant elements:

Target: Bhukis
Area: Outside Abyssea
Buffs: Haste
Food: Pizza +1 (acc is a real issue here for both jobs)
Merits: full weapon (GA or dagger), 5% crit, 5 str (forgot to change to 8; don't feel like redoing)
Weapons: Empyreal for both
Gear: tricky to be completely fair, but I'll try to set up solid sets for each
War gets /sam
Thf gets /nin


Variables:
War with/without Berserk/Agressor, with/without Hasso, plus overall average
Thf with various combinations of SA and TA use and stacking


Complications on war:
Percentage distribution of combinations of Berserk/Aggressor/Blood Rage

For Berserk/Aggressor:
3 minute fight: 100%
5 minute fight: 60%
7 minute fight: 71%
10 minute fight: 50%
Very long term average: 43.2%

In the abstract, the 43.2% number should be used. However one can almost always expect that timers will be reset by the time of the next fight, so will mostly be using numbers that are more biased towards matching up. I'm going to use the 50% value.

Likewise odds of neither buff being up can be as high as 28% (at about 4 minutes), but drop down to 11.5% at about 13 minutes. I'm going to use 15% here.

That leaves 35% of the time with one or the other buff up. Giving the advantage to merited Berserk here, I'll put those at 20% Berserk only and 15% Agressor only.

I'll be highly optimistic and place Blood Rage in periods with both Berserk and Aggressor active.

So we have:

Berserk+Aggressor+Blood Rage = 10%
Berserk+Aggressor = 40%
Berserk = 20%
Aggressor = 15%
Neither = 15%

And the same with and without Hasso (depending on the conditions of the fight).

Code:

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            Hasso      Seigan
BAR      113.001      93.756
BA        101.179      83.956
B        101.053      82.815
A          75.866      62.912
N          75.768      62.023

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With overall weighted averages:

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Bison Steak (first pass on numbers)
Total      92.823      72.949
Pizza +1
Total      94.727      78.261

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Now for thf:

Will consider various combinations of being able to land SA and TA, with or without Rudra's (ODD adjusted appropriately).

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No SA/TA or Rudra's:        51.876
No SA, Solo TA, solo Evis:  54.658
Solo SA/TA, solo Evis:      58.585
Solo SA, TA Rudra:          68.822
Solo TA, SA Rudra:          69.240
SA & TA Rudra:              78.499
No SA (miss), TA Rudra:      63.101

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So best case for thf matches the war's damage if war can't use Hasso, but short term (when all of war's JAs line up) war will do a lot better. If war can use Hasso, they win by a fair margin (~20%) both short and long term.

Most likely the thf is going to lose a few points from missing SA+Rudra (get ODD, don't get stacked ws) some of the time (3% DPS loss from missing 1 in 5).


Also, I'll be uploading new versions of the war and thf spreadsheets shortly (general cleanup on war, a couple minor fixes for thf), so you can see what gear I happened to pick for the comparison (didn't spend a lot of time trying to optimize the gear).

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Target: Bhukis
Area: Outside Abyssea

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Even though the hypothetical healer for this hypothetical situation is only hypothetical, I can hear him crying and screaming and pounding his hypothetical Cure V macro. He's pounding that hypothetical Cure V macro as if it's the reason for every hypothetical problem in his hypothetical life.

The result is interesting. As somebody who is usually on a support job or a weird melee job, I did not expect Thiefy Thiefington to come that close to Warry Warrington going all-out. It makes me wonder how Thief's damage would fare if it ever gains Dual Wield III naturally, and could sub Warrior when damage taken wasn't a concern.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

You can. it's not hard. Tell the other melee(s) to stand opposite you. Once you're hate capped, pretty much every action will spin the mob. Just hit SA as soon as you see the other hate-capped melee land a hit. You can land SA very reliably once you realise that the mob doesn't spin randomly, but spins on last actions. Sure, you wont land it all the time, the War could land an attack round, then get critted in the face, losing enmity and forcing the mob to spin back whilst you're waiting on JA delay, but it works the majority of the time.

