On Red Mage melee...

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

A better argument would be NMs with nasty status effects (Seps for example.) Those would be the kinds we'd avoid, and probably still have to avoid if we were to get an update.

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Funny How that happens

I don't think Subbing NIN was because of Shadows completely, its also the Dual Wield III that will massively boost your DPS when Dual Wielding :D

Just saying, If you can't figure that out you're the reason RDM melee gets a horrible name (outside of other things).

If you're going to Melee on RDM at least try to do it as right as possible, /NIN is a good start. Well, its the only start. No other sub job is going to make up for nearly 25% (?) Delay Reduction. If you're going to try and argue /SCH or something for utility (-Na Spells), and not using /NIN, I think you found the reason Melee RDM Suffers so much in the eyes of the community.

In order to become more effective in Melee damage, you have to give up something on your mage side (/nin or /mage)

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

LOL REALLY?

RDM is one of the toughest jobs in the game. The only reason we aren't sitting pretty like a DNC, THF, and NIN is because we don't have decent evasion. We can't just put on some ok gear and make mobs miss 90% or their hits.

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RDM isnt difficult, it's a VERY busy job, but not difficult. Here you go attacking me without a good argument because i showed how your argument was faulty.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Lol im not sure if you are aware of this, but we have phallanx, ^_^;. Just because we can give it to others doesn't mean we can't cast in on ourselves.

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I'm very much aware we have phalanx, it is a very powerful spell, but it can only do so much...

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

When I melee I don't even bother with /NIN because Stoneskin is amazing on RDM. If you have all the gear required for it you can easily boost Stone Skin over the potency of Cure IV.

When I'm fighting actual NMs that will 1 Shot DDs. It is usually the DDs that get one shot and I'm usually the one standing. And the funny thing is, if the reason that the mob is 1 shotting someone is magic, then I'm still not going to die. Magic Defense Bonus + Barspells + Phallanx + Stoneskin + Blink. Sorry you couldn't see what was obviously there because it's not for you.

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So you're saying if you were meleeing you wouldnt cure yourself? Cause max SS rdm gets is 350+30+30+20+20=450 SS, and if the spell/TP move does more, your SS is broken also, MDT does jack if the TP move is physical, and barspells dont reduce dmg, they increase your chance to resist, and if you resist your dmg is reduced, also blink isnt that reliable.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I'm also sorry that RDM have to work for their gear to be good. But we do. If you've seen more RDM that were bad. They probably had crap gear. Horribly sorry we didnt get included on any of the easy to get gear sets that we could have been included on.

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See, by this you're assuming my rdm gear is poor, or that gear for rdm in general is hard to get, which it can be for some, but for the most part it isn't hard.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't think Subbing NIN was because of Shadows completely, its also the Dual Wield III that will massively boost your DPS when Dual Wielding :D

Just saying, If you can't figure that out you're the reason RDM melee gets a horrible name (outside of other things).

If you're going to Melee on RDM at least try to do it as right as possible, /NIN is a good start. Well, its the only start. No other sub job is going to make up for nearly 25% (?) Delay Reduction. If you're going to try and argue /SCH or something for utility (-Na Spells), and not using /NIN, I think you found the reason Melee RDM Suffers so much in the eyes of the community.

In order to become more effective in Melee damage, you have to give up something on your mage side (/nin or /mage)

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Beleive me, you don't need to tell me about Dual Wield.

Though I tend to balance /DNC with /NIN depending on situation/composition. If no Dancer available (or I know the dancer is going to be using Fan Dance) /DNC's Haste Samba for the party vastly outweighs additional dual weild for myself. It also comes with me being able to stack up Dia III with Box Step, JA's for Dynamis procs, etc. So there's some situational value in that subjob if you're taking the front lines on RDM.

But for straight damage/defense, RDM isn't going to get better than /nin.

But it's well known among those who front line RDM consistently that a choice is made out the mog house in what role you're playing. Front Line RDM just doesn't play the same way.

As far as avoiding Seps, it depends on the situation. All that's needed is one outside healer, and a RDM going /dnc can be the one to wake his party without the healer wasting a curega.

