Newest interview (abyssea was a mistake?)

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Originally Posted by Xellith

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ILOGSalpha.jpg

This is the kinda thing that makes Shinryu dissapoint.

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Why can I only like this once?!

Edit:
Again, I must apologize for my wall of text. I actually tried to keep it short, but this was the best I could come up with. I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Ah the old ad hominem attacks when you can't defend your points, guaranteed to happen in every forum discussion or your money back.

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Did you only read that sentence of the post? Because right after that I went on to defend said points. I keep up an argumentative discussion and attack you personally at the same time. And ad hominem attacks aren't pointless. People point out other people's ad hominem attacks to assume immediate superiority in an argument, which, in itself is actually an ad hominem attack. However, our discussion is largely about a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Many of the things we claim none of us can actually confirm, like what the development team thinks. Theoretically you could be right. Theoretically they could be a secret subsect of the Illuminati trying to dominate a part of the world (the JMMORPG-playing part). I cannot absolutely deny that. But in matters of opinion, attacking someone's credibility and exposing flaws in their personality is exactly what shows the extent of their judgement. I'm saying you're a conspiracy nut, and I'm telling you why. Because every example you give, you use it to describe malicious intent by the developers. Not once did you assume otherwise, or even see why it's out of their realm of influence. That means you're trying to put them in one box that fits your mentality, which means you're more likely to read the same pattern into different situations. Which means, you're reasoning is flawed. Which means you can't be believed when you say this bullshit. Booyah.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

If quoting the truth makes me paranoid, I embrace it because what I state happens to be the truth.

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No, you state your interpretation of the truth. You don't just state what's wrong and that the development team didn't do anything about it (which is often false, as in the matter of Salvage and kings, for example, both of which got adjusted despite what you claim), but you go one step further and declare it to be malicious intent on their part:

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Stop making excuses for what was clearly a conscious decision by the devs to ignore botting and backstabbing.

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Yeah, clearly...

Anyway, most of your post I basically already replied to in my previous one (see Salvage, kings, Dynamis), you just seemed to have put your fingers in your ears and started singing. One more thing I'd like to reply to, though, which I didn't address before:

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

With years of watching kings, the devs came to a conscious decision to design Dark Ixion/Sandworm the way they did with tons of knowledge that this was a bad idea all around and still they proceeded. I call that deliberately choosing to create a system that was designed to encouraging botting, drama and grief.

You can feel free to retort though.

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Retort: They saw one of the most competitive "events" with a large player involvement with many sought-after items and though since it's so well camped, maybe people wanted more of it? Hint: Many people still do. Current king adjustments have been widely criticized and several threads about adding new world spawns were already created. It is something that many people actually want. Maybe not the casual majority, but that's why none of that was required. Dark Ixion didn't drop anything that couldn't be sold, same as the NMs from the Sandworm's Doomvoid areas.

I'm not saying it helped with the botting aspect, of course it didn't. World spawns will always be susceptible to botting. But people still want to do it, because some people like having to stand ready and wait for up to three hours for a NM to pop. As ridiculous as that may sound to you, who are you to deny them that?

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

And you're good at hurling insults rather than defending your points.

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As I mentioned before, I do both. I admit sometimes it's a character flaw of mine. It takes a lot to grind my shit, but some people just bring it out in me. Congratulations.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

You seem to continuously miss my point. SE had numerous opportunities to destroy the festering infection that was 3kings. Not create alternatives or sidegrade/downgrades - completely freakin' eradicate it. Yet what did they do?

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First of all, I already mentioned that kings and HNMs in general had flaws. I explicitely excluded it from the things about oldXI I was talking about several times (like, at the very beginning of my previous post). I'm not sure why you're still going on about those. Especially because you're wrong. Because, secondly, why should they eradicate it when clearly many people didn't want that? You want to impose your opinion of gameplay on others so badly that you're looking for a scapegoat when it doesn't happen, or when the development team doesn't share your opinion. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to influence quite a bit of your personality. You assume your opinion is better than other people's. It's why you extrapolate these ideas from certain aspects of the game and exaggerate them to a point that they have no connections to reality. Like when you said that "Abyssea was universally lauded", which is completely untrue. You see some people agreeing with you, and you make it a factual statement. This would also nicely explain your paranoia.

