Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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I'm talking about SMN vs ... not-SMN.

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I'm not. The melee summoner can perform better than the not melee summoner. The fact that this still doesn't bring it to a really competitive level is beyond my control. I am simply trying to get the most out of the Summoner job that I possibly can. Whether that's enough for any non-summoner, I couldn't care less. I only care if it is able to enhance what summoner can do. And it does.

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Yes. But can WAR + SMN duo Orthrus?

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Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could. Obviously it would be too dangerous for the SMN to be up close in this case. But unless you need something that only WHM has, then yes. It's possible.

I am not Dallas. I'm not going to tell you that you can compete with the usual DD jobs. Let it be known, I never once claimed and am not claiming now that this was possible. Please understand this. All -I- am saying is that this broaden's the job's potential a little. It doesn't fix inherent problems with the job, but it does help you get more out of the job with those problems in place. Can you give me that much?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is a contradiction how?

Spirits are NOT viable. The people that use them use them for the same purpose that they would use an avatar- to inflict damage (except with light spirit, of course). However, avatars are vastly superior in every way. This is not a subjective opinion. It's a fact. Spirits do less damage, cost more MP (reduceable to same MP if merited), and are essentially uncontrollable.

I "vailiantly defend" the melee strategy because it works. Total damage output increases. Using spirits instead of avatars is like meleeing with an elemental staff instead of a relic weapon. I do not, however, claim that you'll run circles around normal DDs, like someone else here does. It is just an incrimental improvement over what SMN is already capable of.

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The contradiction was how the two viewpoints on separate matters are attacked by the same mindset. I admit spirits are weak compared to avatars however I don't agree that their "purpose" was to be weak and that they should be left at that.

You dismiss spirits by facts and logic. The same way other's dismiss melee SMN.

As far as Dallas I already have him on a mental /blocklist you could say. I just dislike the personalities that both hates themselves and supports themselves depending on which has the greater return.

The introduction of mythic in my last statement was an admitted mistake. I feel they hold more over the relic/emp staff weapons.

Also I in fact love playing healing but absolutely cannot stand playing whm(and I used to like SCH until the 75 cap was raised). Why is that? I myself am not sure honestly perhaps just my own stubbornness somehow but I love how the normal way of smn is played. I can cure, buff, support, and, though in abyssea, pets that can deal 5k Nukes/45s which are nothing really to brag about in abyssea it certainly doesn't hurt to top it all off with that. Could my group be better off by getting a WHM and WAR to replace me, if they are decently geared, yes. However we thankfully don't have such a curse because we are a small group. Of which the main needed jobs for success are already filled by people that favorite those jobs. And seeing as we prefer fun over absolute effectiveness(subjective) we can take that luxery for what it's worth.

So the normal way of playing smn fits my situated play style almost perfect, the same way melee smn fits situational play styles. Though I personally see normal over melee, I don't go around spouting that as the best way to play the job. I prefer a more "do your own thing" attitude. Unfortunately however not everyone has the same respect and courtesy.

*Cure V's and VI's and shell V totally doesn't exist at all.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm not. The melee summoner can perform better than the not melee summoner. The fact that this still doesn't bring it to a really competitive level is beyond my control. I am simply trying to get the most out of the Summoner job that I possibly can. Whether that's enough for any non-summoner, I could care less.

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could.

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Unless you've never fought Orthrus, you should know that sometimes you do. SMN doesn't have Shell V or Cure V either, and have shit for timers on IV. Really, it's unlikely that they can.

However, I'm glad you concede the point that SMN absolutely can't compare to other jobs. This is not something you have been willing to admit (for very long) for practically this entire thread. Yes, I've said a hundred times now that it's possible for melee to increase the damage potential of Summoner. But no amount of whack-a-mole with a staff is going to make Summoner a half-decent DD in comparison to ... anyone else (which is the only true measurement of being a half decent DD). Thus, Summoner as a whole is not a very viable job choice.

