I didnt forget anything, those have to proc to work, ODD comes from ws with your empyrean, the difference between the two is painted brightly on the wall, and you are ignoring or forgetting the points made, in which empyreans are strongly leaned on enhancing the jobs they are for and their modifiers and such show this, relics however are more old school traited and suited for original jobs, this cannot be disputed by anyone. And Even if they are adjusting relics it isnt our current reality, we are not 99, this is mundane and borderline idiocy to even try to give facts that say newer jobs can benefit from relics more than empyreans. And once again, ill say it a 3rd time, relic takes longer and is weaker, empy takes days-week. Do the math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Briarb19
Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation
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11-06-2011, 10:16 AMWinrie
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11-06-2011, 10:42 AMAlhanelemNo, it really wouldn't. Plus said new staff could be BLM/SCH. SMN doesn't give a rats behind about magic attack bonus, thus Claustrum would still make sense for them (though the Empy staff stomps all over it)Quote:
To actually take your suggestion though, giving a Scholar a new staff with a MAB producing Weapon Skill (I really should point out that's what Omniscience does on our Mythic with 200TP) would still be unfair to Summoner and Black Mage.
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11-06-2011, 11:05 AMSotekSo Summoner is screwed, spend 150m+ on Claustrum or get Hvergelmir to the stage where it beats Claustrum absolutely free. Nice comeback there, champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Adjust Claustrum to not suck and slap Scholar on it, far better solution. The only benefit of your suggestion is that it requires 100TP less than both Black Mage and Scholars Mythics to get some Magic Attack Bonus. Still an absolutely worthless weapon unless its weapon skill gives 500MAB. -
11-06-2011, 11:17 AMAlhanelemNo, leave Claustrum as it is, because it is of some use to one of the jobs that can use it, if that's what you want to get; And add a new weapon that is of a bit more interest to nuking mages. you still fail to understand that while I proposed some example stats, that it could be anything, as long as it was a new weapon, and not slapping new jobs onto old weapons. Feel free to invent a relic weapon you'd want if you don't like the one I invented.Quote:
Adjust Claustrum to not suck and slap Scholar on it, far better solution.
I thought it was a pretty good "comeback", myself.
They should not just slap new jobs on weapons. A more elegant solution should be sought after. These jobs should have to earn their relics, not suddenly be able to use ones originally built for other jobs before their existence without any effort. -
11-06-2011, 12:00 PMSotek
I've already posted a suggestion for a Scholar Relic (and Puppetmaster, but no stats on that since I know nothing of the job) based on Gjallarhorn. Though I'm fully aware it will never happen, but it's a more elegant solution than "To hell with the preexisting pattern lets just add new weapons".
Bard and Red Mage have nothing related to Critical Hit rates, Thief and Dancer (a trait and Feather Step off the top of my head) do - Dancer has more right to be on Mandau than two thirds of the job on it.
Corsair has every right (if not more) to be on Annihilator. Same for Blue Mage and Excalibur.
Puppetmaster is the only questionable one since Spharai has such high base damage, I offered an alternative to that which fits the current patter (A Relic Animator/Frame; as I said I know nothing of the job).
Scholar won't get anything useful either way, it will be unfair to Summoner at the very least - though the option I've suggested does fit the current patter, it would be more fair to slap Scholar on a preexisting one since mages were royally screwed with Relics.
There really is little reason for the development team to waste time on new relics; they'd have to place new Attestation NMs, new Animated Weapons, new base Relic weapons, work out the cost - both coins and the weapon/materials used for the first two stages. Four out of five of the jobs would be perfectly suited to being on existing weapons; it's a better solution.
You've lost me. Blue Mage being slapped on Excalibur means Blue Mages don't have to work for the weapon? Seriously?Quote:
These jobs should have to earn their relics, not suddenly be able to use ones originally built for other jobs before their existence without any effort.
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11-06-2011, 12:46 PMInsaniac
@ Winrie
Emps are just as generic as relics. None of them are any more geared for the jobs that use them than their relic counterparts.
Mandau triple damage favors a DNC far more than the ODD from Twashtar because a DNC doesn't spam RS unless they want to gimp their damage. In abyssea they spam Evisceration and outside they spam DE. They get to use RS once every 90 seconds when climactic flourish is up. That's 30% ODD 33% of the time at optimal performance which is not gonna happen vs. 12% Triple damage 100% of the time. MATHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Do some VW and you will meet some WF (fire and/or magic) resistant mobs as well as some mobs that you NEVER want to pull hate on. With the proper atmacites and rolls a COR in VW can WS every 5 seconds. If I had Annihilator on COR that would probably be the only weapon I used in VW unless the mob was resistant to physical damage. The reduced enmity from WF doesn't even compare to the low static enmity and enmity down aftermath on Coronach. As for ODD I don't even shoot on COR anymore so it doesn't matter and if it did matter Anni has 12% Triple damage.
lolPUP is not an argument. PUP doesn't need VS because stringing pummel is a solid crit WS making Spharai an option. Spharai would actually probably be better for PUP than it is for MNK.
