On Red Mage melee...

Since WS now use the main-hand's weapon damage rating, tweaking some kind of exception on that level isn't really needed. The only thing "broken" about using a sword's damage with dagger WS would be Evisceration, but if you're using a high damage sword, you're giving up the TP gain of something like Joyeuse, and RDM currently has no multi-hit daggers. Dagger jobs like THF and DNC have a number of daggers with over 40D in comparison, with abilities to help boost their WS. So, while we may come close at times, it's likely a good THF or DNC would still use it better. When you consider life outside Abyssea, Evisceration will also lose some steam since its potential drops off when your crit rate diminishes. The other jobs can fall back to Dancing Edge or, in the case of high DEF mobs, THFs can use SA/TA Mandalic Stab.

So, you're basically looking at a choice between individual WS power or WS frequency.



And yes, things that lock us from other things is not a help. Ideally, a RDM should've been opening SCs for heavier DDs and using MBs to help with their damage contributions and riding Convert/Refresh so we wouldn't have had to rest and thus lose TP, but the players basically perverted those abilities into a healer's tool. The rest of RDM's flaws building upon that didn't really help the situation.

You know what's versatile? More damage
You know what's a great sword/dagger skill? More damage

If base or enhanced damage isn't increased your fights will still forever and no one will want you to melee anyway.
En- spells need cranking up as a reward to sword/dagger use and a penalty to magic casting. That's how things work: you give up magic casting to focus on physical damage.
Melee VS. Magic

Why must RDM forever be not so great at anything BUT enfeebles? Should change the name to Enfeeble Mage. This fencing argument is ridiculous. Does a fencer need to poke you in the chest 400 hundred times to kill you?

I solo'd Khalamari on RDM and it took half an hour. Sure I can say I did it but I used one stone to get there. That is not efficient or cool. If an En- spell was in there backing me up for good 50~100 DMG ,as it should, the fights would not take as long and RDM would... oh /waitforit god-forbid be asked to come do melee!! Otherwise get in the back row and heal.

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Originally Posted by Varchesis

You know what's versatile? More damage

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Even if they did buff our enspells I don't see them buffing them that much, and even then it really wouldn't matter. With dual wield we can probably average 60-70 damage per attack round. That's not terrible, yet inside abyssea that damage averages under 10% of a good Red Mage's damage. Simply put enspells don't scale in abyssea like everything else does which means unless we get some enspells that scale don't expect them to really contribute that much inside abyssea, because for them to actually do a meaningful amount inside abyssea they would pretty much break the game outside abyssea.

(You should really put 2 merits into Dia III, an alliance wide +17.5% (minimum) attack boost is pretty big especially for a Rdm's damage)

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Even if they did buff our enspells I don't see them buffing them that much, and even then it really wouldn't matter. With dual wield we can probably average 60-70 damage per attack round. That's not terrible, yet inside abyssea that damage averages under 10% of a good Red Mage's damage. Simply put enspells don't scale in abyssea like everything else does which means unless we get some enspells that scale don't expect them to really contribute that much inside abyssea, because for them to actually do a meaningful amount inside abyssea they would pretty much break the game outside abyssea.

(You should really put 2 merits into Dia III, an alliance wide +17.5% (minimum) attack boost is pretty big especially for a Rdm's damage)

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I disagree but, the concept of game-breaking is some sort of fear we all have. Abyssea is game-breaking cause it makes you not want to do any content outside of it. So, the point seems moot.

The game is broken. Who needs a RDM now anyway? :mad:

If RDMs want to melee more (which is the focus of this thread) then RDM melee needs to compete with other melees to deserve a spot. Why would that break the game?
There would be just one less SAM DRK BLU RNG WAR in the party...
Merits and enfeebles are not the answer I am sorry. Like I said just forget thinking about building gear for melee or SE ever giving you gear for melee because RDMs constantly show that they will take magic gear over melee gear anyway.

BSTs complained and got more of what they want. RDMs won't complain cause we have some notion of chivalry or fencing or Altana knows what... and the result is RDMs will be haste-healing-refresh slaves forever. Heck, even refresh is mostly moot in Abyssea. So Haste and backup heal 'cause you can't main heal against NMs like a WHM. Wait.. don't Haste cause we need to proc and ppl are already doing too much damage...
God, why am I the only one who sees RDM dieing slowly?

Want to see RDM melee one day? Ask for a real enhancement:
Crank up the En- spells like the old days!!

