FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

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Originally Posted by Sakima

May not let you take 0 dmg, but mdt/pdt sure adds alot of survival for mobs like Pil and Aello
for any job. I say this because i am a experienced tank on war and ninja even! on said mobs along the sides of other wars and monks, rarely will i drop to less then 1khp flank opening included. As said before why would you bring down the kill speed by having the focus on 1-2 pld tanks when said focus can be on a versatile dd tank? I can assure you there was no pld in the ally in our 2min 10 sec (give or take) Pil last night, no exaggeration i wasn't even the one timing it. Paladin is great damage mitigation no one is taking that away but while you awe in your aegis dmg taken i am getting multiple runs in.

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And I can assure you that you're full of BS, again everyone jumps on the bandwagon, gives outrageous bs eyeballed stats to make themselves look like they know what there talking about. There are the rare VERY rare times that you chain stagger mobs like pil, but are you really going to sit there and tell me you pop spam pil with heavy DD only and magically land enough staggers so the paper thin wars actually survive more then 30 secs. So you constantly get GA HQs and its always RR or you magic is always thunder 2? its takes longer then 2 min just to cycle the GA WS.
Again,like your fellow asura fool stop posting BS and prove it.

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Originally Posted by zagam

And I can assure you that you're full of BS, again everyone jumps on the bandwagon, gives outrageous bs eyeballed stats to make themselves look like they know what there talking about. There are the rare VERY rare times that you chain stagger mobs like pil, but are you really going to sit there and tell me you pop spam pil with heavy DD only and magically land enough staggers so the paper thin wars actually survive more then 30 secs. So you constantly get GA HQs and its always RR or you magic is always thunder 2? its takes longer then 2 min just to cycle the GA WS.
Again,like your fellow asura fool stop posting BS and prove it.

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Everything you just said has more bullshi then i posted, here ill point them out to you. Whats hard about procing through Pil's shield besides tp gain for melee, worse case scenario make use of monarchdrink/kaggen atmacite to battle your way through the proc. Your comment about war taking 2 mins to hit proc leaves me wondering what kind of support/atmacites your dd have also lack of communication in your ally. Only right on thing you said in your post is that i "sit there and spam pop Pil with heavy dd." Never did i say the ally is only full of wars or that its the only job that has viable source of dmg. Alliance setup is fairly balanced in proc's/dmg even make a drk or bluemage sub pld from time to time if it makes you feel better. Let me clarify something never did i say we do 2min 10 sec fights every round was just to indicate the difference of letting your well geared melee tank vs paladin. I am sorry my experiences have you perplexed that you result to insults, i could care less that you don't believe me i know what i am saying is true, have all the peace of mind i need on that aspect. Ill see what i can do about that video should provide some motivation in the ore/log hunt that is VW.

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Originally Posted by Sakima

i could care less that you don't believe me i know what i am saying is true, have all the peace of mind i need on that aspect. Ill see what i can do about that video should provide some motivation in the ore/log hunt that is VW.

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Again making FALSE claims about how amazing you are without as much as a screenshot just to prove your bandwagon mentality , that's my whole point and neither one of you can prove yourself other then I beat pil in 2 min kekeke. I never said bring an army of wars, show me ONE WAR that can A. cycle ALL GA ws in 2 min AND the kicker? be alive the entire time main tanking, lets not even get into the fact the war is there for MULTIPLE weapon proc...

So to summarize you beat Pil in 2-3 min with war main tank correct? lets try and get that vid done before we hit 99 m'kay?