Let me take an example from today to prove my point:

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Sorry, but if someone says that one of the biggest game developers in the world deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase, you're just full of it. You're just a conspiracy nut and nothing else.

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Really? How about we take an example from today to prove my point.

DRKs have asked for Entropy to be boosted to make Scythe viable again in todays 2011 FFXI landscape. A fair point as Entropy is rather underwhelming and comes too close to Guillotine in damage. The DEV response?

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

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Oh look, MP adjustments no one asked for rather than addressing the core issues. Don't worry, it'll be tweaked somewhere in 2013.

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Perfect example. No one asked for MP adjustments, yet that is what we get. You used this as an example to retort my statement that the developers wouldn't deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase. How do you know that? How do you know they're not just stupid and don't get it? They saw people bitching about it, so they thought they'll adjust it, and the result was less than spectacular. They could have done this for any reason. They could have done it because they all play Impact casting DRKs. They could have done it, because none of them plays DRK and they assume MP plays a vital role to the job. They could have done this because they realize perfectly well that that's not what people asked for, but simply didn't want to give Scythe a great WS, but instead wanted people to use this situationally, when they're low on MP and actually need it.

I'm not saying either of these reasons makes much sense. But they all make a lot more sense than trying to read malicious intent into their actions. Yet, you choose the one that is most unlikely. How is that? Why would a company do that, deliberately try to alienate their playerbase? Do you think they get a kick out of it? I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

The problem is that this incompetence has been going on for years. How many years do you need before thoughtless incompetence becomes malice even if that isn't the intention?

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Never. Period. Malice is defined as intention. If there's no malicious intention, it isn't malice. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

It's pretty clear me that some people within the staff just don't care to deal with outsiders thoughts be that for some cultural or personal reasons or perhaps it's just pesky company policy.

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Clear to you, we've established that. It's a psychological trait of conspiracy nuts to read patterns and intentions into every occasions that are unconnected. Completely normal.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

It reflects poorly on the company.

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No argument there. It's why SE's most loyal players are their hardest critics.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Make no mistake, I don't think the devs are evil, bad or maligned individuals and given the chance to meet them I'd probably laugh, smile and take pics with the staff but that doesn't change the fact that the "you're gonna eat those peas and freakin' like it" mentality has been destructive to the game.

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Then you're a hypocrite. Painting them evil in absolutely every post, saying they don't care about players, they willingly push botting and RMT behaviour, yet you wanna be friends with them? Unless you admit being part of the botting/RMT group, that hardly makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

SE had me sold that they'd changed their ways when Abyssea happened but it seems like celebrations were premature and the game is slowly going back to the old ways. I think most people can agree that the simple DO NOT WANT meme sums it up handily.

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And after fifty fucking pages you still don't get it. The problem I have with you is that you (along with Runespider, and a few select "special" others) make it sound like SE read statistics showing that people universally like Abyssea (which is bullshit in itself, Abyssea has been criticized on all fronts, permanently and thoroughly ever since the forums were created) and then decided "No! We can't have happy customers! Let's make everything deliberately bad!"

I'm not trying to make you look stupid (right now). Seriously. This is actually the feeling I get when I'm reading your posts. You sound exactly like a guy standing on a cardboard box at a street corner shouting to the masses about how the government is keeping Roswell a secret, when in reality we've been trading with aliens for fifty years already and they brought us internet porn, and we could have had that thirty years sooner but the government wanted to see us suffer and make money off of us by selling their crappy magazines and VHS tapes. Can you see why it's hard for me to take you seriously?

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Originally Posted by Nynja

I can 3box Dragua easy, I've done it, first time was annoying, second time I got used to it, 3rd and 4th and 5th was "k...this is starting to just waste time now for no apparent reason".

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I guess some people just like playing with themselves and this is who SE is catering to. Final Fantasy XI is becoming more of an offline game that we're paying for. @Nynja I'm not saying your wrong playing the way you do, But whatever happened to /shouting or making/joining a linkshell why ya "Need" so many accounts?

Abyssea ruined the game, now they can't release better gear. They have to do shit like VW that drops items that look like upgrades but in reality are downgrades.