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I know this stuff but what isn't being and can't be quantified is the extra time you spend looking for the right moment to SA. If you ride the timer on SA you are gonna miss way more than 80% of them or you will have to turn for a second or 2. For instance if you activate SA the WAR takes a hit you get hate back and the mob turns and starts casting so either you run around to the other side or count that SA as a loss. You also can't put all the other DD on 1 side of the mob on tons of NMs. For example Bhukis.. if they are all standing on one side you are looking at getting everyone of them doomed except you just so you can land SA more reliably. You just can't do that on any mob with a cone attack. It's not reasonable to ask people to do that on an ironclad type mob with cone melee or a MNK mob because of counters and guards. TA is easy and you can ride the timer no problem but with SA there's a whole series of variables that are stacked against you getting the max potential out of it.

Just a minor note regarding the issues Insaniac brings up:

Yes, that's certainly an issue. It's roughly accounted for in the spreadsheet by allowing you to specify an average amount of time beyond the recast timer for you to be able to use the abilities. The default is 5 seconds, which corresponds to being able to use the ability anywhere from 0 to 10 seconds after the recast is up, which should cover most minor fluctuations. It does not, however, account for lost melee damage from the times you may need to turn away briefly.

As for the conal issue, no, you don't want all the DDs stacked on one side of the mob. At the same time, most of the DDs don't want to be in front of the mob anyway, so usually they'll try to let the 'tank' keep hate as much as possible rather than spin the mob and have to eat that doom move, which in turn makes it easier to land SA.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Just a minor note regarding the issues Insaniac brings up:

Yes, that's certainly an issue. It's roughly accounted for in the spreadsheet by allowing you to specify an average amount of time beyond the recast timer for you to be able to use the abilities. The default is 5 seconds, which corresponds to being able to use the ability anywhere from 0 to 10 seconds after the recast is up, which should cover most minor fluctuations. It does not, however, account for lost melee damage from the times you may need to turn away briefly.

As for the conal issue, no, you don't want all the DDs stacked on one side of the mob. At the same time, most of the DDs don't want to be in front of the mob anyway, so usually they'll try to let the 'tank' keep hate as much as possible rather than spin the mob and have to eat that doom move, which in turn makes it easier to land SA.

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I think your spreadsheets are an amazing work. I'm not trying to take anything away from them. I would never try to blame you for not quantifying things that can't be quantified. The only thing I'm trying to get across are that these X-factors for THF only widen the gap between the THF and WAR spreadsheet results.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

It makes me wonder how Thief's damage would fare if it ever gains Dual Wield III naturally, and could sub Warrior when damage taken wasn't a concern.

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In that hypothetical case, using the best combo (stacked SA and TA Rudra) but no other changes, DPS is 102.990 with Berserk up and 82.315 with Berserk down; weighted average is 94.72, on par with war using Hasso.

I made some edits to the OP like I said I would weeks ago. Mostly trying to better represent the content of the thread since it has become much more than just THF rage (which there is still plenty of) The main thing was links to adjustment ideas posted in the thread. I tried to catch as many as I could but may have missed them if they were short posts. If anyone has one they would like included find it and post the link and I will add it if it's not already covered in one of the other posts.

It was funny skimming back through the pages and seeing the different directions the thread had taken. The basic cycle is:

SE posts something > We rage > we calm down and discuss > we digress a bit > SE trolls us again and the process repeats

Thanks for taking the time to plug in numbers from what was just me day-dreaming. I wasn't expecting that.

So all it would take for Thief to stand on fairly level ground with the most damaging jobs at 99 is if their Dual Wield grew every eight levels, similar to the growth rate of Critical Attack Bonus. That doesn't sound unrealistic at all, which makes it all the more depressing that it's very unlikely to happen.