Aurara, your argument is jumping all over the place, and half of it isn't even valid. Settle down and read for a while before you reply.

1. RDM in front lines, likely /nin. Utsu > Blink.

2. RDM has PDT gear, period. You can fit it in if you know where to swap.

3. Resist chances when under the appropriate Barspells skyrocket, Shell is flat damage reduction, we have native Magical Defense Bonus, Addle helps resists for everyone including ourselves.

4. 350 Damage absorbed is 350 Damage prevented. It most defiantly can mean the difference between survival and death regardless of gear. Typically, you're not going to have to worry about massive re-uses of the same TP move unless you're talking NMs, which is an entirely different catagory of argument.


More and more, people who abundantly come here to argue against RDM melee show up with the wrong presumptions. As I've said before, it's gotten to the point where it's almost not worth addressing, because we wind up repeating ourselves.

@Aurara

Tough = having good defense, not being difficult to play.

With a decent PDT set we are almost impossible to 1 shot. The only thing that is harder to 1 Shot is a PLD. And im not saying we are supposed to tank. I'm just saying that any kind of TP move we are supposed to be worried about is AOE. Put up Stone skin, watch other members of your alliance drop like flies.

The amount of effort a RDM has to put in to acquire good gear past 75, WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IN THIS THREAD, is several times hard than most jobs. We get teal. Teal is great for a caster. It is garbage for a melee. AF3 is garbage to melee in as well. Almost nothing in our AF3 addresses our melee.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

not being difficult to play.

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No job is difficult to play.

Except you are not a melee DD, you will NEVER toutch a melee DD's dmg. Here, let me put together a haste set for you:
Almace/Sent shield/aureole
Zelus/PCC/Brutal/Suppa
Goliard/Dusk Gloves/Rajas/Acc
Cuch/Goading belt/3% haste/7 acc ASA legs/Dusk
RDM/WAR, spamming CDC

This will not out dmg a:
Ukon war, kannagi nin vereth mnk almace pld, twashtar thf or dng gandiva rng, armageddon corsair, or most other emp DDs.

You WILL NOT contribute dmg, in fact you will be detrimental to the party, as you are neglecting your RDM duties to melee, and feed a mob stupid amounts of TP that are just not needed.

If you are only here to tell people they're wrong then you could just not bother posting.

RDM'S KNOW THEY ARE NOT DD's THIS IS THE POINT OF THE THREAD - THEY ARE NOT SAYING THEY CAN, THEY ARE ASKING TO BE ABLE TO DD IN SOME FORM TO DO PART OF WHAT WAS ADVERTISED OF RDM AND IS STILL ADVERTISED OF RDM EVEN TO THIS DAY.

Get it?
Got it?
I severely doubt it.

Thank you and good day!

You don't get it do you? I'm not saying "OMG MELEE RDM IS TERRIBLE NEVER DO IT" I'm saying do it when things don't matter, like messing with friends in an xp alliance, or farming lights/time. It's useless on big NMs when you're doing nothing more than feeding extra TP that the pt doesnt need to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

No job is difficult to play.

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Agreed, I'm saying that RDM die less easily to 1 shots than other jobs.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Agreed, I'm saying that RDM die less easily to 1 shots than other jobs.

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I know this, I have solo'd/tanked multiple things on rdm, and have friends who have tanked the same if not more stuff than myself. What you don't get is, the buffs you guys are asking for are absolutely ridiculous, and overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You don't get it do you? I'm not saying "OMG MELEE RDM IS TERRIBLE NEVER DO IT" I'm saying do it when things don't matter, like messing with friends in an xp alliance, or farming lights/time. It's useless on big NMs when you're doing nothing more than feeding extra TP that the pt doesnt need to deal with.

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No one in this thread, or at least myself personally wouldn't melee on NM's where little TP feeding is advised in the same way a THF doesn't outside of Abyssea after getting capped TH, nor on something where I'd focus entirely on a different job, IE Enhancing, Debuffing or so on.

That said, people have a right to be able to ask for what was advertised when they leveled the job in the beginning, in the same way if something was advertised on a box and didn't come included you'd want a refund or otherwise.

