New poster here so don't fire at me right away just because of that. I love RDM. I have played almost no other class since i started leveling it 2 months after i started playing in '05. Lots of jobs need some love from the FFXI staff but rdm of course holds a special /vested interest for me.
I wish everyone would stop the RDM/BLU comparison. They are both hybrids but in different fashions. RDM is a full hybrid having access to all spells and combat abilities at all times. BLU is a situational hybrid that has to limit its spell list to fully maximize it's melee or mage capabilities and go for the best set of job traits.
Think of like it school. Blu can get some A grades but other areas have to fall behind to do so. Not all and not by much but still some areas do suffer. RDM is a solid B student doing all things well but not making the honor roll.
What I've noticed as a melee loving RDM is we are getting kinda left behind in P.E. unless we want to really pull out the stops and sacrifice everything for it.
My wife plays DRG/SAM and we like to duo a lot. I always try to joke and out DD her but we know it'll never happen nor do i think i should. I WOULD like to keep pace a little more with her though. When i have to have a pure melee set with no mage enhancing abilities and dual-weilding so i can hit 4-6 times in a round to still never have a mob look at me.... is a little disheartening.
Quick recap/ tl;dr - 1. Rdm is not BLU. Blu makes sacrifices to be better in some areas while weaker in others. RDM should be all things out of the box. 2. RDM just needs a little melee loving to make it what the job is meant to be.
P.S. to those "Go be BLU then" people... spell farming for hours on end? No thanks. I'll stick to buying them like i have for years and keep playing the only class i love.
The Problem with Red Mage . . .
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09-03-2012, 12:39 PMAethon
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09-03-2012, 09:10 PMsaevelAs someone with a fully blinged out BLU and RDM (melee and mage varieties) I'm able to compare then two because they both fill the exact same position. If you need pure damage you bring one of the specialist melees, if you need pure healing / support / crowd control then you bring one of those guys. RDM / BLU (melee varieties) are for when you need damage, support and crowd control. In this regard BLU stomps all over RDM, picks it up dusts it off then stomps all over it again. This is mostly due to SE showing BLU lots of love in both the damage and support departments while completely ignoring RDM.Quote:
Quick recap/ tl;dr - 1. Rdm is not BLU. Blu makes sacrifices to be better in some areas while weaker in others. RDM should be all things out of the box. 2. RDM just needs a little melee loving to make it what the job is meant to be.
P.S. to those "Go be BLU then" people... spell farming for hours on end? No thanks. I'll stick to buying them like i have for years and keep playing the only class i love.
Ex:
Melee BLU (has TA / DWIII natively thus can go /WAR for bergressor / DA / ABI) access to much better WS's and gear selection. Can self SC and use CA and / or Efflux to land 2~3K+ physical damage spells of whatever damage type is needed. Can self Haste / Refresh
Melee RDM (must go /NIN to contribute meaningful damage), limited access to WS's without Almace, limited and restrictive melee and WS gear options. Tons of self buff mitigate this penalty somewhat. Can nuke but bad time vs damage ratio.
Support BLU (while being /WAR) M.Fruit is a cheap cure IV, P.Embrace is a more expensive backup cure that buffs people's attack. White Wind is Curaga III~IV basically. WoP aoe Erase (BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPPORT SPELL). Stun spam if needed (HB / SL / TS / WoR). And if all that wasn't enough, BOTH light and dark based aoe CC (Sheep / Flower). Can aoe Haste once per 10m with a 5m haste (longer if merits / gear permits), useful before fights or during NNI.
Support RDM (while being /NIN) Cure III~IV for cures, Regen II for HoT. No status healing and only ST CC's (bind / grav / sleep I / II). 5% More -def then BLU (if they even bother with FR) which is easier to use. Can Haste / Refresh others.
Support RDM (while /SCH) Cure III~IV for cheap cures, Regen II for HoT. Can remove the major status healing but no cheap aoe erase. Haste / Refresh as usual. Slightly better nuking thanks to DA, but still poor when compared to melee.