Will also add one extra note to the factor of scaling damage with haste. When adding just one March (not double-march; am allowing the second to be scherzo or mambo or whatever is appropriate for a dangerous mob), war's DPS increases by 33% (Hasso) or 27% (Seigan), while thf's DPS increases by 12.5% with both SA/TA stacking, and up to 19% with only TA stacking (though the total DPS is lower than in the 12.5% increase's case).

Hasso war ends up about 42.5% ahead of best-case thf, while Seigan war ends up about 12.5% ahead. The hypothetical DW3+/war thf improves by about 20%, so the gap between fully offensive thf vs fully offensive war would still remain at about the 20% range.

So even for the comparisons where, under optimal conditions, thf can match war, as soon as a brd is added war pulls waaay ahead of thf. Thf gets too bogged down in JA timer limitations to be able to take full advantage of the extra haste (though part of that is the fault of the spreadsheet which can't easily deal with complex mixtures of stacked and held TP).

And of course as Insaniac points out, war pretty much always works at best-case or better (Retaliation), while thf usually works below best-case.

On the other hand, thf has faaar better raw survivability than war. Any time I'm not on thf, dnc or mnk, I always feel like I'm naked and have a massive target painted on my back (and front.. and head). War can manage with good support, but it's always painful to watch them try to survive anything even mildly difficult if they're not being constantly babysat.

I could certainly live with the trade-off in survivability vs offensive power if SE would make a more serious effort to work on the utility aspects.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Stats, etc.

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I'm gonna need to check the math behind this at some point. I have plenty of experience of THF not being able to get 25% of the WAR's damage, so much in fact that I'd call it the average. I have a very hard time accepting that THF can get even near the ballpark of WAR's overall numbers. I know that this still isn't fully accurate and doesn't account for many things that rate WAR further up (Retaliation bonus, Restraint bonus, JA recast bonus in between fights) and others that would rate THF down (SA/TA reliability), but it still seems way too close to be even remotely believeable. I consider both my WAR and my THF great, in fact I'd say my THF is even better geared overall. And just yesterday I killed Koios on THF (~3min55s) and on WAR (~1min20s). I didn't use SA/TA on THF at all, but SA/TA don't give as much bonus as some people make it out to be. Even perfectly SA/TAing I couldn't see me get under 3min on THF (probably not even under 3min30, as I said, it's very overrated), which would still be noticeably less than 50% of the WAR. And it was inside Abyssea, where THF gets a larger boost, outside my THF might as well be throwing pebbles compared to my WAR.

I'll need to find a decent outside NM to test it on, to get some actual numbers. Any suggestions? Right now, those numbers seem quite impossible to me.

@Arcon:

Well, you don't really have to go outside to test. You can pick a mob inside Abyssea and just not get any atma or cruor buffs (well, maybe HP buff).

Am trying to think of one that would be decently difficult without risking debuffs that can randomly vary per fight (eg: paralyze, stun, absorb damage, plague, etc). And really, Koios is probably one of the easiest choices. Occasional stoneskin is the main issue if you have a tough time getting through it without buffs. Hmm. Maybe the lizard Sirrush in Mis Coast? Also may be a more manageable fight if you're doing without buffs.

A couple fights each, where you can compare average melee and weaponskill damage, plus average time per weaponskill, etc. Should be able to get at least a ballpark DPS. Would probably also suggest war fight at least once both with and without Retaliation.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

@Arcon:

Well, you don't really have to go outside to test. You can pick a mob inside Abyssea and just not get any atma or cruor buffs (well, maybe HP buff).

Am trying to think of one that would be decently difficult without risking debuffs that can randomly vary per fight (eg: paralyze, stun, absorb damage, plague, etc). And really, Koios is probably one of the easiest choices. Occasional stoneskin is the main issue if you have a tough time getting through it without buffs. Hmm. Maybe the lizard Sirrush in Mis Coast? Also may be a more manageable fight if you're doing without buffs.