Some things that are asked for are crazily over-powered so of course SE wouldn't add them, but they can still add something, if nothing else that gives RDM it's unique back again because as it stands we have nothing.

Heal/Enhance - I'll play as WHM
Nuke - BLM or SCH
Sword DD - BLU or PLD
Other DD - any off the other countless DD's

Even enfeebling RDM does not do best, now I get they're a "jack of all trades, master of none" but they shouldn't be 100% worse than every other job including being beaten in melee DMG by a WHM who are not meant to melee.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You don't get it do you? I'm not saying "OMG MELEE RDM IS TERRIBLE NEVER DO IT" I'm saying do it when things don't matter, like messing with friends in an xp alliance, or farming lights/time. It's useless on big NMs when you're doing nothing more than feeding extra TP that the pt doesnt need to deal with.

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IT MATTERS TO US THAT WE CAN MELEE WHEN IT MATTERS. YOU HAVE JUST INSULTED THE ENTIRE ROOM.

STFU AND GTFO OF THE THREAD THAT IS ABOUT MAKING RDM MELEE VIABLE. WE DON'T WANT YOUR OPINION THAT RDM, CURRENTLY, IS BAD AT MELEE. WE KNOW. THANKS FOR NOT READING THE PREMISE OF THE THREAD AND WASTING PEOPLE'S TIME.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

IT MATTERS TO US THAT WE CAN MELEE WHEN IT MATTERS. YOU HAVE JUST INSULTED THE ENTIRE ROOM.

STFU AND GTFO OF THE THREAD THAT IS ABOUT MAKING RDM MELEE VIABLE. WE DON'T WANT YOUR OPINION THAT RDM, CURRENTLY, IS BAD AT MELEE. WE KNOW. THANKS FOR NOT READING THE PREMISE OF THE THREAD AND WASTING PEOPLE'S TIME.

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Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I know this, I have solo'd/tanked multiple things on rdm, and have friends who have tanked the same if not more stuff than myself. What you don't get is, the buffs you guys are asking for are absolutely ridiculous, and overpowered.

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By comparison to RDM almost every job in the game is OP and Ridiculous, especially at end game and especially with their AF3+2.

We are brainstorming how to get our job, the one that was fine to melee from lvls 1-50, back to doing what we like doing. Which is melee/heal/nuke. I didn't say play a piss poor BLM/WHM that can't melee properly, because that is what we currently are.

The only thing that I am needed for is Phallanx 2 for FCs. Kinda like I was only good for Refresh a couple years back. When this game came out RDM was legit, it was fun, and I loved the shit out of it. Why make RDM great at the beginning and then pull the rug out from under us as soon as we get to the end game?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

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And I'm saying you are an idiot that doesn't read even the premise of the thread before posting. The point of this thread is to improve melee on RDM so that it is desirable in a party setting that matters. Since you clearly don't understand that I'm just going to assume you are yet another troll/idiot that wandered in here.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

By comparison to RDM almost every job in the game is OP and Ridiculous, especially at end game and especially with their AF3+2.

We are brainstorming how to get our job, the one that was fine to melee from lvls 1-50, back to doing what we like doing. Which is melee/heal/nuke. I didn't say play a piss poor BLM/WHM that can't melee properly, because that is what we currently are.

The only thing that I am needed for is Phallanx 2 for FCs. Kinda like I was only good for Refresh a couple years back. When this game came out RDM was legit, it was fun, and I loved the shit out of it. Why make RDM great at the beginning and then pull the rug out from under us as soon as we get to the end game?

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SE got scared, RDM was getting too powerful at soloing which is kind of the opposite of a MMO, that said they can stop with the gimping, and even worse taking us off equipment that jobs like BLU can wear which at one time RDM could also.

That said, shouldn't be so rude to people even if they're only here to troll (Aurara not saying you are, just in general) SE will just ignore the thread even more, or close it.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

By comparison to RDM almost every job in the game is OP and Ridiculous, especially at end game and especially with their AF3+2.