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Originally Posted by Varchesis

There would be just one less SAM DRK BLU RNG WAR in the party...

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A well geared Rdm already competes (if not beats) all but one or two of those.
I mean when you give examples for DDs why would you list 3 of the worst DDs in the game atm.

You have to realize, there's not just one way to improve Rdm DD. It's perfectly possible to improve it and STILL keep it in the style of the job.

(and are you really complaining about Red Mage's damage when you haven't build a Red Mage DD set O.o)

I'll take En- III with 30~60+ per hit over Dia IV any dang day!! And that's being conservative. Improving RDM melee means hitting harder and/or faster. For RDM that means Enhancing Magic or... enhancing sword/dagger DMG. Not enfeebling magic.

Here are the opposing scenarios:

RDM: "Hey guys, I have Dia IV. We can hit much harder now!"
PT Leader: "Nah, but we can do without Dia IV. RDM hits for crap. We need a DD."
RDM: /cry

=VERSUS=

RDM: "Hey guys, I have En- III. I can hit much harder now!"
PT Leader: "Sweet. That'll work. RDM hits about as hard as other DDs now and can support the party, too."
RDM: "Great! Let me gear up."


Greater En- spell damage. Can I have it?

Dia IV is a bad example considering it's really not that hard to cap attack. Saying that an enfeeble can't work is just not looking at a wide enough scope. For example if we got an enfeeble that caused the monster to take double damage from everything well...Red Mage would likely be the most wanted job. Now obviously that example would be over the top a bit, but enfeebling doesn't necessarily have to mean a defensive effect and it doesn't JUST have to mean defense down. There are weaknesses to enfeebles as well though, mainly that trash monsters die too fast. If a monster dies in 3 seconds that's hardly MP efficient to try and keep an enfeeble on every monster though at the same time you can debate if the increased killing speed at that point is really worth it.

Likewise, Enspells only affect the TP phase which Red Mage has generally NEVER had problems with. Red Mage throughout the history of FFXI has generally been one of the best DoT jobs. It's always been the Weapons Skills that blow us out of the water and it's been those Weapon Skills that always created the huge gap between Red Mage and other DDs (that and leg selection D:). Now with abyssea things have become slightly inverted now. Our Weapon Skills are actually decent but now our TP damage isn't so hot due to our enspells not scaling as well and the fact that we generally are forced to use a lvl 75 dagger in the main hand.

I'm all for T3 Enspells what their effect will be will depend a lot on where the content of FFXI is going imo. If we are going to keep atma then sure, create some broken enspells, but if they ever want to leave abyssea at some point either they will have to balance them so that they are insignificant inside abyssea or that they will have to scale with atma in someway (besides elemental affinity).

Yeah, you're right, Supersun. Blast it all to high heaven.
Blast it all to high heaven!!

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Simply put enspells don't scale in abyssea like everything else does which means unless we get some enspells that scale don't expect them to really contribute that much inside abyssea, because for them to actually do a meaningful amount inside abyssea they would pretty much break the game outside abyssea.

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Depends. I could see enspells scaling with attack power or weapon damage. Granted, weapon damage is not as big a factor in this game as it is in some other games, but is still an option. Enhancing skill could still be treated as a modifier of sorts, but no longer be the sole factor that determines enspell damage.

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RDMs won't complain cause we have some notion of chivalry or fencing or Altana knows what... and the result is RDMs will be haste-healing-refresh slaves forever.

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I disagree. We don't complain because our class is one of the two classes in all of MMOs that embody internal struggle between enthusiasts of different roles. For every one of us who wanted to melee there were 20 who would stomp on us because they were happy with their instant invites to cure/refresh/haste. The facts the devs have favored that crowd without giving the melee enthusiasts much of a glance says quite a bit on its own. Doesn't stop people like me from talking about it, though. =P

As for the fencing thing, that's been part of our theme, and I certainly would want to keep it. As I mentioned elsewhere, we have rapiers, wear tabards and have hats with feathers in them; a magical version of the french musketeers.

That being said, I am a proponent of creating role emphasis depending on what the RDM chooses to do. I don't feel right out-right locking things like magic types, though. I'm more for empowering certain types of actions depending on what role the RDM has chosen to take up.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Our Weapon Skills are actually decent but now our TP damage isn't so hot due to our enspells not scaling as well and the fact that we generally are forced to use a lvl 75 dagger in the main hand.

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Could use one of the two swords that give Chant du Cygne, or could use Twilight Knife.