A couple fights each, where you can compare average melee and weaponskill damage, plus average time per weaponskill, etc. Should be able to get at least a ballpark DPS. Would probably also suggest war fight at least once both with and without Retaliation.

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Good ideas. For that matter, could leave out Restraint as well, to see if it approaches the predicted numbers with those things out of the balance. Without those it should be ~95 for WAR, ~52 for THF?

Sirrush would be a really good choice. No note-worthy defensive strengths, and he's almost as dangerous as a sharpened bread crust. He has lots of HP in spite of these things, so you could see the effects of the Warrior's berserk going down for a bit.

what do u guys think warrior be doing on the VWNMS the same things they do in abyssea?

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Will also add one extra note to the factor of scaling damage with haste. When adding just one March (not double-march; am allowing the second to be scherzo or mambo or whatever is appropriate for a dangerous mob), war's DPS increases by 33% (Hasso) or 27% (Seigan), while thf's DPS increases by 12.5% with both SA/TA stacking, and up to 19% with only TA stacking (though the total DPS is lower than in the 12.5% increase's case).

Hasso war ends up about 42.5% ahead of best-case thf, while Seigan war ends up about 12.5% ahead. The hypothetical DW3+/war thf improves by about 20%, so the gap between fully offensive thf vs fully offensive war would still remain at about the 20% range.

So even for the comparisons where, under optimal conditions, thf can match war, as soon as a brd is added war pulls waaay ahead of thf. Thf gets too bogged down in JA timer limitations to be able to take full advantage of the extra haste (though part of that is the fault of the spreadsheet which can't easily deal with complex mixtures of stacked and held TP).

And of course as Insaniac points out, war pretty much always works at best-case or better (Retaliation), while thf usually works below best-case.

On the other hand, thf has faaar better raw survivability than war. Any time I'm not on thf, dnc or mnk, I always feel like I'm naked and have a massive target painted on my back (and front.. and head). War can manage with good support, but it's always painful to watch them try to survive anything even mildly difficult if they're not being constantly babysat.

I could certainly live with the trade-off in survivability vs offensive power if SE would make a more serious effort to work on the utility aspects.

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This sounds more correct. 42.5% ahead of a best case THF. I don't really care about the "survivability" unless I'm solo/duo with my wife's WHM. If I'm in an alliance on real stuff, we have a tank, if it's trash, she can heal through. Worse case scenario I pop seigan for a few third eye hits then swap back, and I didn't have to do that much.

There are some issues with the war spreadsheet inside abyssea but doesn't change anything to discuss outside stuff.

I liked these new numbers too. The main reason my war was worse was probably the lack of Blood Rage. Another thing was 5 hit (which i was using) being worse than 6 hit outside. On the overall comparison i should have used an elvaan war with 8 str merits vs my mithra with 8 dex merits. I imagine elvaan war should pull ahead of hume by the same amount a mithra thf does.

My comparison also had no haste with the exception of hasso for war. This was another edge for thf like a said from the very start. Without haste, and using the new spreadsheets kinematics uploaded, i got war with 81 dps and thf with 72. With haste thf sits at 78.5 dps and war JUMPS to 101 dps. A very big difference. Part of this difference is, i imagine, what kinematics said: the spreadsheet can't deal with complex mixture of stacked and held tp.

Out of curiosity Kinematics, how do you control the uptime of the WAR's JAs? Manually at their bonuses? Seems like blood rage has a 100% uptime as it is. This could represent a quick fight, but it's certainly an edge for war currently. But i guess i would have to do the overall average like you showed before. When i get 113 dps on set 1 and 93 on set 2, is it BAR up vs BAR completely down? A problem i see is that Blood rage can only be up 50% of the zerk and aggressor do. Is it like that currently?