Bandwagon mentality ok.. lol not really sure to what your reffering to but hey if it makes you feel cool keep on saying it. Never did imply i am the reason for said quick kills, credit goes to the alliance. All i see is alot of mad in your posts. Im guessing you never fully read my posts because i never implied it was 1 war tank or 1 war hitting the procs. Read my first post "along the sides of other wars and monks" (sure sounds like 1 war doing all the work lol). Its very clear you have not experienced how fast pace vw can be(more reason a pld shouldnt be tanking), don't get mad at me because its within the boundaries of the system. Its obvious i wont get my point across to you, so ya your right about a video doesn't mean i am making false statements. If a video is made it will be of a fast kill and a war holding Pil so everything is clear for you, ill make sure some flank openings are captured so there's no doubt for your paladin only tank thinking. To summarize Pil can be killed quickly and if needed be held by war or monk without the use of fanatic drinks.

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Originally Posted by Sakima

Bandwagon mentality ok.. lol not really sure to what your reffering to but hey if it makes you feel cool keep on saying it. Never did imply i am the reason for said quick kills, credit goes to the alliance. All i see is alot of mad in your posts. Im guessing you never fully read my posts because i never implied it was 1 war tank or 1 war hitting the procs. Read my first post "along the sides of other wars and monks" (sure sounds like 1 war doing all the work lol). Its very clear you have not experienced how fast pace vw can be(more reason a pld shouldnt be tanking), don't get mad at me because its within the boundaries of the system. Its obvious i wont get my point across to you, so ya your right about a video doesn't mean i am making false statements. If a video is made it will be of a fast kill and a war holding Pil so everything is clear for you, ill make sure some flank openings are captured so there's no doubt for your paladin only tank thinking. To summarize Pil can be killed quickly and if needed be held by war or monk without the use of fanatic drinks.

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aaaaaand now the resorting to I don't have to prove anything to you lol, I knew shoulda placed bets since I knew you cant back any claim up , Asura people are so thick. Yes a video or lack of DOES prove your making false statements my first post was to that gimp thats never done VW saying a single war CAN solo tank all of voidwatch and you had to chime im with BS that you cant back up, so again prove it . Prove your 2 min pils, prove your no plds on vw. You beat aello withought plds holding adds too I bet, oh wait nm you beat that in 45 seconds.....

so since you can't comprehend basic English ill dumb it down for you.
Pics or stfu

lolasura

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

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So you're here to prove all can be done without? again stfu and prove it.

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Originally Posted by zagam

So you're here to prove all can be done without? again stfu and prove it.

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http://i44.tinypic.com/125qmmv.jpg

not a pld in sight



lol asura

It has take FAR too long for anyone to mention how redundant Paladin is with Sentinel's Scherzo and Earthen Armor.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

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The worst part is there's someone here +1'ing him

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Holy shit, all this because someone honestly believes it is straight up impossible to do Voidwatch without Paladins?

This is retarded. Shut the hell up. Voidwatch can be done without a single Paladin at any tier when the group is experienced and coordinated enough.

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Mind you the screenshot i posted was of a shout pickup group from port juneo, not nearly as coordinated as a static\linkshell would be. and we still won relatively easy every time with a mnk and a war tanking. Pld is my first love, but it's nothing more than a crutch for new content till people get better acclimated.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

not a pld in sight



lol asura

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Are you kidding? all this is , is some colecovision graphics with what looks like a sole mnk tanking at the end of a fight with a cor smn and god knows what that other dude is, I get your need to try and save face , and posting a crappy SS with 90% of the players jobs unknown isnt exactly proof. Other then the fact you have Malekith which does explain alot.....

Pld will always have a place in VW , forget the staggers it brings because if that's the case it would be mnk/whms only anyway. Id rather have a pld holding and letting the melee do what there there for instead of rotating out weakened players because some dude said on some forum lolpld. What job do you use to hold pets on zilart? serious question, I bet there are a few that can but none as good as pld.

That was Kinggalka's run, I can vouch for the fact that he uses MNK and WAR tanks, he even occasionally tanks on DRK (Looks like that's him there sporting his new gear). I have personally tanked for him on WAR without death, or even near death on several occasions. I use a cap MDT and a 41% PDT set that mixes some haste into the game (yeah, you don't even need to cap PDT to tank, it's better if you mix in offensive stats anyway).