Thing I don't get is they complain how easy etc it is but until a year or so ago? they were making it easier with every update, +2 dropping off far more nms, more ??? for emp nms, cheap brews, continuing increased level caps with no changes to aby NMs.

The really sad part about this thread is that in the aby years there would of been an official response when it took off this way and possibly action (maybe even actually changing the drop system in VW and taking players words onboard for future content) under the new management system it will flat out ignored and they will carry on with the same mindset that made 14 a worldwide joke. VW will have some minor changes but they will never add a point system or anything that people really want purely because it's content akin to Kings (content that keeps people doing it for years due to crappy drop systems). I really don't think it will work that way this time though, it's already getting harder to fill alliances to do them.

VW is just like old kings, players begging for changes at every possible chance and Tanaka (at the vanafests) laughing off any and all suggestions and just adding more of em.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

All I got from this page was brutal is too hard for casuals.

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like seriously? its not like its hard to farm some ancient coins solo nowadays oO, besides one can find them in every bazaar

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Abyssea ruined the game, now they can't release better gear. They have to do shit like VW that drops items that look like upgrades but in reality are downgrades.

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i seriously fail to see how the bodys of VW are downgrades. Achieving 50% cure potency cap on sch is a pritty nice upgrade if you ask me. getting +12 enhancing skill on whm for boost-spells is one too. haveing -8 dmg taken on war body piece replaces every other body piece in your pdt/mdt sets

Pchan logic:

No one is going to ask Sch/Rdm to main heal, so the new cure pot body is useless. PDT body on war is useless since War either shouldn't be tanking so get a real tank, or you should get a daurdabla Brd to EA+Scherzo if you're so scared of dying.

lolabyssea lolbg etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Damane

like seriously? its not like its hard to farm some ancient coins solo nowadays oO, besides one can find them in every bazaar

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That was in response to Mishaa's posts, and it went on for abit from there.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Abyssea ruined the game, now they can't release better gear. They have to do shit like VW that drops items that look like upgrades but in reality are downgrades.

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Anyone with this mentality needs to find the nearest beach/golf course/playground and pound the sand there.

On what logic can you possibly base this argument beyond sheer sour grapes? What, in your minds, is so criminally wrong about someone being able to acquire +2 Empyrean armor without having to sell their firstborn? There's nothing stopping S-E from making better armor. The only thing now is whether the effort:reward ratio matches up to that of Abyssea and Voidwatch falls woefully short of that standard.

There are multiple reasons Abyssea became so popular, and the relative ease of acquiring Empyrean armor, as well as the overall stats of the full sets, is among these reasons. I sincerely believe that your beef, as well as other so-called elites', with this is that your over-inflated status as players was greatly diminished and your superiority complex took a major hit.

If you people like Abyssea so much, then stay there. No one is forcing you to move to other content. Are you aware of what the term 'optional' means?

Because it's impossible to finish pretty much everything you want from there. Or care to work on at least.

But Abyssea is so amazing! You can get your gear so quickly with minimal drama and XP so quickly! And it's the best gear for each job! Why would you ever want to do something else in the game?

The best gear for each job part is probably the problem.

The Development Bros have never been very good at balancing sidegrade/upgrade gear from multiple events. A body piece from 2003 is still the best in the game, wut.

As opposed to WoW where every time they raise the level cap everything before is obsolete? No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Aarahs

If you people like Abyssea so much, then stay there. No one is forcing you to move to other content. Are you aware of what the term 'optional' means?

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Just one question - So you glad and fun with VWNM or WoE so much now?

I always feel fail with ppl who catch on wrong spot on topics.
Topic is not about Abyssea itself but it's about how Producer feel about the way of FFXI form now. So you love to see gamble NM, which you need spend days-years to repeat keep doing it for just some item that it's not even goddy? becuse it's just you bad luck enough to not get it? because it all or none.

You really blind with hate that not feeling the dirction of FFXI now heading? And I say everytime i post that i'm not Abby defender, All content have good and bad spot, I just stand on the center and decide it form what happing in the overview of system not just form hate or love. What i want only can "FUN!" form playing game. not tortune form play it.