As long as we're cool on the fact that Summoner is bottom of the barrel regardless of whatever increase in efficiency the melee playstyle brings to it, I have no problem here. The same is likely true for the majority of the other posters here. Very few of us have been trying to say that Melee'ing is not an upgrade over not Melee'ing. Simply that it makes little difference in the overall scheme of things when it does not make SMN anything more than #18/20.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And like I keep saying, it DOES improve SMN performance. Melee = better damage, same buffs. Easier to use the buffs. Meleeing decreases your ability to use your avatars buffs by precisely ZERO. It does not affect your ability to use buffs AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NO CHANGE IN EFFECTIVENESS.
I will keep menitoning favor because it is not pointless.Double attack rate? crit rate? stacks with other similar buffs? Far from pointless. The physical damage loss on the avatar is negligible.

You can stop repeating what you're saying now, because it's just plain incorrect. Having your weapon drawn does not mean your buffs get weaker, are harder to use, take longer, or have any detrimental effect on them whatsoever. NOTHING CHANGES. PERIOD.

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There is NO WAY you can keep up the same number of buffs and support the party to near the same degree as me while meleeing. If you're cycling avatars to stack buffs you are not swinging, if you're casting subjob spells to back up the party you are not swinging. If you aren't swinging your staff eventually you'll run out of MP.

Double attack rate? crit rate? yeah these are nice, but aren't they off the less favored DD avatar's and then you add the fact you gimp them EVERYTIME you BP. Why are you so willing to do anything to melee on SMN. Surely the goal is to max out your damage but now you're using weaker avatars to boost your damage with buffs that resent went you BP and even hurt your avatar's damage anyway.

Of course having a weapon drawn won't weaken buffs never said that BUT it severely lowers your ability to support the party purely by the fact you can't melee while casting, which means you have to make a choice between maximizing your melee damage or focusing on casting to back up your team mates. You can't do both or there'd be no such thing as a backline WHM

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I don't agree that their "purpose" was to be weak and that they should be left at that.

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The thing is, spirits have useful purposes. Offense just isn't one of them.

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You dismiss spirits by facts and logic. The same way other's dismiss melee SMN.

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I haven't seen any facts and logic other than comparing the job to a mainline DD and saying it won't perform anywhere near that. Let it be clear: That is not in dispute. This is only about improving the summoner from it's current capacity with the (however problematic) tools currently at our disposal. That is all this is about. Nothing more.

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There is NO WAY you can keep up the same number of buffs and support the party to near the same degree as me while meleeing

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You absolutely can. You do it the same way you did it without your weapon drawn. Having your weapon drawn has zero impact on your ability to press your BP macro or summon a different avatar.
Ordinarily, I would stick to a few buffs which I can easily maintain without having to resummon every 45 seconds. But if you really really want every single summoner buff, sure. I'll do it just as well as any other summoner. I repeat: Being engaged does not affect your ability to cast summons, nor does it affect your ability to press whatever button your BP macro is on.

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Originally Posted by Al

Unless you are needing Cure VIs to stay alive, yes, it could.

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Is this another one of those things that SMN can't do because it's out of your control?

"It's not my fault that the job can't main heal a WAR, Only SE can do something about that"

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The thing is, spirits have useful purposes. Offense just isn't one of them.

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That right there. How do you get to dictate what is their useful purpose? You argument is the same as other's who say melee smn is not smn's purpose.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

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Is this another one of those things that SMN can't do because it's out of your control?

"It's not my fault that the job can't main heal a WAR, Only SE can do something about that"

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You aren't making sense. Come back when you can make an intelligible statement.

I have never tried to duo Orthrus, so I don't really know how much curing capacity is really needed. Thankfully,Razushucovered that in an intelligent civil manner (And I thank him for that). I'm still thinking it would be possible, though probably much more difficult.

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How do you get to dictate what is their useful purpose?

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I didn't dictate their useful purposes. The playerbase, and SQUEENIX, did. SE added the Elemental Siphon ability. There's a use.
Spirits cast fast, so they can be helpful sometimes to get an aggro'd mob off. Light spirit is useful for being able to give you higher tier pro/shell among other things. So you're saying that I'm the first person to say they are useful for these things?