Here is what i'm understanding. Set 1 is Berserk and Aggressor up. Set 2 is no Berserk or Agressor up. If i use 50% of the bonus of blood rage on set 1 and 0% on set 2, does it sound reasonable? I got a 96 dps like that. Pretty close to your 94 average. Actually the ratio between the sets are swapped now (probably related to set1 being no berserk before). 180 should be set 1 and 120 set two. I would change blood rage bonus to 33% on set one then. I got 99 dps with these changes lol.

Actually it's all wrong! Thf had 85 twash on and war was with ukon 90! bad bad! lol War also had an issue with hasso only being up on set 1.

But i gotta say. This was still all thf/nin, and fighting such a tough mob outside, thf/war is an obvious choice for me. And the difference between thf/war and war/sam is very small.

New numbers:
THF/NIN (hume + using love torque for more crits)
no haste at all: 79.2 dps
hasted: 86.1 dps

THF/NIN (le pwners = mithra thf = capped crit rate)
no haste at all: 82.4 dps
hasted: 89.9 dps

THF/WAR (le pwners more = mithra thf)
no haste at all: 93.9 dps
hasted: 101.3 dps

WAR/SAM (hume)
no hasso: 73.4 dps
only hasso: 86.2 dps
hasso+haste: 108.6 dps

WAR/SAM (elvaan)
no hasso: 75.4 dps
only hasso: 87.8 dps
hasso+haste: 110.6 dps

even on THF I 8/8'd STR merits :X Never would change that.

Anyway, on the Vacuum-Math Theorycraft: I'm skeptical, very very very skeptical, because it logically defies all experience i've ever had. I'd say I'm too used to Abyssea but even then I do outside Abyssea content with a DRK, and he usually curb-stomps me in damage as well (and the fugger subs THF), then again, he has Caladbolg, and I currently have no Relic or Empyrean... Plus Last Resort is pretty boss...

However if all of this is true, I'd like to see some real practical parses, despite popular belief, human error is normal, and I'd like to see some results where human error is factored, because it will play a role in final results every time, since none of us are robots.

Thanks in advanced :O

Sheesh, THf already steals from mobs, now they get to "bully" them, who dosn't want a job that is a comepelte A-hole to mobs.

Next on the list "Push" : knocks the mob back and occasionaly takes thier lunch money while shouting profanity.

Well of course, parses will never be taken seriously. The closest thing we'll get is what Kin just put up factoring in missed SAs. It's easy enough to keep your WAR JAs on cooldown, and the chance of overflow TP can be held true for both, etc.

It also gives a fairly accurate description. I erased every parse I had (I stopped playing awhile ago) but on tough stuff outside, even my near perfect geared THF would be outdone by a near perfect geared WAR by 40%~. As stated before, my SA miss rate was around 15% on average.

i posted some new numbers back on the last page~

Decided to record einherjar because we had a lvl90 Ukon and a lvl90 twash. Unfortunately someone decided to mpk most of our DDs with some blizzaga IIIs. Anyway the only 2 DDs that didn't die were me on DRG and the 90 twash THF so this turned into 90Rhongo vs. 90Twash. Neither one of us had any outside buffs other than tect and shell (lazy whm). The mobs where triple bats ghosts and a corse boss so there was a copious amount of att down and a little paralyze. AnywHay. On to the results.

Code:

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Damage Summary
Player              Total Dmg  Damage %  Melee Dmg  Range Dmg  Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg  Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
THF/NIN              58073      15.72 %      32015          0          0      26058          0          0
DRG/SAM              74064      20.05 %      33090          0        4366      36608          0          0
Wyvern              6437        1.74 %        3906            0        2531          0          0          0

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So, with the wyvern included a lowly goon still beat THF by 27.8% with no haste other than hasso on old content mobs.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

Actually it's all wrong! Thf had 85 twash on and war was with ukon 90! bad bad!

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.... doh! Only checked that empyrean weapon was in hand, forgot to check level.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

Out of curiosity Kinematics, how do you control the uptime of the WAR's JAs?