And again if you think about it "Quit it" Is not choice. It's just last thing you will do if you have no other else ways to do. I prefer to play this game well, why i play it for almost 8 years, I just hope it's can stay fun not just bring more tortune content for player in the bad time. And no any of developer really listen to what player ask. Just "It's not balance" "It's not possible", "It's beyond the limit", "It's will too easy", All word just cover one fact that Developer don't want to push more manpower to maintain this game and not even want to listen to player ask, so they just use most easy choice to develop conent, Put some new NM make it harder to get something then ppl will keep follow it like a dongky follow the carrot on fishrod. You just walk follow it not even can taste a bit of it. Until they satify on your work. Is that the content you want to see?

I really donno how long you play this game, how far you go, I play every content in this game. I must say I never found what content is bring me boring so fast like lastest VWNM and WoE. Even the bad abby that you name, I still fun with it for year. not just month.

So last word, If you like both of them so much I pardon you form my opp.

PS. I may want some gear form VWNM WoE But i nv find it's fun to play it., Even now I still feel fun to play sky with ppl even i not want anything form it.

I just don't like how brew cost was lowered to 200k, that ruined everything.

It's fine to be gods with atma, just make the monsters harder and more challenging to go along with the stronger buffs you get. Nothing was really hard, that's the mistake. Should have added more rani type difficulty stuff.

As for VW difficulty, you can easily kill the nms low man, your drops just suffer.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Did you only read that sentence of the post? Because right after that I went on to defend said points. I keep up an argumentative discussion and attack you personally at the same time. And ad hominem attacks aren't pointless. People point out other people's ad hominem attacks to assume immediate superiority in an argument, which, in itself is actually an ad hominem attack. However, our discussion is largely about a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Many of the things we claim none of us can actually confirm, like what the development team thinks. Theoretically you could be right. Theoretically they could be a secret subsect of the Illuminati trying to dominate a part of the world (the JMMORPG-playing part). I cannot absolutely deny that. But in matters of opinion, attacking someone's credibility and exposing flaws in their personality is exactly what shows the extent of their judgement. I'm saying you're a conspiracy nut, and I'm telling you why. Because every example you give, you use it to describe malicious intent by the developers. Not once did you assume otherwise, or even see why it's out of their realm of influence. That means you're trying to put them in one box that fits your mentality, which means you're more likely to read the same pattern into different situations. Which means, you're reasoning is flawed. Which means you can't be believed when you say this bullshit. Booyah.

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Someones accusing me of not reading when I clearly stated in my last post that the possibility is completely open to me that the devs are bound by cultural or personal limitations that lead to the sheer volume of incompetent/poorly thought out decisions?

Seems like you want to peg me as a fringe lunatic when the reality is that I don't really think the devs are cackling in their offices when they develop content but with the decisions made they might as well do it because it reflects upon the playerbase as yet again SE going against the desires of the customers rather than coming to a compromise.

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No, you state your interpretation of the truth. You don't just state what's wrong and that the development team didn't do anything about it (which is often false, as in the matter of Salvage and kings, for example, both of which got adjusted despite what you claim), but you go one step further and declare it to be malicious intent on their part:

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In my world how quick you respond to an issue is where you score the points. SE doesn't get applauded for 'fixing' Salvage years after the fact (the initial cell chest was NOT a fix, that had to be put in) or finally making Kings poppable after the gear had finally become irrelevant due to Abyssean loot. They had the heads up for years both events packed terrible drop rates and intense cheating yet it was allowed to stay.

On the Kings decision I'm sticking to my guns that pride is why that system lasted as long as it did. I recall when people on BG really thought if they gave the devs a roadmap to fixing kings that they'd implement it yet they laughed it off when the idea was finally floated to them. How many fanfest questions about kings does it take to figure out something is wrong? Tanaka's outburst during the initial stages of XIV also give us some insight into his method of developing content - namely that he backs his ideas to a fault. Gonna claim incompetence again? The devs aren't deaf, dumb or blind which is what it would have taken to ignore all of the warning signs and concerns put forth by players on BG (through Bercus and ElmerthePointy), by fanfest participants and forum goers on the 'community' platforms.

Incompetence can take you far, but not that far I'm afraid.