Let's go over spirits for damage, shall we? The spirits have no magic attack bonus, so their nukes are inferior to anyone else who can cast the same spell. Second, they have some spells you probably don't want them to cast, and it chooses the spell mostly at random (doesn't choose elemental debuffs or enfeebles if the mob already has them). Third, they have no durability, and cannot be controlled. I'm not an authority on the entire game, but those facts SOUND to me like they'd make for inferior combat ability to avatars, which are capable of higher damage. The only real advantage to using spirits to nuke that I can see off-hand, is the small chance that you could get abyssea procs with them.

Trying to use my logic against me doesn't make the statements above less valid.

It makes perfect sense if you've ever played SMN in a healing capacity, or been on a DD job that is capable of pulling hate.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You aren't making sense. Come back when you can make an intelligible statement.

I have never tried to duo Orthrus, so I don't really know how much curing capacity is really needed. Thankfully,Razushucovered that in an intelligent civil manner (And I thank him for that). I'm still thinking it would be possible, though probably much more difficult.

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Thanks for the compliment.Forgive me for this:

Who knows perhaps in another time, another place we could've been friends.

I have always wanted to say that to someone.

Now back to the discussion at hand

I wouldn't rule that out. So we have a disagreement about something. It's not the end of the world. I respect you for adressing things properly, without personal attacks or superlatives.

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Why are you so willing to do anything to melee on SMN.

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I'm not, and I'm sick of you and others painting me as If I do this all the time, every minute on SMN. Often I have a specific purpose for being on the job. If I'm absolutely needed for one specific reason, then I'm going to do the best I can in performing that purpose.

This is not an all the time thing. It is for when you want to focus on damage. You can still buff (and Ifrit is not a bad avatar to have out, the new enfire is pretty good and the Warcry effect is okay as well, though I wish it lasted a lot longer- The same sort of thing goes for ramuh, but since ifrit's enspell effect is better, ramuh is basically depreciated now)

Focusing on healing, damaging without any potential for hate disruption, and full-on support are all still all just as effective as always. Maximizing DD capability can sometimes be an ideal strategy. Sometimes it's not. I think this adds something to summoner (I will go along with the term "sidegrade", because it's reasonably appropriate). It's not a replacement for being able to do everything else that SMN can do, however.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I wouldn't rule that out. So we have a disagreement about something. It's not the end of the world. I respect you for adressing things properly, without personal attacks or superlatives.

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I just couldn't resist. The same here it's nice to get actual feedback rather than whatever it is that Dallas does. Also your sig is awesome

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I just couldn't resist. The same here it's nice to get actual feedback rather than whatever it is that Dallas does. Also your sig is awesome

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Oh, Dallas just proclaims himself as God and expects you to worship him.

Personally, I would just ignore his rants.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Oh, Dallas just proclaims himself as God and expects you to worship him.

Personally, I would just ignore his rants.

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It really furstrates me to have anyone put me in the same group with him. I am passionate about what I do, but I don't look at anyone who does something different and call them gimp.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It really furstrates me to have anyone put me in the same group with him. I am passionate about what I do, but I don't look at anyone who does something different and call them gimp.

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Don't worry I don't think anyone puts you in the same group as him.

And I don't think anyones calling anyone gimp except the non-SMNs and Dallas, unless you're calling me gimp and it's whooshing me :D

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're an idiot, because the point isn't to be the best. It's to be better than oneself could have been.

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Clarification: The "could have beens," for all the FFXI impaired BG evacuees, are all you subpar SMN who only know how to use Alexander.

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And I don't think anyones calling anyone gimp except the non-SMNs and Dallas, unless you're calling me gimp and it's whooshing me :D

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absolutely not.

Try to remmeber, I am only posing this as an alternate playstyle. Not the end-all best way to play the job. There are times when it can be better, and there are also plenty of not-so-much times.