I didn't even try to argue for Excal because in this case you are right. Almace is almost always better.
Claustrum sucks and is pointless to talk about but so does Helmvegr or w/e it's called (Que melee SMNs.)
As for cost. I don't know how much HMPs are going for on your server but they are holding strong at 150-170 on lakshmi from what I have seen. Using the low end of the spectrum that's 225mil. Using the average price of currency Mandau and Spharai both cost 128mil. Even if plates stabilize at 100k that's still 22mil less and 22mil is 22mil. Even the most expensive relic will be less than a level 95 emp until HMPs drop below 100k which might never happen.
Basically take almost everything you said and the exact opposite is true.
EDIT: Just noticed something you said to someone else. Relic damage has to proc to work? WTF does that even mean? So does ODD even if it is a higher %. On top of that you need your aftermath up. Anything that says "Occasionally" has to proc to work. I wish I would have read this before I took the time to respond to you. -
11-06-2011, 01:41 PMAlhanelemNo. Blue mage being slapped on Excalibur means people who already got Excalibur long before Blue Mage came out get suddenly have the super weapon for that job the moment the job is released. That wouldn't be fair to the people who didn't know ahead of time that BLU was going to get the sword relic and that they could start working on the job's super weapon before the job even comes out.Quote:
You've lost me. Blue Mage being slapped on Excalibur means Blue Mages don't have to work for the weapon? Seriously?
For the most part, nobody had the best gear for the jobs right after they came out and leveled them up. The best gear for the new jobs came mainly from events added after their inception, or from gear added to other events after their inception. So basically, I feel people who would have already had the matching relic for that job before it came out would have an unfair advantage.
(Disclaimer: Blue Mage used as example. Insert any new job in its place if you want.) -
11-06-2011, 01:54 PMSotekGreat choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Your argument has become "People who decided to level expansion jobs should have to spend another 150m for a Relic weapon that may as well be the same as the one they currently own".
Oh and for the most part people leveling new jobs would have the majority of the gear set for them, unless they went from leveling Monk to Scholar. Which is a completely ignorable scenario since no one is suggesting Scholar be put on Spharai. -
11-06-2011, 01:59 PMAlhanelem
Basically, but not with the spin you put on it.
Yes, people who level the new jobs should have to get a new relic for them. It would be unfair to other players for them to start out having the super weapon for that job before anyone has even leveled that job or knew what kind of weapons it used.
Some relic weapons have more than one job, but all of them have fewer jobs on them than typical weapons do. It's pretty clear they didn't want every job that can swing a sword to use Excalibur, for instance.
You write your post as if to say that players are obligated to get a relic weapon for their jobs. They're not. But when a new job comes out, people shouldn't automatically have the best gear for them because they just happened to make the right relic beforehand.
It doesn't matter what job you went from to. PUPs who played MNK didn't automatically have the best PUP gear, mages who went to BLU definitely didn't automatically have the best gear for BLU, and yada yada yada for COR.Quote:
Oh and for the most part people leveling new jobs would have the majority of the gear set for them, unless they went from leveling Monk to Scholar. Which is a completely ignorable scenario since no one is suggesting Scholar be put on Spharai.
By these jobs not being on the relic weapons, people had to work for the best weapon for the job, just like the rest of the gear. -
11-06-2011, 02:02 PMSotekBy the looks of how they made Relic weapons it's pretty obvious they didn't want any weapon type repeats, too. Your argument is invalid.Quote:
It's pretty clear they didn't want every job that can swing a sword to use Excalibur, for instance.
Mages who went to Blue Mage? Didn't read my post again I see. The only jobs that would matter going to Blue Mage would be ones on the Relic in question. Red Mage would offer plenty of the mage related gear Blue needs, Paladin would have plenty of the damage dealer gear (Homam is an example the comes to mind).Quote:
It doesn't matter what job you went from to. PUPs who played MNK didn't automatically have the best PUP gear, mages who went to BLU definitely didn't automatically have the best gear for BLU, and yada yada yada for COR.
Any White Mage or Black Mage (at Level 75) was set for Scholar.
Any Monk would have had a decent shoot at Puppetmaster; though I'll admit less since SE decided Puppetmaster was a mage.
Any Ranger would have had plenty of the general gear for Corsair.