[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

Yes I don't use Skype and have no interest in it.

Usssse ieeeeeeet.

Even just among the people in your party it makes things so much smoother, being able to talk with them. It's actually even better in getting to know the individual behind the game, their mood, etc. So much more is communicated with voice and a great deal quicker than typing out ever could.

And it really does streamline teamwork, which flatly bypasses a lot of timing/trust issues.

I used to use it but it made no real difference for me, so I don't anymore, that's really it (actually, it doesn't help the two people who got me using it quit the game). For the current lowman group I run with I know two irl and typically don't have issues with dealing with sitatuons without it. The only time I've had an issue is when I've said afk and someone didn't catch it for some reason, or they must have seriously thought I was going to fight mobs while weakened.

Voice chat makes me slower and distracts me.

Personal ability varies, some people really CANT walk and chew gum. Im an xbox360 player for other games than ffxi, so for me, mic communication is very fluid for me as is typing out my thoughts, but i agree that for me i can talk much clearer than i can type under heavy dangerous nm work loads.

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Originally Posted by Swords

That and like I pointed out in an older post, jobs are only complex as you make them out to be. Any RDM who has pride in their efforts know damn well it can be the hardest job to maintain at an efficient level because of it's capacity to do so much. RDM however does needs time to cast their very extensive list of spells to become efficient and worthwhile which works well in long fights, BLU's strength lies in zerg tactics (magic or melee) dealing out massive damage as quickly as possible. Conversely, BLU's lack mp efficiency and tends to run out quickly (and die quickly from hate spikes) making it difficult in long fights, RDM on the other hand have slow nukes with spike damage a good league behind dedicated nukers and with monsters dieing within 30 seconds more than half our spells become pointless to cast which reduces our optimalness significantly in zerg situations.

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Your playing it wrong, depending on what a BLU is doing, we do not lack MP efficiency, hence Battery Charge, and depending on where, atmas. I never run out of MP, and only those that are not paying attention or do not realize hate generation pull hate and die. Its called learn to Occultation/Shadow, if you are dying either your party sucks, or you suck. Especially since I have an Epona's Ring and a Atheling mantle for my TP set up, stop wasting so much MP, and let yourself hit the mob. Build that TP for stronger hits with C.A.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

Gear dictates what jobs do?! Oh that explains this.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/231396

Makes perfect sense now. I see just how things work, thanks for enlightening me Scuro.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

No, because RDM is a Buffer/Healer/Nuker class, with the CAPABILITY to solo DD and should not rival BLU, or else it would make the class irrelevant and a waste of designer time. This is why RDM does not get our DD WSs natively and why they are given a sword skill too low to rival our own. They also receive no native DD traits, therefore, it is not a DD class of any sort. The point of being a DD is that you are given traits or the capability to receive traits that enhance your DD capability. As most RDMs in this thread know, I'm the one that comes in when the post with a crown on it get s posted in. Hi, I'm Scuro, and I'll be putting out this fire today. BTW Shiyo a pleasure as always to see you fighting the good fight haha.

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You must sink a lot, because your dense, I said that Job Traits of a DD form dictate the job, last I checked, BRD has none. While it is capable for great DD gear (ironically enough) it still has no Job traits, next time when you post, do read. Notice how I said nothing about having gear with DD stats.

What the job needs is new enfeebs and new buffs, ones that will set it apart from other opposing jobs. Now that it has lost a great enfeeble spell to WHM, its going to need to make up some of that lost ground. I still have no idea why they let WHM have that. That is what is needed from the class.

P.S
Skype is awesome, it enhances group coordination, and speeds communication between players allowing you to talk and keep doing what you are doing, rather then typing and reducing reaction time.

Brd may lack the job traits, but lets be real here, in a lot of cases those same job traits can be earned from sub-job, and brd can also substantially buff themselves to make up those magical missing traits. For someone who slings the "you must be dense" comment, you sure are narrowminded if you assume that jobs only have one or two purposes or abilities, and it is these same reasons drk K-club zergs, rdm chainspell stuns, and other well known tactics were developed, and saying that gear has no effect on something like that is completely wrong. Granted i did missread your statement, but the same jobtraits you cling to in many cases do very little baring some exceptions. But to humor you lets look at these traits.