Edited for quotation

Al, anyone can play gimp when the situation calls for gimp. Look at Byrth and GG. Do you think they can't figure out how to take their naked SMNs in and use Alex's 2hr?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

absolutely not.

Try to remmeber, I am only posing this as an alternate playstyle. Not the end-all best way to play the job. There are times when it can be better, and there are also plenty of not-so-much times.

Edited for quotation

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I see that, I can see the benefits of both styles(the melee side a little clearer now). They both have ups and downs and it seems that they both balance out fairly well when the circumstances allow.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Clarification: The "could have beens," for all the FFXI impaired BG evacuees, are all you subpar SMN who only know how to use Alexander.

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Clarification: The Savior has spoke. Bow down to him or suffer the wrath of his gimp comments directed towards you.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I see that, I can see the benefits of both styles(the melee side a little clearer now). They both have ups and downs and it seems that they both balance out fairly well when the circumstances allow.

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Absolutely nothing wrong with melee summoners at all, when they can pull it off.

But they lose a lot of solo ability doing so, that is another problem that needs to be solved.

Question: If it makes non-Dallas SMNs gimp by not melee'ing for the minor added damage boost it would offer, how gimp does it make Dallas for not using a job with an Empyrean that can do over 5x the damage an Empyrean SMN can?

Wait, there's two melee SMNs? This thread could only be more awesome if it had ninjas throwing stuff in it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Question: If it makes non-Dallas SMNs gimp by not melee'ing for the minor added damage boost it would offer, how gimp does it make Dallas for not using a job with an Empyrean that can do over 5x the damage an Empyrean SMN can?

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Don't know, probably as gimp as wasting the upgrade items it took to get it to 85 and 90 which could have been used for anything else, even flooring the items themselves.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Wait, there's two melee SMNs? This thread could only be more awesome if it had ninjas throwing stuff in it.

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No, what would make this more awesome is by having an anti-cheater say that non-melee summoners are cheating when they do as good damage as a melee summoner does.

Starcade was banned, though.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Question: If it makes non-Dallas SMNs gimp by not melee'ing for the minor added damage boost it would offer, how gimp does it make Dallas for not using a job with an Empyrean that can do over 5x the damage an Empyrean SMN can?

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I'm glad you committed to a number. Your shame will be delicious.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Starcade was banned, though.

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Damn.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm glad you committed to a number. Your shame will be delicious.

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How long before you can photoshop or fake a parse to show you outdamage a Ukon WAR?

Oh okay. Pull up a math-whiz. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of overall damage between a Ukonvasara WAR/SAM and a Hver SMN/SAM using Garuda and P claws, holding TP to 300% for Mykrr. Both jobs can have March+3 x2, Haste spell, Haste Samba, and Red Curry Buns, aka sustainable buff conditions for a group that doesn't suck. I assume SS RR Apoc or VV RR Apoc for the WAR, whichever is stronger. VV RR Apoc for the SMN? Or is there something better?

Byrth or Raen or someone similarly inclined mind running something like this out?

Edit: Does a level 95 monster with 420 defense and 85 VIT sound about right?

Apoc does little to nothing for Pred Claws. VV/SS/RR works very well.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Oh okay. Pull up a math-whiz. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of overall damage between a Ukonvasara WAR/SAM and a Hver SMN/SAM using Garuda and P claws, holding TP to 300% for Mykrr. Both jobs can have March+3 x2, Haste spell, Haste Samba, and Red Curry Buns, aka sustainable buff conditions for a group that doesn't suck. I assume SS RR Apoc or VV RR Apoc for the WAR, whichever is stronger. VV RR Apoc for the SMN? Or is there something better?

Byrth or Raen or someone similarly inclined mind running something like this out?

Edit: Does a level 95 monster with 420 defense and 85 VIT sound about right?

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You might as well make the atmas the same also, just to show the true difference between the two jobs.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Absolutely nothing wrong with melee summoners at all, when they can pull it off.