On the other hand whenever a group uses a PLD tank, things take longer and become much more difficult. PLD is utter trash atm. Don't let it reflect yourself, it's not your fault that the job is so utterly useless (it's been useless since Seigan, but that's a story for another topic).

Get a WHM who has close to, or capped, cure casting time and high cure potency and you'll be safe to tank with anyone who has a PDT/MDT set. Honestly the WHM is the most important part of the party if using DD tanks, so that's probably why you think PLD is necessary. Get better WHMs and move out of the safety zone that is PLD.

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Originally Posted by zagam

Are you kidding? all this is , is some colecovision graphics with what looks like a sole mnk tanking at the end of a fight with a cor smn and god knows what that other dude is, I get your need to try and save face , and posting a crappy SS with 90% of the players jobs unknown isnt exactly proof. Other then the fact you have Malekith which does explain alot.....

Pld will always have a place in VW , forget the staggers it brings because if that's the case it would be mnk/whms only anyway. Id rather have a pld holding and letting the melee do what there there for instead of rotating out weakened players because some dude said on some forum lolpld. What job do you use to hold pets on zilart? serious question, I bet there are a few that can but none as good as pld.

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use your 1\2 brain and look at the hp\mp list of the alliance and tell me who can even come close to being a pld? malekith rdm, silenced drk. I'm an aegis\almace pld and I'm there on my galka whm with 900mp and melee atmacites. You can see where pld belong in vw or in endgame... on other jobs

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Originally Posted by zagam

some colecovision graphics

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Please don't drag one of the greatest game consoles ever into your personal penis-measuring match, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

http://i44.tinypic.com/125qmmv.jpg
not a pld in sight
lol asura

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This wouldn't be a screen shot showing third party software would it?

Is that still against TOS?

Oh well, I'm sure SE never reads these forums.

Nothing you post on the forum has any real affect on your in game character. Getting Perma'd from forums means nothing, you can still play the game.

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Originally Posted by Sappho

This wouldn't be a screen shot showing third party software would it?

Is that still against TOS?

Oh well, I'm sure SE never reads these forums.

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oh it's photoshoped.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

oh it's photoshoped.

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:) Oh, I see!

Can we get an update, Camate?

Throwing my 2 cents. I apologize in advance for any miss use of words or wrongly stated information:

I didn't read the whole thread, but I feel the frustration of many about how the PLD job has developed over the years, and how any adjustments made by SE still leave a huge gap to fill in regards to useful abilities, spells, and stats compared to other jobs. Everybody knows most DD melee jobs can deal high damage which is the main and fastest source of enmity generation in the game, and with a healer support, said jobs can stay alive to keep the attention of the monster for as long as needed. In the case of the PLD, it loses in damage to DDs. On defense, PLD outranks any job, but without enmity, there is no point in looking at it due to the fact that most of the time other jobs do the tanking.
During the wyrm era, PLD was somewhat useful for fights that took a long time to win. Still, once people found out fastest ways to complete the same fights, i.e., Fafnir, Nidhogg, Tiamat, PLD was left as a job one needed to just gear up for show, and for when fights went wrong and there were full alliance wipes. Now after abyssea and voidwatch, fights are even faster requiring jobs that can deal great amounts of damage, PLD is not one of them.
Dear SE:
Do I want PLD as the ultimate DD job? NO
Do I want PLD as the ultimate tanking job? YES
What can you do for PLDs SE?
- Really simple, ADD a job ability that keeps the enemy(ies) full attention on the PLD until the player is KO or leaves the battle. This ability should have a 30sec recast(for mobs that reset hate), and please don't combine it with Invincible or any other ability that takes minutes to reuse.