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OK, not part of argument, but ill give you that.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

We are brainstorming how to get our job, the one that was fine to melee from lvls 1-50, back to doing what we like doing. Which is melee/heal/nuke. I didn't say play a piss poor BLM/WHM that can't melee properly, because that is what we currently are.

The only thing that I am needed for is Phallanx 2 for FCs. Kinda like I was only good for Refresh a couple years back. When this game came out RDM was legit, it was fun, and I loved the shit out of it. Why make RDM great at the beginning and then pull the rug out from under us as soon as we get to the end game?

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But see, you didn't get my argument that i have stated countless times, that 99.99% of people who do rdm melee the way you want, will be really really bad, which you don't seem to get.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

And I'm saying you are an idiot that doesn't read even the premise of the thread before posting. The point of this thread is to improve melee on RDM so that it is desirable in a party setting that matters. Since you clearly don't understand that I'm just going to assume you are yet another troll/idiot that wandered in here.

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You don't get it, I'm not here to make fun of you, or call you names(like you are calling me), if I was here to troll I dont think i'd be trying to understand your point of view, but how am I supposed to take you seriously if all you do is call me a troll/idiot when our ideas conflict? You want it to be desirable in a party setting, I get it, but what you dont get is that in order for that to happen, they would need to give RDM ridiculous buffs.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

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it's like talking to a brick... we aren't discussing rdm melee NOW. we're discussing what rdm melee SHOULD BE. the only people that ever talk about rdm melee NOW is people like you, who pop in to derail the thread, and ppl that get tricked into taking that bait.

unless the next thing you type is some melee related change to the job or the game, don't type it. you're just missing the point and pissing people off. if you continue to type things that have nothing to do with the intent of the thread, we can all just safely assume you're trolling us.

it's not efficient, the tone of every one of your posts has been "don't bother" or "it'd be op" really? it goes from useless, or less than useless, harmful as you've put it.. to overpowered? there is no middle ground? my 15$ a month doesn't pay someones salary whose job it is, is to figure that shit out?

we should just give up and all quit rdm? cuz i've been thinking about it for quite a while.... and i know many others who have. problem for me is, no job plays like what i was sold when i first bought ffxi. so i might just have to quit ffxi.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

it's like talking to a brick... we aren't discussing rdm melee NOW. we're discussing what rdm melee SHOULD BE. the only people that ever talk about rdm melee NOW is people like you, who pop in to derail the thread, and ppl that get tricked into taking that bait.

unless the next thing you type is some melee related change to the job or the game, don't type it. you're just missing the point and pissing people off. if you continue to type things that have nothing to do with the intent of the thread, we can all just safely assume you're trolling us.

it's not efficient, the tone of every one of your posts has been "don't bother" or "it'd be op" really? it goes from useless, or less than useless, harmful as you've put it.. to overpowered? there is no middle ground? my 15$ a month doesn't pay someones salary whose job it is, is to figure that shit out?

we should just give up and all quit rdm? cuz i've been thinking about it for quite a while.... and i know many others who have. problem for me is, no job plays like what i was sold when i first bought ffxi. so i might just have to quit ffxi.

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Are you serious? I told you why RDM melee couldn't work, because they would have to buff RDM enspells/do things to them that would be seriously broken. YOU guys are the ones who are coming out at me swinging telling me I'm an idiot/troll, and i said this earlier...how is ANYONE supposed to take you guy seriously if all you do is kick and scream TROLL TROLL TROLL when somebody comes in and points out flaws, instead of butting heads maybe you should work together to find an ultimatum. Nobody is stopping you from meleeing, but be warned, do it right or you're doing the entire community a disservice.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

By comparison to RDM almost every job in the game is OP and Ridiculous, especially at end game and especially with their AF3+2.

We are brainstorming how to get our job, the one that was fine to melee from lvls 1-50, back to doing what we like doing. Which is melee/heal/nuke. I didn't say play a piss poor BLM/WHM that can't melee properly, because that is what we currently are.

The only thing that I am needed for is Phallanx 2 for FCs. Kinda like I was only good for Refresh a couple years back. When this game came out RDM was legit, it was fun, and I loved the shit out of it. Why make RDM great at the beginning and then pull the rug out from under us as soon as we get to the end game?