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Retort: They saw one of the most competitive "events" with a large player involvement with many sought-after items and though since it's so well camped, maybe people wanted more of it? Hint: Many people still do. Current king adjustments have been widely criticized and several threads about adding new world spawns were already created. It is something that many people actually want. Maybe not the casual majority, but that's why none of that was required. Dark Ixion didn't drop anything that couldn't be sold, same as the NMs from the Sandworm's Doomvoid areas.

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You realize that many of the pro-Kings individuals were the ones willing to do anything to get that claim right? People in situations similar to my own were willing to use every underhanded tactic in order to one-up the competition and well into the period that these mobs were relevant, the cheating had become so blatant and the griefing so obvious that these styles of events should have been nipped in the bud, not intensified after years of opposition. SE often ignores the wishes of the yet on the subject of Kings they miraculously bent a knee to the will of the base? Cmon.

When $1500 bots were being sold just to beat people to a virtual dragon in a virtual tree, someone at SE should have made the connection that the content they were designing was pro-cheating, pro-RMT, anti-fair play and completely flew in the face of the TOS. I mean seriously - you could freakin' spook Dark Ixion so easily that it was almost as if the monster was intentionally designed to create griefing episodes. Sandworm would often not pop, drop nothing (despite having a 6hour window) and had issues using Doomvoid (MMM related or not). These mobs were designed years after the first two batches of world spawns and no one caught that before release?

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I'm not saying it helped with the botting aspect, of course it didn't. World spawns will always be susceptible to botting. But people still want to do it, because some people like having to stand ready and wait for up to three hours for a NM to pop. As ridiculous as that may sound to you, who are you to deny them that?

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World spawns fly in the face of the terms of service, especially when they are given the prominence the previous batches were which also happens to be the only way the world spawns become successful. Saw anyone caring about Jormungand? Tzee Xicu the Manifest? Hydra? Vrtra? Why? Because the drops sucked.

So you've got a choice here. Develop an HNM with good loot and it becomes camped, botted and turns into Aery 3: The Revenge or you create an HNM with soso/bad loot and it will fail on release because no one cares to waste the time. Seems like the logical decision is to move on from world spawns and onto more balanced ways of presenting content. I get it, most of the base gets it so why shouldn't SE have gotten it? They have more available data and more importantly the means to make changes.

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First of all, I already mentioned that kings and HNMs in general had flaws. I explicitely excluded it from the things about oldXI I was talking about several times (like, at the very beginning of my previous post). I'm not sure why you're still going on about those. Especially because you're wrong. Because, secondly, why should they eradicate it when clearly many people didn't want that? You want to impose your opinion of gameplay on others so badly that you're looking for a scapegoat when it doesn't happen, or when the development team doesn't share your opinion. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to influence quite a bit of your personality. You assume your opinion is better than other people's. It's why you extrapolate these ideas from certain aspects of the game and exaggerate them to a point that they have no connections to reality. Like when you said that "Abyssea was universally lauded", which is completely untrue. You see some people agreeing with you, and you make it a factual statement. This would also nicely explain your paranoia.

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Lol. Kings should have been eradicated because it was... *drumroll* damaging the game as a whole. The people enjoying it aren't going to want it to end (they're profiting afterall) but SE should have be the one to realize that the whole game was suffering due to the method of designing everything as a sidegrade to kings gear which also happened to be the hotbed of cheating and RMT behavior. They basically allowed cheaters to be #1 while fair play was relegated to second or third sting gear that was often more difficult to obtain than sitting with the bots on in Aery.

Again I said "Point systems are universally lauded", not Abyssea and I'm willing to bet the Mog House on that.

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Perfect example. No one asked for MP adjustments, yet that is what we get. You used this as an example to retort my statement that the developers wouldn't deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase. How do you know that? How do you know they're not just stupid and don't get it? They saw people bitching about it, so they thought they'll adjust it, and the result was less than spectacular. They could have done this for any reason. They could have done it because they all play Impact casting DRKs. They could have done it, because none of them plays DRK and they assume MP plays a vital role to the job. They could have done this because they realize perfectly well that that's not what people asked for, but simply didn't want to give Scythe a great WS, but instead wanted people to use this situationally, when they're low on MP and actually need it.