The benefits of my request, which I would think other people have made as well, are that no one would complain about it because it doesn't increase the damage dealing capacity of PLD and it will keep the hate on one player regardless of damage dealt by others. Flash is not enough, Cover is not enough, Sentinel is not enough, etc., but this ability will be enough to make PLD even more useful than it is now. Another benefit, this ability is that it is FAIR; the attention of the enemy will be focused on the PLD as long as the player is alive, which makes the player dependent on the PLD resources, such as, healing and defense, and it makes the PLD dependent of other healer jobs to maintain hate.
Last but no least, the job should be enjoyable, there is nothing more frustrating than having to run after a mob that is going for a BLM or a RNG after a high damage spell was casted or a weaponskill went off. I understand all DD should use "moderation", but that's a word that doesn't exist in fast pace battles.

Thank you.

Paladin has been somewhat obsolete for as long as I have played. I started about 6 months after NA release and I loved the idea of PLD from the time I heard about it. I was quite good at and took pride in the role but about the time I got to 40th level I became a glorified puller because the game does not need tanks for almost all the content. My brother played BLM and got three others and I pulled they nuked straight away and when I lost aggro we all cast a couple of low level heals on each other and went back to work. Fortunately for many PLDs people didn't take to this idea for along time. They all wanted a tank, healer and three DDers. The secret is out, you don't need a tank. Even fighting most NMs temp items and DDers with a good WHM can be managed quite easily. This is insult enough, but not being able to get seals as PLD is hard pill to swallow. I have to go on my BLM and stagger because I can't get an invite or even people to go with me if I am on PLD without the mockery. Worse I can't solo the NMs and mobs that subtlety classes can to get pop items. I have no problem farming stuff with THF because of evasion and high DD output compared to PLD. PLD is too gear dependent and the small kid on the playground wanting to play dodgeball. I guess i will just do what everyone else with an understanding of how useless PLD is and level a BST. Love SE but I feel jipped for my loyalty to a job SE can't iron out.

The issue with asking for a hate locking JA is it takes away any/all strategic enmity management required to actually tank in the game. We don't need an easy button for hate management and it's not realistic to think that is the answer.

2 things are going to have to happen.

First and foremost, the overall hate cap needs to be increased. We're beyond the age of the game where 800 dmg was considered "pretty good", but the hate cap hasn't changed to reflect that. 1 or 2 WS's putting you at hate cap is where the issue is. Even if a DD didn't want to tank and was trying to hold back (understandable considering the DD's who carry proper MDT/PDT sets is really low), they shouldn't be expected to just stop WS'ing in order to "let" us tank.

Second, give PLD a slightly higher hate threshold than it's counterparts, maybe only accessible by a job trait. Nothing too high, nothing too low. What this would do is still put emphasis on building hate quickly with all the tools we have at our disposal, and once you reach that individual hate cap, it puts emphasis on mitigating damage taken so you don't dip down back into universal hate cap ranges and cause the mob to spin like a top.

What about easy content you ask? Well it would still be beneficial to bring a PLD, but not required. Even on some of the easier VW NM's, the ability to focus all dmg done onto the one job that's better at mitigating it than any other means you need less support to keep the rest of the DD's alive. replace a WHM with a WAR instead, and there you have it.

Granted the above is kind of a moot point when under ideal conditions the DD's are rocking Fanatic's drinks 24/7. The above suggestion was more or less made with the notion that Fanatics is not going to be a permanent thing in endgame from here on out (at least it better not...)

Just my 2 cents.

Maybe you missed this from the new 2 hour thread:

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

[*]Paladin
The new 2-hour ability can be used for cases where just turtling up with Invincible and letting an enemy wail on you will not turn the tides of the fight, since you can enhance your defenses while reducing an enemy’s HP with the reflected damage.

*As mentioned previously in the post about adding an enmity boost effect to this ability, we understand the problems with the enmity cap. We plan on considering this for paladin in general and not limiting it only to the new 2-hour ability effect.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

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well the enmitty system is gonna need a dramatic overhual if Pld is gonna ever get back doing what it does best.