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1-50 you are talking a very small difference in the skill levels of jobs, after 50 is when the more skilled jobs (A and above) really begin to pull away from the pack while those jobs with a lower skill level start to fall behind more and more. It makes sens that a job who only has a B for its best melee skill falls behind on tougher mobs.

I have used my RDM to melee a lot of things that have been tough and though it takes me a long time to kill them, I rarely am in fear of dying to anything, even if i get a decent number of adds. I'm sure I am far from having the perfect RDM DD set but for the gear I have (which was easy enough to get) but unless something is VT+, it's not even a challenge to kill.

Personally I don't see RDM melee being broken, I guess its just the fact that too many in the past have tried to DD in terrible gear/no food on mobs that were too high of a level to do a decent amount of damage on.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

FFXI Needs more BRD's not a lot of people level it and use it sadly. :(

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That's more the fault of class design. I'm not surprised that few want to play a class that basically runs back and forth and recasts songs, with random pulling to break the monotony. It's weak and archaic design.

CST (Cool Story, Taru) time: I used to be a guild leader in Lineage II a couple of years ago. During my two year run in that game, I noticed that Bladedancers (which are basically a bard archetype that can wield two swords and have their own array of attacks aside from their buffs) nearly outnumbered everyone else who played damage classes. They were everywhere, and most leveling parties always had one, two, or even three depending on what time of day it was.

The funny thing is that they weren't OP or anywhere near it (in fact, they were weaker than the "real" damage classes and were very squishy). They merely drew in a lot of people based on design, looks (yeah, I know the guys that don't mind wearing pink subligaria for the extra 2 STR don't care about aesthetics), and the fact that you weren't just spamming your buffs. Compared to our bard class, BD was a success as far as I'm concerned, as you almost always had one around when you needed one and they still could contribute while doing their own thing. Basically, how every buff-oriented class should be designed if the performance of other players has to hinge on whether they're in the party or not.

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Which really does narrow down our solutions to one: Have Red Mage deal negative TP gain to the monsters in question. At that point, a Red Mage can do Lulzy damage, and it would not matter. The fact that someone is both Tping free of additional risk, as well as lowering the risk for those around them, would widely broaden Red Mage's acceptability in the front lines.

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A nice idea, but alone it won't do much. It needs to be part of a larger set of changes. Also, lulzy damage would still be a real negative to having a RDM in the front, as the damage generated by other classes would have a good chance of outweighing the utility.

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Here you go again, attacking me because you have no bases for an argument, I even told you to melee if you really wanted to, but know it's not efficient.

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Uh, our basis is "we know it sucks" and you yammering about how things are now/were is telling us nothing we don't know. Furthermore, insisting that's how things should stay despite the possibility of improvements countering any and all negatives is what has us "losing civility" toward you. We get it, you're not interested, and are basically living up to my prior suspicion.

Christ, you wanna babble on about damage reduction sets, but at the same time shoot down an idea that could translate to an instant 10-15% damage reduction on TP moves for everyone who doesn't have a BRD+SMN in their party before that gear even comes into play. You go on citing Subtle Blow is useless because of /NIN, Auspice, and Rajas, even though SE could easily tweak caps and implement further TP management tools. Then cry about how a RDM isn't doing their duties if they're swinging, but when they're buffing in full Emp+2 with Cape, more or less doubling durations of Haste/Refresh, you're saying you're okay standing with their thumb up their butt in the back? Because there's nothing about hitting auto-attack that suddenly blocks out the HP pool of party members for doling out emergency cures or panning the camera for the occasional link to be slept, if that's even a threat in a given camp. And, well, you've otherwise been implying that a WHM and RDM should never be in the same party, which is a concept of role redundancy this thread has attempted to address on multiple occasions and I know for sure that I've rambled about it years prior on other sites. Instead, people would just rather drop the RDM, even if it was the only thing seeking. Can't say that bodes for being a meaningful generalist.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Christ, you wanna babble on about damage reduction sets, but at the same time shoot down an idea that could translate to an instant 10-15% damage reduction on TP moves for everyone who doesn't have a BRD+SMN in their party before that gear even comes into play. You go on citing Subtle Blow is useless because of /NIN, Auspice, and Rajas, even though SE could easily tweak caps and implement further TP management tools. Then cry about how a RDM isn't doing their duties if they're swinging, but when they're buffing in full Emp+2 with Cape, more or less doubling durations of Haste/Refresh, you're saying you're okay standing with their thumb up their butt in the back? Because there's nothing about hitting auto-attack that suddenly blocks out the HP pool of party members for doling out emergency cures or panning the camera for the occasional link to be slept, if that's even a threat in a given camp. And, well, you've otherwise been implying that a WHM and RDM should never be in the same party, which is a concept of role redundancy this thread has attempted to address on multiple occasions and I know for sure that I've rambled about it years prior on other sites. Instead, people would just rather drop the RDM, even if it was the only thing seeking. Can't say that bodes for being a meaningful generalist.