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Again with the incompetence excuses? How SE perceives DRK is irrelevant to the situation presented to them from the playerbase (NA and JP alike). Entropy needed a boost because it comes too close to being Guillotine/Insurgency with regards to damage was the complaint. If you pried further, DRKs would also tell you that the MP replenishment effect is 'fine' but really makes no sense since casting on DRK is largely ceremonial rather than crucial to the class. Your comments on SE playing DRK in those unorthodox methods would only further my repeatedly made point that they don't play the game and development is done in a vacuum.

That's an embarrassing concession no?

It is my suspicion that if SE had boosted Entropy damage-wise (or made Entropy more potent from test launch) that the MP replenishment issue would have been praised rather than bashed but yet again, SE completely blew it with regards to public relations by releasing a subpar WS and then rubbing salt into the wound by making MP replenishment the sole reason why anyone would use it. Did I mention the INT modifier is just laughable given every other class gets modifiers on-par with the theme of the class?

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Then you're a hypocrite. Painting them evil in absolutely every post, saying they don't care about players, they willingly push botting and RMT behaviour, yet you wanna be friends with them? Unless you admit being part of the botting/RMT group, that hardly makes sense.

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How does it not make sense? The developers could be great people off the clock and so I see to draw a distinction between criticizing their often baffling job behavior from their personal lives. Unlike the likes of Starcade, I don't think they're inherently evil or desire personal harm to befall them and yes, given the chance I'd shake hands, take pics and chum it up with the devs.

It still wouldn't change my opinion of them as developers for FFXI. It's not hypocrisy, not even close.

Oh and since this is a thread on Voidwatch, I'll leave my opinion on how I believe Voidwatch should have been presented. Make no mistake, I don't expect this to ever come to fruition nor do I believe I have all the facts.

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Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

SE could have simply created a point system with some amazing reward (make it glow for added obsession) tied to having an assload of points and that would have successfully created a bottleneck sufficient enough for the devs to work on future version updates. If they wanted to make it even more attractive to people, Heavy Metal could also be purchasable with these points and thus turn what is pretty much an unpopular event into something everyone w/could benefit from.

Something like a point spread of:
Dominion point style Armor (w/augments) - Low
Scroll that returns you to Voidwatch NPCs - Low
Some useful Voidwatch KI - Low
Heavy Metal - Low
Dominion point style Weapon (w/augments) - Medium
Heavy Metal Pouch - Medium
Staff/Club/Earring that returns you to Voidwatch NPCs - Medium
Some Rare Gear piece - High
Glowy weapon 1 - Extremely High
Glowy armor 1 - Extremely High
The monsters HQ drop (like Pil's Toci's Harness or Voidwrought's Radiant Mail) - Extremely High
One piece of a ??? Badass set - Highest (<< here's where you squeeze out the grind)

Those ores and logs wouldn't be half as bad if you know beating a few Pil would get you that much closer to finishing the 1500 plates or getting to another goal. The low drop Toci's wouldn't even be so bad if you had a better carrot on that stick to keep you going. You could also spread the points based on region to promote doing different runs to accumulate points in different regions.

The issue of leaders seizing loot would also vanish with everyone receiving their own points.

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Originally Posted by Krashport

I guess some people just like playing with themselves and this is who SE is catering to. Final Fantasy XI is becoming more of an offline game that we're paying for. @Nynja I'm not saying your wrong playing the way you do, But whatever happened to /shouting or making/joining a linkshell why ya "Need" so many accounts?

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Because if you want something done right, you do it yourself. I've seen the people who resort to shouts for help...theres a reason they're still shouting for help and I've got my stuff done.

Though I have shouted for certain things...it wasnt help. Doing seals NM's and I only need 1...first I ask in LS if anyone is interested in any that I'm not lotting, then I shout to see if I can reduce the waste. But help...no lol.

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Originally Posted by Sharnak

Just one question - So you glad and fun with VWNM or WoE so much now?

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Yes, actually. I do like VWNM and WoE. It's much better than abyssea where 90% of the time I need to turn away from the mob so we can proc. However, I haven't done a ton of those fights yet due to two things; first, I'm a casual player and only have about 4 hours a day I can play. Second, I'm a completionist. I will go through everything until I get all of it I want. Just to give you an example, I'm currently working on dynamis. I'm 96/120 on all relic gear and plan to complete my collection. I also am still working on Nyzul and only about 8/20 on those weapons. When I finish that, I'll move on to captain rank. I could go on, but typing on a phone is a pain.