Fencer, brd gets it, but im sure that is not counted as one of your DD traits, dispite it raising crit rate while single wielding, so yank that sword (which should be offhanded, but AH is a bit picky about slot placement) off and keep the rest of the gear or stack their equally impressive dex gear for evisceration.

Critical Defense Bonus. Sure its not a damage dealing trait, but it is a frontline trait. Once again, brd gets it.

Resist silence. Granted not a melee trait, but allows them to buff themselves.

Now lets look at some of the other argueably "DD" jobs.

BST.
-Killer traits
-Widescan
-Fencer
-Stout servant
-Resist Slow

Im sure those killer traits make it more DD related than brd. Im sure it has nothing to do with its gear and weapon choices. Course thats assuming bst is only designed to melee itself, not wear pet related gear at times to enhance their pet.

Lets escalate this some though and look at a much more recognized DD job.

Warrior
-Defense bonus 2 (22 DEF)
-Double attack
-Attack bonus 1 (10 ATT)
-Resist Virus
-Fencer
-Critical attack bonus
-Shield mastery
-Shield Defense Bonus

No argueing that war is more skilled, or a better damage dealer, but those traits you cling to, brd can sub war to get half of them that wont impact its main job. Including its double attack.

As for its attack bonus or defense bonus, or accuracy.
-Valor Minuet V grants upwards of 72 attack.
-Knight's MinneV grants up to 60 defense.
-Blade Madrigal gives 30 accuracy.

SO while lacking the native traits, it can get superior to the very traits you specify through sub and 2-3 buffs, and can gear like a DD, is it a DD? Nope, can it be one? Sure. Could the same to an even greater extent be given to any job at any time via JA, JT, MA, or other source causing the jobs to deal more than any other DD? Its unlikely, but its not impossible in a virtual fictional world. Get off your high horse and stop weighing in on things that extend outside your narrow field of perception.

If someone is dense cause of their reasoning that a job without native traits can DD, then you must be just as dense. Blu passive traits are -not- native and are generally weaker than what other jobs with the native traits get. This includes what any Subjob will give you in the form of these very same traits. Not to mention most of them are only Tier I (or in the case of DA -I) with only a few reaching Tier II (DW, MP bonus, HP bonus) and only one going higher (Clear mind), but still unable to reach the upper-most tier. If Crimson is dense, you must be two times as dense and sinking into the abyss faster. Either that or you don't even know a thing about the job that is your main and just need something to cry/poke/troll about.

The ability to be a DD, or even perform DD as a back-up comes from the gear available to the job along with buffs from Subjob, Primary job, and other sources including spell combinations on blu creating passive traits. I'll say it one more time: Blu does not get any passive traits natively and they are generally weaker than what as Subjob will give them. Thus your argument from this point of view is hurting you more than it is helping you, Scuro.

To clarify - Native implies that through no actions other than the representative level of the job the trait will appear. It can not be removed in any way, shape, or form aside from dropping below the prescribed level at which it is gained. Thus blu does not get any passive trait natively since they all come from Subjob, Spell combination, and merit options.

This means that any job that is capable of using a subjob to gain said traits, have access to DD gear, food, and other source enhancements (Spells, rolls, songs, atma) is capable of DD in a back-up role. Try reading yourself instead of contradicting yourself and using blind logic.

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Slasher

Brd may lack the job traits, but lets be real here, in a lot of cases those same job traits can be earned from sub-job, and brd can also substantially buff themselves to make up those magical missing traits. For someone who slings the "you must be dense" comment, you sure are narrowminded if you assume that jobs only have one or two purposes or abilities, and it is these same reasons drk K-club zergs, rdm chainspell stuns, and other well known tactics were developed, and saying that gear has no effect on something like that is completely wrong. Granted i did missread your statement, but the same jobtraits you cling to in many cases do very little baring some exceptions. But to humor you lets look at these traits.