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What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

You don't get it, I'm not here to make fun of you, or call you names(like you are calling me), if I was here to troll I dont think i'd be trying to understand your point of view, but how am I supposed to take you seriously if all you do is call me a troll/idiot when our ideas conflict? You want it to be desirable in a party setting, I get it, but what you dont get is that in order for that to happen, they would need to give RDM ridiculous buffs.

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So what? Look at what is coming for the next job updates. They aren't exactly mild.

This entire thread is about RDM is pathetic at melee and we want it changed so that people can get at least decent without having to do what we did. Hunt a bunch of gear. We get it.

You seem to think that we believe that RDM melee is a good idea right now. None of us do. We do it because it is fun. But why can't we have fun and be effective? Everyone else seems to be able to.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

You seem to think that we believe that RDM melee is a good idea right now. None of us do. We do it because it is fun. But why can't we have fun and be effective? Everyone else seems to be able to.

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I have this mindset from what i have experienced, but please don't assume that im against you, it would be neat to make rdm more melee friendly, but you have to realize that the number of people who would only DD rdm are greater than those who could play it properly.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

What idea to reduce 10-15% dmg? RDM shouldn't be meleeing in the tank pt when they have multiple DDs to cure, come on really lol? Raise the subtle blow cap JUST for rdm? That's ridiculous. It's not crying when i have seen it hundreds of times, RDMs meleeing, not hasting, not curing, not refreshing anyone but themselves.

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Cycling is NOT and should not be part of a front-liner's responsibilities. Occasional utility and cures are fine. Cycles and everything that come with it, no.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Cycling is NOT and should not be part of a front-liner's responsibilities. Occasional utility and cures are fine. Cycles and everything that come with it, no.

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Back before abyssea when RDM was the most common healer, this was not acceptable. RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Back before abyssea when RDM was the most common healer, this was not acceptable. RDM is NOT a front-liner as you claim it to be, it is a MAGE, yes it can melee, but if you only "DD" RDM, you're playing it wrong and giving RDMs out there a terrible name.

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Red Mage is a Melee Mage, Front lining with backup utility was a real RDM, the FFXI RDM though however is completely different to the actual RDM job in the FF Series.

Oh snap, the mage card. BLUs go home, yo!

And you claim to not be 'against' anything. Sure.

Again, this is why I usually don't bother responding to you people at length. There is nothing short but total elitism in your tone, words, and excuses.

Your first mistake was making the implication that you, an individual, can speak for the majority of players as to the 'role of our job' Cycling buffs isn't it, I'll tell you that right now. That is a role that can be filled by anyone /whm right now and /rdm at 99. Whatever possesses you to believe that Red Mage will be able to hold onto that horribly pathetic excuse for a player role as the levels continue to incline. Bard, Corsair, and Scholar can all preform that duty better than we can currently EVEN WITH the buff duration extension.