I will happily grind my way through WoE and VW until I get everything I want. I simply haven't gotten to it yet outside of my linkshell events. Easy gear is easy gear and, as this thread has proven wonderfully, once gear has become easy enough to obtain, you might get excluded if for some reason you don't have it. That's something happening in WoW. They call it gearscore.

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I will happily grind my way through WoE and VW until I get everything I want. I simply haven't gotten to it yet outside of my linkshell events. Easy gear is easy gear and, as this thread has proven wonderfully, once gear has become easy enough to obtain, you might get excluded if for some reason you don't have it. That's something happening in WoW. They call it gearscore.

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You need 18 people to do VW, what happens when you can't get 18 people..punishing drop rates on soso gear turn people off the event. Also I've done a mass amount of VW in the last few months and have almost nothing to show for it, gl trying to get any of it playing as a casual.

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It's much better than abyssea where 90% of the time I need to turn away from the mob so we can proc.

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VW is all about procs, on the higher tier stuff it's proc or die and if you don't have fanatics/fools up you gtfo before you get killed by stupid high aoe.

If you're turned 90% of the time waiting to proc on not visions mobs you or someone else in your party is doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

If you're turned 90% of the time waiting to proc on not visions mobs you or someone else in your party is doing something wrong.

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Why? Sometimes getting the WS clue takes a 7-8 WS. Then when only the WAR can do it, you have to wait for them to charge. And then sometimes you have a spammy mob that getting a clean WS off is a challenge. There's lots of times DD are spent "off" the mob waiting on proc or the proc clue to avoid an early non-proc'd death.
Or plenty of times getting that yellow proc takes time and no one wants the mob dead until then so DD are again turned around waiting for the "kirr" call.
Admittedly "90%" might be hyperbole by the author of the post, but its not totally without merit.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

Why? Sometimes getting the WS clue takes a 7-8 WS. Then when only the WAR can do it, you have to wait for them to charge. And then sometimes you have a spammy mob that getting a clean WS off is a challenge.

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What the hell is a spammy mob? The only time a mob will be "spammy" to the point of being unable to get a clean shot in is if theres 6 people wailing away on it or theres multiple people on it sub 25%. You know those mobs that people claim "have regain at low HP"...they dont. Theyre just tools who throw 6 poorly geared melee at it then get overwhelmed by TP moves.

Which begs the queston, why the hell do you have a group of 6 melee in abyssea ?!?

What I think Aarahs is talking about is the short life span the mob has after all the proc's are made. Normally they don't last 20 seconds after melee is told to "KILL IT!" Any one who's not on the Tank/proc/thf squad basically gets in 20 seconds of useful time. Before they have to wait on the side lines for the next pop. When it come to VW and WOE there's a lot less of that. Tho in VW you do have to watch yourself. You can go down quick if your not careful.

Why would you have anyone who's not on the tank/proc (same thing) / thf squad there in the first place?

Waste of resources. If you have spare people, go kill a second NM or have the extras farm pops or something.

You can only do that so much before you're overflooding the treasure pool with drops. It gets to the point where the leader has to tell people to stop popping/pulling. And I might have been overstating the 90%, but not by much. 20 seconds after all proc sounds about right for most NMs.

I think voidwatch is not as bad as a lot of people feel - it sure can use some improvement. Points system similar to nyzul, einherjar and assaults would be a great fix so that if you want the gears - you use points, and let the accessories armor drop as normal since these you can sell for good amount of gils. The developer is right for not allowing trading - otherwise most people will have the gears and stop doing voidwatch. Since you do not need to kill x amount of NMs for random seals, and more NMs for plus 2 items, voidwatch drop has to be rare. But point systems would easily fix this and make the armors obtainable via point systems. There are great things about abyssea and good things about old contents - the developer needs to be able to learn from the past 10 years and pick the best system and move FF11 forward for the next 5 years. Think of the paying costumers and the brand itself - and put aside egos, pride, and office politics.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Why would you have anyone who's not on the tank/proc (same thing) / thf squad there in the first place?

