Why Cant Final fantasy 11 get the same treatment?

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects.

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A failed title in a spin off genre wouldn't hurt the over all brand, look at Tiberium 3rd person shooter that got canned, and hasn't heavily damaged the C&C line of RTS games. A failed title in a genre you're looking to establish your company's future (and thus financial investments) in as more than a 1 trick pony is a killer. If FFXI dies tomorrow it dies a success, FFXIV can't say that, and if FFXIV dies a failure you can bet SE's future in the MMORPG genre is done. If SE's future in MMORPGs is done then the potential for huge profits is also gone.

Console games make profits but not to the potential of a successful MMO does.

Super Mario Bros is supposedly the highest selling console game of all time with 40 million copies sold. Lets attach the current $60 price to that number (yes I know this game didn't/doesn't sell for that much). So at the best of the best possible for a console game you've made 2.4 billion dollars over 26 years.

Now lets look at the best of the best profit wise MMO WoW. Last subscription base I've heard thrown around was 8 million users so I'll use that. At $15 a month that's 120 million a month or 1.4 billion a year, so in 2 years WoW makes 480 million more than the best selling console game could have made in 26 years.

Hopefully you can see why an investor sees the cost of fixing FFXIV as worth it and why they haven't just written it off.

That of course completely ignores the problem of market saturation and the problems inherent with trying to put your own products in direct competition with each other.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

That of course completely ignores the problem of market saturation and the problems inherent with trying to put your own products in direct competition with each other.

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Oh lets look at lower end numbers:

Say a console game sells 250k copies at $40. So that's 10 million dollars.

Say a MMO sells 100k copies at $0 and has a subscription fee of $10. So that's 1 million a month or 12 million in a year...

Again still a better investment looking at lower end numbers.

I feel we're talking past each other.

MMOs can make much better returns than console games. We agree on this.

An MMO makes more money because it is a perpetual product, but one with a finite field of customers. What happens when you try to maintain two products in direct competition with each other? When targeting the same demographic for each product, the results will likely be a nearly identical stream of revenue now split between the two products. Same money, different piles, but now with the added risks that come with a decrease in an MMO's population and the huge price tag of developing the second product.

Please, feel free to enlighten me as to how my assessment is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I feel we're talking past each other.

MMOs can make much better returns than console games. We agree on this.

An MMO makes more money because it is a perpetual product, but one with a finite field of customers. What happens when you try to maintain two products in direct competition with each other? When targeting the same demographic for each product, the results will likely be a nearly identical stream of revenue now split between the two products. Same money, different piles, but now with the added risks that come with a decrease in an MMO's population and the huge price tag of developing the second product.

Please, feel free to enlighten me as to how my assessment is incorrect.

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I see the problem now, you're assuming SE is attempting to maintain FFXI and FFXIV for the years to come, I see it as a few others have, FFXI is being strung along until FFXIV is ready and FFXI will be kept alive but not updated to the same degree in hopes those players shift from FFXI to FFXIV and FFXI can get shut down. I know they said they wanted to have 2 MMOs at a time years ago but looking at what they have or haven't done since then says that idea went out the window.

Though that isn't to say it isn't possible, I mean in the past a company has held 2 titles in the same genre successfully, look at Starcraft and Warcraft. EA's racing line ups. Activisions action adventures. A company cares not if a player is splitting their time between two of their games and the same concept is carried over to MMOs assuming they are in different game worlds.

Edit: It isn't the best example but all 3 times I started/reactivated my WoW account I kept FFXI active because while in the same genre they are 2 different games. The same is true about FFXI and FFXIV.

And I'm saying that's an absolutely terrible business plan that completely disregards the principle of ROI because the costs to maintain FFXI properly would be a fraction of what it cost to build and rebuild FFXIV and the profits from extending FFXI's lifespan would be better as well seeing as how it's already established and successful.

MMOs are a completely different beast from other games. They are very nearly exclusive by their very nature. Maintaining two of them does not equate to doubling your revenue. What it does equate to is significantly increasing your maintenance costs and eroding the strength of both titles as they compete against each other for player population.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

And I'm saying that's an absolutely terrible business plan that completely disregards the principle of ROI because the costs to maintain FFXI properly would be a fraction of what it cost to build and rebuild FFXIV and the profits from extending FFXI's lifespan would be better as well seeing as how it's already established and successful.

MMOs are a completely different beast from other games. They are very nearly exclusive by their very nature. Maintaining two of them does not equate to doubling your revenue. What it does equate to is significantly increasing your maintenance costs and eroding the strength of both titles as they compete against each other for player population.

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I don't disagree its a terrible business plan. But then again I feel that MMOs on a console are terrible business plans because by designing a MMO for a console you're giving it a limited life span. Because FFXI was designed for PS2 vs. designed for PC then ported to PS2 (at the time that decision was likely made was the same time SE believed FFXI would survive for 2 years at most) it becomes a bad investment option as the years go on.

Look at how many players are crying for real story content updates, expansions, major upgrades, etc. When looking at the demands of the player base with the "limitless" tech of a computer they are easily met. Making it a great investment to keep putting money into because the profits almost always will overcome the initial costs. When looking at the demands with the limited tech restraints of the PS2 and how FFXI's core was made (i.e. direct x wrapper instead of a PC client) these demands have a much lower chance of the profits overcoming the initial costs.

Edit: I just noticed you seem to be assuming FFXI's proper maintenance for the years to come isn't expensive when it is. "PS2 limitations" wouldn't be a concern if the game was properly coded to be a MMO that could last 20 years.

anyway, SE can't read minds and can't pilot the people's feelings: I'll never play 14 even if they'll do the 3.0 version of it, and I have a lot of friends who are thinking like me, if they shut down 11 I'll say goodbye to MMO, I don't restart from zero another MMO (fail like 14 too).

if 11 is still loved and played, a serious company HAVE TO continue supporting the game their customers want to play.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Edit: I just noticed you seem to be assuming FFXI's proper maintenance for the years to come isn't expensive when it is. "PS2 limitations" wouldn't be a concern if the game was properly coded to be a MMO that could last 20 years.

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Nah, I know it's gonna be expensive. Moreso if they ever do a proper PC rebuild of the core engine. All I'm assuming is that the costs to maintain the game are distinctly lower than the cost of building an entirely new MMO twice over(which is basically what's happened with FFXIV).

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?