Here's my take, if your in doubt, you take the pld, if victory is certain, you ZERG it... Someone said it below "we can't expect them to "let" us tank.", ....that's their bad when they die then.... But yeah, a lot of jobs can do well in mitigating dmg, and making crap die, but them aegis. And o chain plds.... They still know they're the bomb. I think for the most part, when a pld is needed by a group they shine, when its not.... It had lost its place.... My thinking is saying maybe the dds got all their sparklies and are e peening out.... And crying when their pld cant get the mob off of them in the 3 seconds it took the mob to rip their,face off.... "Letting" your tank tank, has always been part of the plan..... We often are just not that patient when we can ZERG so much. The 3 hour hold fests are over, unless we want em back. And let the tank tqnk.....(keep in mind, our plds are pretty buff, aegis and/or ochain, empy or mythic or just a paloladin. I like em in my alliances though.

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Originally Posted by Nawesemo

Here's my take, if your in doubt, you take the pld, if victory is certain, you ZERG it... Someone said it below "we can't expect them to "let" us tank.", ....that's their bad when they die then.... But yeah, a lot of jobs can do well in mitigating dmg, and making crap die, but them aegis. And o chain plds.... They still know they're the bomb. I think for the most part, when a pld is needed by a group they shine, when its not.... It had lost its place.... My thinking is saying maybe the dds got all their sparklies and are e peening out.... And crying when their pld cant get the mob off of them in the 3 seconds it took the mob to rip their,face off.... "Letting" your tank tank, has always been part of the plan..... We often are just not that patient when we can ZERG so much. The 3 hour hold fests are over, unless we want em back. And let the tank tqnk.....(keep in mind, our plds are pretty buff, aegis and/or ochain, empy or mythic or just a paloladin. I like em in my alliances though.

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An interesting observation, and something that played on my mind in abyssea yesterday. Our group was helping a NIN to get all of his gear, which involved killing both Indrik, and Kakawhatever (the other Unicorn in grauberg for nin back). As anyone who has fought these mobs before will know, both mobs have the ability to 1-shot most jobs that don't have Scherzo/Migawari/Earthen armor.

This meant that as THF, I had to be cautious, as even with -DT/Regen atmas I'd be toast if I caught the wrong TP move. Luckily, we had a PLD in our group with aegis/ochain (I assume he used Aegis for this but didn't check). Due to the ridiculous hate cap, it's not long before we're both bouncing hate, depsite me using TA Exenterator a couple of times at the start.

To counter getting 1-shotted, I had to "let the PLD tank". Not so easy when every time I hit the mob, I pull hate; so I had to melee 2-3 attack rounds after each TP move used by the mob, then turn and let the PLD take hate again until mob uses TP move again (2 in Indrik's case as it cures, then uses Attack TP move back-to back each time).

So, not easy, not quick, but possible. In abyssea for kill speed, it's probably faster to just zombie with apoc atma TBH, but outside, certainly the way to go.

As for the fix, the change to enmity for PLD doesn't have to be all that drastic. If the current caps are 10,000 CE and 10,000 VE, SE only needs to up those caps for PLD to 10,100 each to allow them to stay above the DD's hate cap most of the time.
Only massive damage moves are going to drop the PLD's hate enough for the DDs to get hate, just like back at 75.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

You realize that means pld can never, ever lose hate no matter what he does, or anyone else in the alliance does, right? The only thing that would ever make a pld lose hate in this case would be the mob using a hate reset move.

The gimpiest gimp of a pld would be able to keep hate over any DD, no matter how strong they were.

Do you seriously think this is a good idea?

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Not really, lets say a monster faces drk, then pld stays in the middle, at this point monster still targets drk but "thx to this new trait" drk just receives half of dmg and the other half is directed to pld, in the case pld moves from the middle, monster keeps facing drk and the dmg gets back full to drk.

ofc it would not be a 50%, it could start with 20%, then with some "new" armor might come with an extend to this ability, like: "Companion gloves: def ?? agi ?? dex ?? Valliation +5"


i digged this idea from another thread,