But they lose a lot of solo ability doing so, that is another problem that needs to be solved.

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You don't lose anything... Pet kiting is still your friend; It's not like I threw away my other staves or anything. I can still use it when necessary.

Personally, I find SMN in this situation to be great at gathering light. The weapon skill you're using doesn't do direct damage, thus you cannot cause ruby, no matter what you're fighting. And All blood pacts give pearl light, so you can spike down a mob and still get pearl. You also have a good magic WS in Cataclysm, that still does enough damage without being boosted to be able to get the amber lights. It's no Cleave or Charged Whisker, of course, but it can still be helpful on occasion.

This sticks out in Tahrongi, where most of the normal mobs do not give Amber (except the most unfriendly ones). So, my group usually has me go over to the turtles or hunt the tier 1s to get amber while they farm cockatrice or cats (Was going to say something else, but that's kind of inapproprate lol) with AoE spam to get lots of chests. Sure, I'm hardly the only one who can do that- but it worked pretty nicely for us.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You might as well make the atmas the same also, just to show the true difference between the two jobs.

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I'd rather the atmas be whatever's ideal for the job. I don't want any wiggle room for technicalities.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Oh okay. Pull up a math-whiz. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of overall damage between a Ukonvasara WAR/SAM and a Hver SMN/SAM using Garuda and P claws, holding TP to 300% for Mykrr. Both jobs can have March+3 x2, Haste spell, Haste Samba, and Red Curry Buns, aka sustainable buff conditions for a group that doesn't suck. I assume SS RR Apoc or VV RR Apoc for the WAR, whichever is stronger. VV RR Apoc for the SMN? Or is there something better?



Byrth or Raen or someone similarly inclined mind running something like this out?

Edit: Does a level 95 monster with 420 defense and 85 VIT sound about right?

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I don't think anyone with a mental level above that of a desk lamp is saying SMN can out DD a WAR

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You don't lose anything... Pet kiting is still your friend; It's not like I threw away my other staves or anything. I can still use it when necessary.

Personally, I find SMN in this situation to be great at gathering light. The weapon skill you're using doesn't do direct damage, thus you cannot cause ruby, no matter what you're fighting. And All blood pacts give pearl light, so you can spike down a mob and still get pearl. You also have a good magic WS in Cataclysm, that still does enough damage without being boosted to be able to get the amber lights. It's no Cleave or Charged Whisker, of course, but it can still be helpful on occasion.

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No, you misunderstood.

I'm stating that you can't solo NMs while meleeing them, because you lose the viability of either pet kite or pet tank.

I mean, sure, there are some NMs where it wouldn't hurt to melee (Brooder, the T2 in La Theine comes to mind) but there are some that it would be detrimental for you to melee at all (Chloris, or Chione comes to mind here). I'm not stating that you have Dallas's state of mind where its melee or GTFO, but there are situations where meleeing = death. Lots of situations like that.

It's really not necessary- I already know that even at our absolute maximum capacity, we cannot compete with a WAR like that. If you're trying to convince Dallas, that will never happen, he's just too blind.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I don't think anyone with a mental level above that of a desk lamp is saying SMN can out DD a WAR

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It's too bad we have someone in here with the mental level below a desk lamp, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'd rather the atmas be whatever's ideal for the job. I don't want any wiggle room for technicalities.

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Then remove all atma AND buffs outside what the job gan give itself. Pets don't benefit from party buffs, which is why you specifically set it up the way you did.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'd rather the atmas be whatever's ideal for the job. I don't want any wiggle room for technicalities.

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Too late for that. If you keep the atmas the same Dallas would state that he wasn't given the atmas he would have choosen, and if the atmas benefited the job individually Dallas would state that the atmas determined the difference, not the job.

Edit: But then again, he pulls one on us and tries to make him look good by taking away the only viable way that a SMN can melee effectively. So he can state that the difference is negligible because it deals with situations outside of Abyssea and it is in Abyssea he really shines.

Korpg, you aren't qualified to speak for me. You aren't close.