Seems kinda lop sided huh? Any situation where I could in theory bring a "Melee" RDM I would be better off bringing my BLU, and any situation where I would bring a "Mage" RDM I would be better off bringing my WHM, BLM or SCH. This has left literally zero positions for a RDM to actually exist in FFXI, all they do now is go around making video's while soloing some monster without TH that could better be killed with a group of 3~6 with TH.
Now don't take this as a rant against BLU, I absolutely love my BLU. It's one of the few jobs SE actually got right and hasn't screwed up *yet* (knocks on wood). I believe SE should buff most if not all jobs to the level BLU is at, in usefulness if nothing else. BLU is a shining example of what a "hybrid" job should be, it can deal sufficient quantities of damage to warrant serious discussion (but not as much as the specialists). It can heal enough to warrant inclusion in low man group activities. It can apply enough crowd control to make it a vital asset in any group. And it does all these without stepping on the toes of the specialists jobs. BLU's got enough flexibility that it can assume nearly any position in a group, multiple times while leveling to 75 (in those days when we used to kill colibri) I've main healed partys on BLU (no healer lfp). BLU's only weakness is that because it's not as good as the specialist jobs in any one thing, it's not preferred for big 18 member alliance mega boss fights which are basically Legion and Voidwatch.
So for your comparison, it's more like RDM is the straight C student with the BLU being the A student who is also a starter on the all star football team while playing in band. The RDM is the guy who you hang out with when you got nothing else to do and just shooting the sh1t about the world. The BLU is the guy who you actually want on your school's competitive teams. -
09-04-2012, 03:52 AMManaKing
What RDM can win out on is being consistently tougher than BLU, but we can't tank because of Tranquil Heart. I really wish we could toggle that off.
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09-04-2012, 11:27 AMSlvr_Stryker
...wow, you go away for a convention, and massive explosion. Having more or less skimmed through the intelligent bits (basically everything except troll banter), and I...really do have to give a "this is more or less correct" nod in regards to previous posters, *especially* ManaKing. Sometimes it really does help to have someone understand both sides via leveling both sides...again, I've really only leveled RDM to 49, so I only really know about a third of what RDM is really capable of. BLU absolutely *destroys* RDM in the melee department if they're upon equal footing gear-wise. That's likely because of the designs for each job.
And, ultimately, I think that's what's killing RDM; it's because SE is trying *really* hard to keep it within the realm of "jack of all trades, master of none". It's the fact that they try to keep it so that they're *not* the specialists of anything, and trying to keep them within their versatility state that really hinders them, which is bad when so many other jobs are flourishing. Which is why I made the suggestions I made, because then it would have its own little spot as a true versatility specialist, able to be put in anywhere and everywhere without missing a beat, all without giving it complete OP marks like it was in the ToAU side. -
09-04-2012, 06:27 PMsaevelUsed to be, now BLU has more survival tools, mostly via it's self buffs and stun lock.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaKing
SE has gone out of their way to ensure RDM got absolutely nothing that would make it useful. They even trolled us with "Gravity II", a completely useless spell. Then later basically said "well we can't give you anymore new spells cause we need the space for other jobs". -
09-04-2012, 07:17 PMKristal
RDM can't get more unique buffs due to the limits on simultanious magic effects on a character, but that is being addressed by the devs currently.
When that is done though, I could see RDM getting a host of new unique self-only buffs like Temper to mirror those traits of BLU. We might not get a Dual Wield trait, but we could get a Composure-like ability (lasting 2 hours) that gives it or a buff that increases existing Dual Wield (if subbed from NIN or DNC).
Perhaps I'm optimistic here, but maybe that's what Encomium's purpose will be: turn RDM melee in overdrive through the buffs. -
09-04-2012, 07:22 PMDemon6324236
Not only that but they refuse to make more room by removing stupidly pointless spells, such as single target Bar-spells. If they would remove some of the worthless spells in the game, then it might be easier for them to add more.