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From what you wrote in your post, it seems you expect the spreadsheet to give you overall averages. It doesn't. Each set is used to set up a single specific state (Berserk up, Agressor up, different gear, etc). It's impossible to pre-configure appropriate blend values for all possible JA combinations, so it's up to you to work out the math on that yourself (such as my B/A/R distributions).

You then set one of the sets to the state you want values for. The second set allows you to do direct comparisons, or simple blendings. For example, Blood Rage was active because I was checking the configuration with that +B+A. It's not active 100% of the time; I weighted that result as 10% of the total DPS.

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Originally Posted by Laphine

On the overall comparison i should have used an elvaan war with 8 str merits vs my mithra with 8 dex merits.

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That would not be a valid comparison, then.

Had forgotten about Restraint til Arcon reminded me. Worked out calculations for it and added it to the war spreadsheet (new version uploaded). That gives war another ~6% boost in DPS on average (12%-13% DPS gain, up 50% of the time).

Top end values (since I don't feel like re-running the full average):

War/sam, all JAs, Hasso: 127.332 (111.983 without Blood Rage)
Mnk/war, all JAs: 112.657 (war is 13% ahead, or on par when Blood Rage is down); drops to 79.242 if /nin
Thf/nin, best case, lvl 90 Rudra: 82.234 (mnk is 37% ahead, war is 55% ahead with Blood Rage); /war is basically the same DPS

What are we trying to figure out anyway now? That War is stronger than Thf for DD? Didn't we already know that?

yeah, but ppl always say "thf is so weak lolz" and assume it as unchangeable truth. I think what we are trying to do is move away from old definitions and check the current real numbers. If by some miracle thf did do better than the champions, that's a complete change in paradigm. And actually, maybe we might have come close to that, considering thf/war on low haste and against such a hard target does very well comparativelly.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Thf/nin, best case, lvl 90 Rudra: 82.234 (mnk is 37% ahead, war is 55% ahead with Blood Rage); /war is basically the same DPS

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Same dps as before or same dps as nin? if the latter, did you set berserk up? lol

However as soon as you bring in difficult targets with no haste buffs (read a difficult or high leveled fight that isn't zerged) you often move into the realm of dangerous TP moves. So essentially we're descovered that the situations where thief would do well comparable to other heavier DDs are situations where you dont want many melees anyway.

kinda lol. But Bukhis as parameter isn't much different than gods at lv 75. I never really (needed to) zerg gods. I imagine the middle tier vnms and new dyna nms should be around lv 100 as well. I don't think we need to zerg them.

Well might as well check weaker targets too~

Lv 97 with Dia and red curry as food. The max performance to be quick is the following.
THF/NIN
no haste: 139.7
haste: 152.9
THF/WAR
no haste: 166.1
haste: 181.1
WAR/SAM
no hasso: 148.9
just hasso: 172.2
just haste: 182
haste+hasso: 217

War is super valued by haste again. A reasonable "just haste" war (with seigan) is 19% better than THF/NIN with haste. If the war can go crazy with haste+hasso i see no reason why thf can't go crazy with thf/war. The difference is close to 20% on this case, but at least the war doesn't wipe the floor with the thf/nin lol.

From what i read here...

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

The best make THF the best in everything! SE give them black magic/dark magic/white magic too! ^^

This is response to people who still complain, why his job can't out damage WAR or other top DDs - face it THF isnt heavy DD its TH whore lol with some nice tool for fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragni

You guys want to be the best DDs, the best tanks etc... You have already very good evasion for tanking, good melee capabilities and th!

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You should have gotten the other way around. I think in almost every single page of rage we had, we said we didn't want to be the best, we just wanted the gap between the best and us decreased.

No one is complaning we can't out dd a war, a war exists for the sole reason of damage, of course it deserves to be the best. But TH cannot be used as an excuse anymore. Not when subbed TH is very much the same of the main TH. And not when a bunch of jobs is getting TH now.