Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

First batch. More to come.

184 kills with no visible TH procs.
105 feathers
57.06% drop rate with TH3

.... discuss.

lol seems like it wasn't just wild onions. They either decreased the drop rate on more stuff/everything to place TH3 in (lol), or maybe TH3 does something completely different than the previous ones, or lol maybe it's broken?

A test synced to lower levels would do us good too i think.

I only see 2 options:

1: TH3 is actually just TH2+1
2: They globally decreased drop rates to balance things with TH3 since TH3 was really only added to keep THF relevant and not to increase the amount of treasure we get.

I'm leaning towards option 1 because option 2 would require a lot of man hours. We need a new TH2 test to compare too >.<

1.96*SQRT(.5708*.4292/184) = +/-7.2%
So we can exclude 69% with 95% confidence.

Wow, this makes me suspect Treasure Hunter III is actually just TH+1 as well. That's a huge blow to THF. Now the validity of your job basically rides on whatever the TH proc system gives you, an effect so weak that it has never been detected. Better start leveling BRD so you can BRD/THF! lol

SE is such a bag of cocks, haha. Seriously? It would have broken the game to give THF another real tier of TH?

After thinking about this for a few more minutes, I guess we could ask "What does Treasure Hunter +1 even do?" The options seem to be:
1) Minor increase in drop rate, on the order of 1/1024
2) Perhaps normal TH doesn't affect Rare item drop rates, but Treasure Hunter +1 does.
3) Some other variation of 2.
4) Gives a percentage chance at a third re-roll, which would ultimately be indistinguishable from 1.

I kinda prefer to illude myself thinking that they did something wrong lol. A simple +1 is really messed up...

As to make it 1%, shouldn't it be 10/1024 there Byrth? or do you think TH+1 is actually +0.1%? lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

2: They globally decreased drop rates to balance things with TH3 since TH3 was really only added to keep THF relevant and not to increase the amount of treasure we get.

---

Could just level sync to a level where you only get TH2 to test this.
Edit: Did you count coli beaks too?

Could some items have a "Cap" to increased drop rate? Hell could all items have some "Cap" to maximum TH Effectiveness?

I'm proposing a question i know would be hell to test... I'd do level 75 sync first, kill another batch of colibri and check their drop rate...

I'll save my judgement on this for the time being... I don't want to be angry about THF anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laphine

I kinda prefer to illude myself thinking that they did something wrong lol. A simple +1 is really messed up...

As to make it 1%, shouldn't it be 10/1024 there Byrth? or do you think TH+1 is actually +0.1%? lol

---

I was thinking 1/1024 or 1/256. The reason I think this is because of our other model of TH. If TH+1 increased drop rate additively, TH1/TH2 would magnify the effect and we should be able to pick it out instead of consistently not seeing a damned difference, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodles355

Could just level sync to a level where you only get TH2 to test this.
Edit: Did you count coli beaks too?

---

I was thinking I could just ???/THF.

I did count beaks but I didn't note when they dropped on a TH4 kill. I'm keeping a count of TH4 kills separate so I can post numbers on that when I get a few hundred. (Currently I only have 26 ;_; ). I wanted to keep tracking the TH4 drops as simple as possible.

One other number I was able to come up with while doing this was a 5~% proc rate on my relic damage hidden effect. There had been some talk of increased proc rates but I don't know if that had been debunked yet.

I had 32 procs in 2052 swings. Adjusting for 19% Triple attack 13% double attack and dual wield (Relic damage can't proc on the 2nd or 3rd hit of multi-attack rounds or off hand swings) I came up with 665~ procable swings. If someone more mathy wants to check that, please do.

I'll do another 200 or so kills tomorrow.

That would actually be ~691 proccable swings, because TA procs before DA. Same conclusion though, it's about 5%.

Gah!.. I thought it was the other way around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

I was thinking I could just ???/THF.

I did count beaks but I didn't note when they dropped on a TH4 kill. I'm keeping a count of TH4 kills separate so I can post numbers on that when I get a few hundred. (Currently I only have 26 ;_; ). I wanted to keep tracking the TH4 drops as simple as possible.

One other number I was able to come up with while doing this was a 5~% proc rate on my relic damage hidden effect. There had been some talk of increased proc rates but I don't know if that had been debunked yet.

I had 32 procs in 2052 swings. Adjusting for 19% Triple attack 13% double attack and dual wield (Relic damage can't proc on the 2nd or 3rd hit of multi-attack rounds or off hand swings) I came up with 665~ procable swings. If someone more mathy wants to check that, please do.