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09-04-2012, 07:24 PMDemon6324236If they gave RDM a somewhat potent Brave & Faith set of spells as we have talked about in the past, it would be great. That could help RDM get the boost in Attack/Acc we miss out on from having to /NIN or /DNC instead of /WAR, also it would give us the ability to not suck in every way next to a BLM or SCH when nuking. I suppose if thats the case, all hope may not be lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristal
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09-04-2012, 07:31 PMKristalEncomium was RDM's last best hope for fame. It failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
But in the year of Adoulin's release, it became something greater.
Our last best hope.. for mediocrity! -
09-04-2012, 08:47 PMAfaniaThis is not true, I know many groups bring RDM over WHM to legion(although I still bring both RDM and WHM to legion) due to RDM offering other aspect WHM doesn't have(CS stun/dia3/refresh2). Although SCH is not skippable due to more stuns and embrava.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
BLU's versatility shines in lowman, where RDM shines in legion when versatile mage are needed in an ally and everything is zerged, and rely on cure/stun/def down heavily. Which job has the ability like RDM, that can CS stun when needed, assist cure/stun, refresh2 others, and dia3 everything.
In a standard legion ally setup, (assuming you still keep a WHM to cure instead of RDM)
DDx5 COR SCH x3 BRD PLD THF WHM SMN x4 RDM x1
P.S, some group use 6 SMN, 0 WHM, 1 RDM and 2 SCH instead.
You get 4 PD 1 CS so good protection on 5 NM total. You got dia3+refresh2 and 2 person curing DDs, plus 4 stunners total.
Change that RDM to SMN, you still get protection on 5 NM, but your dia3 down grade to dia2, no refresh 2 for WHM, 3 stunner instead of 4, and only 1 healer in ally(SCH need to focus on stun).
Change RDM to BLU, you get worse stun/def down, and can't cure outside of pt, you can't output melee dmg without PD also.
And BLM isn't used in legion except Hall of An.
Change RDM to 4th SCH, you still don't have dia3/refresh2, and no CS stun either.
Change RDM to 2nd COR or BRD, any 2nd+ COR or BRD doesn't offer much more after 1st unless you need extra reset chance. BRD can sing 3~4 songs and any song after 4th doesn't add much. Doing 4 COR rolls doesn't add a lot more dmg(After chaos/DA roll the only roll left is hunters/regain, which adds very little dmg if acc capped) to melees but it takes 2 more min to do 2 more rolls. As for reset, many groups don't rely on COR reset anymore either.
RDM can also do Impact(which is needed in Mul), although other mages can also cast it, they're often busy with their own task and RDM is the best role to do it. You also need ES for it on some NM, and RDM is the best one to do it since they're subbing BLM already.
Is it possible to "beat" legion with 0 RDM? Probably yes, but it's also possible to beat it with 0 SMN, or MNK x5 instead of Rag DD, or no SCH/BRD/COR at all. Not to mention I tend to use RDM roll in Mul on SCH since Mul mobs resists stun easily, and having RDM in pt helps.
The fact is, having a RDM in legion ally, brings much more to the table than no RDM. Change that RDM to any other job, it doesn't offer much more than having an RDM in ally. It just doesn't.
So there is your RDM's own thunder and room for jack of all trade mage. It's a versatile "mage" that shines in event like legion. Like how BLU is versatile "1h melee" that shines in lowman against EP/DC mobs. They're different, works differently, and shines in different area. You bring BLU to dyna/salvage/nyzul/Abby/old HNM and so on, when you only have 2~3 ppl in pt, and BLU can cover multiple roles when pt size so small. I don't understand why everyone is jealous(?) of BLU, when BLU can't even get into legion ally.
RDM doesn't need more melee ability, it should stay as a mage with unique aspect that you'd need in event such as legion. RDM also covers multiple aspect in ally, stun/cure/CS/dia3/refresh2/impact, and other debuff when PD is down, which works very well in legion. Not to mention 2nd wave ironclad in Mul and 1st wave sandworm in Muru is total dick to deal with without CS.