Waste of resources. If you have spare people, go kill a second NM or have the extras farm pops or something.

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Things could go wrong and you could use the support, you could be doing zone bosses, using up every ones pops at the end of the night. Need some ones random skills for some odds and ends. Could be a lot of reason's.

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Originally Posted by Nynja

What the hell is a spammy mob? The only time a mob will be "spammy" to the point of being unable to get a clean shot in is if theres 6 people wailing away on it or theres multiple people on it sub 25%. You know those mobs that people claim "have regain at low HP"...they dont. Theyre just tools who throw 6 poorly geared melee at it then get overwhelmed by TP moves.

Which begs the queston, why the hell do you have a group of 6 melee in abyssea ?!?

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Sedna spans like hell even with one person on it there's more mobs that do the same. Ironclads can also be problematic because of their tp moves and their regular attacks.

Sedna is a special case because he replaces his normal attacks with a TP move.

Ironclads aren't that hard to time (maybe if you're trying to keep it still and timing spells is problematic).

Honestly, I prefer magic on Ironclads to WS. You get a much better/more stable vantage point for procs as a mage.

Oh yeah, that is true, I hate it so much when I'm amnesia'd half the time... but whoever doesn't have hate usually has it alot easier.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Sedna spans like hell even with one person on it there's more mobs that do the same. Ironclads can also be problematic because of their tp moves and their regular attacks.

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[SIZE="6"]WHO FIGHTS SENDA MORE THAN ONCE ??!?[/SIZE]

inb4 emp staff...

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I think voidwatch is not as bad as a lot of people feel - it sure can use some improvement. Points system similar to nyzul, einherjar and assaults would be a great fix so that if you want the gears - you use points, and let the accessories armor drop as normal since these you can sell for good amount of gils. The developer is right for not allowing trading - otherwise most people will have the gears and stop doing voidwatch. Since you do not need to kill x amount of NMs for random seals, and more NMs for plus 2 items, voidwatch drop has to be rare. But point systems would easily fix this and make the armors obtainable via point systems. There are great things about abyssea and good things about old contents - the developer needs to be able to learn from the past 10 years and pick the best system and move FF11 forward for the next 5 years. Think of the paying costumers and the brand itself - and put aside egos, pride, and office politics.

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That is execly what i want to say.

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What the hell is a spammy mob?

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examples are the Fly NM for carabosse pop that will spam WS if it gets Aeroga off. There are mobs like CC that do back to back WS. And of course if people didn't turn around they would feed mobs TP creating a Spam situation. Then you get into the mobs that have regular TP attacks accounting for WS. Lots of reason for anyone but the tank and procer to be involved.

Has anyone seriously had trouble procing CC... I mean, seriously.

Seriously.

That stupid gigas NM for Briareus pop spams that Ranged Attack move every other attack, that is considered a TP move.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

examples are the Fly NM for carabosse pop that will spam WS if it gets Aeroga off. There are mobs like CC that do back to back WS. And of course if people didn't turn around they would feed mobs TP creating a Spam situation. Then you get into the mobs that have regular TP attacks accounting for WS. Lots of reason for anyone but the tank and procer to be involved.

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Premise: CC and La Theine Leige can be hard to proc

Conclusion: There are lots of reasons to have even more DDs than the tank/proc on the NM

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Premise: CC and La Theine Leige can be hard to proc

Conclusion: There are lots of reasons to have even more DDs than the tank/proc on the NM

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

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There are no reasons to have anyone but a tank and proc'er on NM which is the argument for why DD's are always spending 90% of the time with their back turned waiting for red proc to go kill for 20 sec.

Of course the following argument that there should only be a NIN/WAR/WHM on all NM's and everyone else is superfluous becomes apparent which means anyone without said jobs is SOL. So as a DD, either you spend 90% of your time with your back turned or you don't come as that job. This is still fundamentally an indictment of the Abyssea system for DD's (or any other non-tanking, non-healing, non-proc'ing job).

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Has anyone seriously had trouble procing CC... I mean, seriously.

Seriously.

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Sure when the yellow proc is AM, and CC decides Mayhem lantern is his go to TP move.