I'll do another 200 or so kills tomorrow.

---

I don't think it's a hidden affect on the relic it's self.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using SA and TA.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Relic weapons on their 2~3x Dmg proc.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Empyrean when ODD is up.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on SA when using AF3 hands.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on weaker monsters.

What do all of these have in common? You're doing more damage. I've been thinking this for a while now, but more and more it's looking like the more damage you do on a hit, the greater the chance to lvl up TH. Would explain all of the above. I find it very unlikely that they would add a hidden affect to Mandau that rises the chance to proc a level up, concidering it is also a brd and rdm weapon. Ditto Twatstar and Dnc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodles355

I don't think it's a hidden affect on the relic it's self.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using SA and TA.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Relic weapons on their 2~3x Dmg proc.
People are seeing an increase in level ups using Empyrean when ODD is up.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on SA when using AF3 hands.
People are seeing an increase in level ups on weaker monsters.

What do all of these have in common? You're doing more damage. I've been thinking this for a while now, but more and more it's looking like the more damage you do on a hit, the greater the chance to lvl up TH. Would explain all of the above. I find it very unlikely that they would add a hidden affect to Mandau that rises the chance to proc a level up, concidering it is also a brd and rdm weapon. Ditto Twatstar and Dnc.

---

You've misunderstood. I'm only talking about the hidden 3x damage proc on Mandau. Nothing to do with TH. It was just something unrelated that I figured I would test while I was out there.

Ah sorry, thought you meant you were getting 5% more TH procs with mandau and someone had told you about a hidden TH affect.
I'm still interested in the more dmg=more chance of proc idea though.

Round 2

Got cut short by wind weather and an army of BSTs.

104/157= 66.24%

Drop rates were higher today. Not Drastically higher I guess for the small sample size but it still kinda surprised me. The only difference between today and yesterday was sanction. It's not unreasonable to think that the proper crystal effect would increase drop rates. Do we know if Thorny had sanction during his parses?

Running total - 209/341 = 61.29%

Could you start posting Beak drops as well? They're also important.

Sorry, I said that backwards but did the math in the right order. TA procs before DA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodles355

Could you start posting Beak drops as well? They're also important.

---

For the purpose of this test I don't see why they are important but if you insist I will start posting how many dropped. I'm not keeping track of how many of them dropped on TH4 kills though. That's just more work for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

Round 2

Got cut short by wind weather and an army of BSTs.

104/157= 66.24%

Drop rates were higher today. Not Drastically higher I guess for the small sample size but it still kinda surprised me. The only difference between today and yesterday was sanction. It's not unreasonable to think that the proper crystal effect would increase drop rates. Do we know if Thorny had sanction during his parses?

Running total - 209/341 = 61.29%

---

I don't know whether he did or not, and word on the street is that he quit. If his sample size was that large and data collection was automated, I think it's fairly safe to say he probably didn't for most of it. Your two samples are almost exclusive, I think, in that the statistically exclude each other. So Sanction likely has an effect? Not something I would have predicted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

I don't know whether he did or not, and word on the street is that he quit. If his sample size was that large and data collection was automated, I think it's fairly safe to say he probably didn't for most of it. Your two samples are almost exclusive, I think, in that the statistically exclude each other. So Sanction likely has an effect? Not something I would have predicted.

---

Yeah it was pretty surprising. I'll go without sanction next time and see if the drop rates go back down. If sanction does affect drop rates that opens a whole new can of worms. I'm gonna start a new thread for this stuff when I get my next batch of kills in since it seems like it's going to end up being more of an undertaking and is pretty far off topic.

yeah let's go back to the whining! lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coder

I am fairly sure that what people think are 'hidden procs' during WS are in fact procs off of melee attacks that don't show the added effect in the chat log because of a gear swap. Go try it out with an enspell on, swap gear and the effect doesn't show in the log. I'm pretty confident in saying that TH cannot proc on WS.

---

This sounds like a sound theory. I'll try to do some testing for this when possible.

Also, I'll start mass murdering Lesser Colibris now. I won't do any gear changes or weapon skills either, just to make sure. I'll do THF90/NIN45 for TH3, WAR90/THF45 for TH2 and WAR90/SAM45 for TH0. On WAR I'll be able to WS as well, so that'll be fun. Only TH1 might be tricky, which we wouldn't need, if it behaves as expected, but would still be nice to have a sample, in case it's something completely different. I might delevel WAR to 89, just to check it out, then I'll get back to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

This sounds like a sound theory. I'll try to do some testing for this when possible.