Let me break this down easily for you Aurara:

1. Nobody here is happy about Red Mage's current performance in the front lines.

2. Nobody here expects Red Mage to preform the exact same duities in the front lines as in the back, however...

3. Everybody here expects Red Mage to function as a support job, regardless of the front or back line position.

It's not about the RDM just doing damage. It's about what we can do while we are in the front lines. We would like to be able to do MORE. Not in terms of damage, that's what other players seem to want to have us do. What we want, is a utility: Something to make us more useful by being in the front lines: To the point where it's ok for a RDM to be in the front, casting a situational amount of support spells while preforming other front line utilities.

We collectively, as Red Mages, want to get to the point where doing as described above can be done without argument.

You say it's impossible, we disagree and we have plenty of ideas on how it could work. Whether or not it's acceptable by the playerbase, isn't up to just you.

Nor isn't going away. This is called "The Eternal Debate" for a reason. Short of removing Sword and Dagger skill from Red Mage all together, you will never, ever, get us to stop pushing, to stop trying. It is a selling point of the job class and honestly, it is also our biggest challenge. And if Career RDMs love anything, it's a challenge.

It is in your best interest to stop thinking about 'can't' and start thinking about 'how'. Because you're never going to be without the RDM front-line supporters. SE has made sure of that as it keeps advertising RDM in the front lines. (The prize accomplishment items for RDM are swords and daggers, not staves, they keep showing RDM featured with swords/etc.)

Paired off by the fact that giving us a functional utility in the front lines would be the most assured way to give RDM some powerful identity back, there really isn't a reason why NOT to boost the performance.

Drop the previous Rdm argument first though, it isn't a RPG, it's a MMO, so it goes both ways. The battle system/casting sytem doesn't support being able to effectively do what you could in a single player as it does in the current MMO of FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Drop the previous Rdm argument first though, it isn't a RPG, it's a MMO, so it goes both ways. The battle system/casting sytem doesn't support being able to effectively do what you could in a single player as it does in the current MMO of FFXI.

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... you serious?

Melee capability isn't possible in an MMO now?

Fast Cast to 50% was originally added for RDM as they couldn't add doublecast but at least it sort of equaled the same (even if every mage now has it in some form), it's not too much to ask the melee be adjusted a little so it's actually capable, that or remove Swords and Daggers and just give us staff skill and call us SCH v. Inferior.

I didn't say it wasn't capable, I said it's not going to be as effective.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I didn't say it wasn't capable, I said it's not going to be as effective.

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They are paid to think, if the developers can't think how to do so, even if they did it via RDM's enspells then they shouldn't be a game developer.

Honestly though, do you think it acceptable for RDM to be inferior to WHM where melee damage is concerned despite it being the Melee mage and WHM not?

It does go both ways, however.

Every MMO version of FF job class is built off of the basis of what it was in previous iterations, down to blink tanking.

What the problem is Red Mage is the focal point of where these two genres (RPG, MMO) Clash, and it classes very hard.

It's not so much about bad class design. Yes, Red Mage needs improvements in the front line. But the main issue is role redundancy. "No Red Mage and White Mage together in a party." Is the elitist mentality that just does not let Red Mage's iconic role fit in. Which, if the game keeps itself mostly casual, is fine. But if we're going to switch the game tone back to "OMG WE NEED 18 PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING IMPORTANT" the job's going to die a very painful death. And it's already doing so.

Theres a support divide between front and back line roles. Back Line role you're basically functioning like a Scholar should, with more emphasis on cyling buffs and laying down enfeebles.

Front lines, it's more about filling gaps, and being a generalist. You're looking for opportunities to enhance damage, and laying on the enfeebles thickly, picking a partner to give the extra duration buffs to. But it really varies depending on the situation and the moment.(In Dynamis, for me, it's about procs, side tanking, etc) And it's more fun that way.

And honestly, a lot of the arguments about RDM front-lining is more of a question of where and when. Outside difficult NMs, it really does not matter if they do or they don't. People switch tones on their argument that 'X job plays that better' which is a moot argument if that job is not available or someone doesn't care to play it.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

And you claim to not be 'against' anything. Sure.

Again, this is why I usually don't bother responding to you people at length. There is nothing short but total elitism in your tone, words, and excuses.