Also, I'll start mass murdering Lesser Colibris now. I won't do any gear changes or weapon skills either, just to make sure. I'll do THF90/NIN45 for TH3, WAR90/THF45 for TH2 and WAR90/SAM45 for TH0. On WAR I'll be able to WS as well, so that'll be fun. Only TH1 might be tricky, which we wouldn't need, if it behaves as expected, but would still be nice to have a sample, in case it's something completely different. I might delevel WAR to 89, just to check it out, then I'll get back to you.

---

Started a new thread specifically for this TH testing. POST UR DATUHS HUR!

Okay, ill get a ton of flames but who cares. If they go towards hate control what are some exact things we would need?

-something that lowers the cap of hate for a party/alliance member to something like 80~90% of cap
-something like a 50% trick attack (doesnt game break because you are now behind the tank for conal etc)
-as stated before separated collab/accomp
-something like add 10~20% of your hate to someone else

that said i would prefer more DD/general utility updates since Dancer can utility and damage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phen

Okay, ill get a ton of flames but who cares. If they go towards hate control what are some exact things we would need?

-something that lowers the cap of hate for a party/alliance member to something like 80~90% of cap
-something like a 50% trick attack (doesnt game break because you are now behind the tank for conal etc)
-as stated before separated collab/accomp
-something like add 10~20% of your hate to someone else

that said i would prefer more DD/general utility updates since Dancer can utility and damage

---

If i could dig it up i would, But i posted a slew of ideas "in line" with the "vision" SE has for THF. Its somewhere in this thread not too far back :X

the simplest hate management update i can think of is giving acco/cola 25' range and ally-wide scope. Doesn't even need to change their recasts. With this they would go from a nearly useless status to a somewhat useful one.

I don't know, Expanding their targets from 5 people to 17 would hurt it too, because 1 THF across 17 people and a 1 minute timer for 25% of the Enmity is not going to be a lot of enmity, definitely not "controlling the tides of battle" as SE wants.

Also i found the suggestions i made earlier.

Reduce Steal Timer down to 1 minute timer. Have it inflict Damage, Modded by DEX, Similar to Jumps, and grant TP.

Reduce Despoil to 1 minute, and remove its shared timer, Also give Despoil 100% Chance to inflict an Ailment, Regardless of rather or not an item was stolen: Also add sub-category for it similar to Quick Draw/Sambas/etc, to allow THF to more accurately control the ability, as follows:

*Despoil: Head - Induces head related Ailments. Silence/Amnesia/Blind/M.Acc Down/M.atk down
*Despoil: Body - Induces Body related Ailments. Paralysis/Slow/Attack Down/Defense down
*Depoils: Legs - Induces Leg related Ailments. Gravity/Evasion Down/Accuracy down


Mug*
Reduce mug to 2min~3min timer or less. Add "Aura Steal" to mug. Allow Mugging of Cruor.
Allow mug to deal damage, Modded by your DEX, and grant TP. Similar to jumps.

New Job abilities:

Set up
*Enfeebling Magic Cast on the enemy after this JA is activated will gain a Boost in potency.
*3min Recast
*1min duration (or until next hit lands)
*25% boost to enfeebling magic potency/duration

Treachery
*Your next hit will increase the amount of Damage the Enemy takes
*5min Recast
*1min Duration (Or until you land a hit)
*Lasts 1 minutes.
*Enemy takes 5~10% more damage.

exposure
*Your next hit will decrease the enemies critical hit evasion
*3min recast
*1min Duration (or until next hit is landed)
*Lasts 2 minutes
*Decreases Their Crit.Evasion by 15%

disperse
*Sheds 25% of your current Enmity.
*1min recast
*Useful to use with Collaborator. Allows THF to truly control Enmity.

Frame
*Grants 25% of your enmity to a party member
*1min recast
*Could share timer with Disperse?
*Can only be used on someone who has hate on current enemy (I.E you couldn't use it on someone who hasn't acted on the mob, thus MPKing them technically)

Decrease Collab to 30 seconds, allow use on alliance(?)
Reduce Accompl to 2min allow use on alliance
Split their timers

Job Traits:

Tricks of the Trade:
Increases Steal, Despoil, Mug, and Lock-picking Success rate. Increases Gil/Cruor obtained through Mug
Lv.15/35/55/75/95
*Each Tier increases Success rate by 3% (total 15%). Increases Gil/Cruor obtained by 2% Per level.

Cunning
Increases the Potency of Despoil Debuffs
Lv.80/95
*Each Teir increases potency and/or Duration of Debuffs by 5%.

Guile
Increases Damage dealt and TP Gained through use of Steal and Mug.
Lv.30/50/70/90
*Each Stage enhances damage dealt by 3%, and TP Gained by 2.

True Stealth
Allows use of Hide on Any Monster.
Lv.75
*Allows you to hide from any enemy, However True Sight/Sound enemies you will not shed hate, You can still activate the JA (And as such use SA from any direction) but no enmity loss will be granted.

I particularly like Disperse, Frame, Tricks of the trade, and True stealth. I also agree with reduction of steal and mug timers. In a game where you basically gain many times more gil per minute than mug grants you every 15 minutes, I can't see how having mug on a timer of less than 5 minutes would be a problem.

I agree, but i think doing those 2 things would help quite a bit (but yeah, not a complete fix). Using RNG as an example. We are hardly in the same pt they are. In fights that RNG prowess is abused, RNGs will get hate. Against Odin, for one, i was mostly thf, and i was never in the RNGs party. I actually enjoyed it because if i were in the RNGs party i wouldn't be properly buffed. Even if i was in their party, chances are i wouldn't be to helpful at all, because they would be too far from Odin for colla to take effect.

I'm gonna wait for the official translation before my head officially explodes but it looks like SE is giving BLU triple attack, gilfinder, and.... treasure hunter. All via setting new spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

I'm gonna wait for the official translation before my head officially explodes but it looks like SE is giving BLU triple attack, gilfinder, and.... treasure hunter. All via setting new spells.

---

TH1 and Gilfinder i won't care about, since those can both be accessed via support job

Triple attack? SE can suck my left (censored) if they don't give us at least Triple Attack II then. Stop whoring our uniqueness -.-.

I understand they want THF To be considered completely useless outside of Lootwhore, but they've already succeeded in that, they can at least stop pouring salt on our wounds. is Triple Attack II too much to ask?

You know, Spankwusler (a.k.a RDM) has been given a new name by GG, I think I'm giving THF a new name, From here on, we are no longer "Thieves" we're "Lootmonger". Please refer to the THF job as "Lootmonger" from this point on.

LTM for short. This will alleviate any confusion new players have when selecting the job expecting it to be useful for anything short of randomly making a loot pool bigger

lootmonger ftl...

Based on Arcon/Insaniac/Thorny's data... maybe /LTM onry. xD

ugh yeah..
/cry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Based on Arcon/Insaniac/Thorny's data... maybe /LTM onry. xD

---

Sadder truths never spoken. i love once we start de-mystifying Treasure Hunter, the more apparent it becomes LTM is useless. Probably why SE never told us how TH Works, because once they did, LTM would truly be a dead job!

The thing I'm looking at.. yes, BLU is probably only gonna get TH1 but they have access to the TH+1 Tarutaru sash giving them potentially /LTM numbers (probably main LTM numbers based on TH testing) without having to even sub the job. That would make 3 jobs now that all have access to the same drop rate increase as LTM without even needing it leveled as a sub. Then you have the jobs that can sub LTM and still maintain most or all of their usefulness. SE needs to come out and tell us what exactly about LTM TH makes it better than TH on other jobs which seems to produce the exact same drop rates OR they can TAKE ONE LOOK AT WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT and give us a reason to continue playing this job.

You know what.. Lootmonger doesn't even fit since so many other jobs can accomplish the same thing we do.. How about Enmity Gimp? EGP?

We're just a nameless dead job If thats the case. LTM is good for now me thinks, We can at least LTM with a 0.002% better rate than the next leading brand...

Really is sad looking at the current state of our job, how ineffective TH+ Gear is, and how useless we are outside of that 1 trait, which isn't even so amazing once you demystify it.

Whats really sickening is SE giving us TH3, and it may actually just be f**king Treasure Hunter +1, which is a giant insult to the job when the difference between TH3 and TH12 is hideously unnoticeable.

Honestly feel like the DEV team is just hoping we fall for the "placebo effect" that is TH4+, in hopes it keeps LTM relevant and they don't have to work on improving it, despite our cries that the job is dead/dying, and these recent tests showing all that we thought keeping us alive, is actually not all that great.

how about Waste of Memory Space? lol

WMS? Seems like a long job name, But so terribly accurate.