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See, here you go again, assuming things about me..I'm TRYING to understand your point of view, instead of screaming at me maybe you should understand mine.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Your first mistake was making the implication that you, an individual, can speak for the majority of players as to the 'role of our job' Cycling buffs isn't it, I'll tell you that right now. That is a role that can be filled by anyone /whm right now and /rdm at 99. Whatever possesses you to believe that Red Mage will be able to hold onto that horribly pathetic excuse for a player role as the levels continue to incline. Bard, Corsair, and Scholar can all preform that duty better than we can currently EVEN WITH the buff duration extension.

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I never stated that I spoke for the majority, because I don't. I'm positive SE will give RDM some awesome spells/JA to make them wanted more 95+ i mean for Voidwatch they're already wanted more. BRD SCH COR WHM can't do it as well as you claim they will be able to, they don't get the same boost to length timer that rdm does, and they lack Refresh II, something that in itself is amazing. You are being pessimistic about RDM.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Let me break this down easily for you Aurara:

1. Nobody here is happy about Red Mage's current performance in the front lines.

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Why should they? It's terrible, on weaker mobs it isnt as noticeable, but as the mobs get higher lvl, it begins to show.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

2. Nobody here expects Red Mage to preform the exact same duities in the front lines as in the back, however...

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Tell this to the people who refuse to haste/refresh/cure/buff/debuff mobs cause they're too busy meleeing to care.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

3. Everybody here expects Red Mage to function as a support job, regardless of the front or back line position.

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This IS RDM's job, meleeing is not, I've already explained why I'm not doing it again.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It's not about the RDM just doing damage. It's about what we can do while we are in the front lines. We would like to be able to do MORE. Not in terms of damage, that's what other players seem to want to have us do. What we want, is a utility: Something to make us more useful by being in the front lines: To the point where it's ok for a RDM to be in the front, casting a situational amount of support spells while preforming other front line utilities.

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You ignore the fact that 99.99% of people wouldnt be able to perform the duties of a RDM and would only do "DD" RDM, wouldn't get invites because they sucked, and then would come here and cry for more broken buffs to melee rdm.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

We collectively, as Red Mages, want to get to the point where doing as described above can be done without argument.

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Not possible, in order to make rdm viable on frontlines would have to make it broken.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You say it's impossible, we disagree and we have plenty of ideas on how it could work. Whether or not it's acceptable by the playerbase, isn't up to just you.

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Your "ideas" are completely broken, and the same could be said to you about your ideas, it isnt up to you either.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Nor isn't going away. This is called "The Eternal Debate" for a reason. Short of removing Sword and Dagger skill from Red Mage all together, you will never, ever, get us to stop pushing, to stop trying. It is a selling point of the job class and honestly, it is also our biggest challenge. And if Career RDMs love anything, it's a challenge.

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So because I dont like melee rdm/disagree with it I'm not a "career" rdm? Please, I'm not asking you to stop asking I'm asking you to be logical about what you want, and to think about the longterm effects/how it would impact the balance of the game.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It is in your best interest to stop thinking about 'can't' and start thinking about 'how'. Because you're never going to be without the RDM front-line supporters. SE has made sure of that as it keeps advertising RDM in the front lines. (The prize accomplishment items for RDM are swords and daggers, not staves, they keep showing RDM featured with swords/etc.)

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Because swords are feature of RDM, and have always been. This is like saying "war's af1 weapon is an axe, WAR should ONLY use axes!" It doesn't hold water because WAR w/axes is terrible.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Paired off by the fact that giving us a functional utility in the front lines would be the most assured way to give RDM some powerful identity back, there really isn't a reason why NOT to boost the performance.

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This it assuming it will, and it's not safe to assume anything.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

They are paid to think, if the developers can't think how to do so, even if they did it via RDM's enspells then they shouldn't be a game developer.

Honestly though, do you think it acceptable for RDM to be inferior to WHM where melee damage is concerned despite it being the Melee mage and WHM not?

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I never noticed a RDM melee doing anything but nice Light DD damage while having it's mage abilities still at the ready if they're a good player.

WHM in 11 seems to have passed through D&D on it's way to get here and was designed to have a healthy melee side to it too