Fencer, brd gets it, but im sure that is not counted as one of your DD traits, dispite it raising crit rate while single wielding, so yank that sword (which should be offhanded, but AH is a bit picky about slot placement) off and keep the rest of the gear or stack their equally impressive dex gear for evisceration.

Critical Defense Bonus. Sure its not a damage dealing trait, but it is a frontline trait. Once again, brd gets it.

Resist silence. Granted not a melee trait, but allows them to buff themselves.

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Oh yes and because I'm sure DRK is totally rocking the sh*t out of Tactical parry right? And I'm sure you RDM's love shield mastry right? Although the majority of RDMs that are wanting to DD 85% of the time prefer dual wield. And hot damn, WHM has some sexy shield defense, must mean they are a front line job too! Wow I must of gotten my FFXI knowledge out of a cracker jack box cuz I sure feel stupid..... No, not at all, ever. Dude seriously, thats cool and all, but again, just because they have those traits, doesn't mean its supposed to actually be used religiously, I mean honestly... how many DRKs do you see parry? And also your statement that it can sub and be a DD and receive traits.... No, they are weaker because they are subbed, and a WHM/WAR apparently can DD, or a SMN/DRK can melee it up, with that kind of twisted logic there would be just death. Just because you can sub DD traits, doesn't make you a DD, or else every job could be a DD, and while I'm sure some of them can manage or give it a good try for some situations, jobs have their socket, and it is up to the player to apply them to the right one rather then trying to put a square peg in a circle slot with the logic that ramming it hard enough will eventually make it fit.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

If someone is dense cause of their reasoning that a job without native traits can DD, then you must be just as dense. Blu passive traits are -not- native and are generally weaker than what other jobs with the native traits get. This includes what any Subjob will give you in the form of these very same traits. Not to mention most of them are only Tier I (or in the case of DA -I) with only a few reaching Tier II (DW, MP bonus, HP bonus) and only one going higher (Clear mind), but still unable to reach the upper-most tier. If Crimson is dense, you must be two times as dense and sinking into the abyss faster. Either that or you don't even know a thing about the job that is your main and just need something to cry/poke/troll about.

The ability to be a DD, or even perform DD as a back-up comes from the gear available to the job along with buffs from Subjob, Primary job, and other sources including spell combinations on blu creating passive traits. I'll say it one more time: Blu does not get any passive traits natively and they are generally weaker than what as Subjob will give them. Thus your argument from this point of view is hurting you more than it is helping you, Scuro.

To clarify - Native implies that through no actions other than the representative level of the job the trait will appear. It can not be removed in any way, shape, or form aside from dropping below the prescribed level at which it is gained. Thus blu does not get any passive trait natively since they all come from Subjob, Spell combination, and merit options.

This means that any job that is capable of using a subjob to gain said traits, have access to DD gear, food, and other source enhancements (Spells, rolls, songs, atma) is capable of DD in a back-up role. Try reading yourself instead of contradicting yourself and using blind logic.

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Now *cracks knuckles* for hater Numero Dos! You obviously don't read fine print, which is why you think that RDM can actually DD, but its ok, I'll humor you. Yes we do receive Tier 1's, grats, but hell, thats at least tier 1 that doesn't come out of a subjob, and can be applied to subjobs that other jobs don't have the pleasure for. I mean if I really want to get the perks of dual wield, yes I'm obviously going to sub NIN or DNC, but if I want to apply it to other things for niche reasons, I can do that. Also your supposidly witty comment about a statement you don't know anything about, if you actually took the time to fully read it, they actually say about the Double Attack trait that (We didn't change anything), which implies that the calculation that was originally thought for WAR's native Double attack is actually inaccurate. Feel free to read it again, I would dig up the link, but its not really worth my time seeing as how its already been clarified amongst the BLU community.

Also because your argument is just so much fun to shread up, I'm going to play with your idea that "BLU has no native traits because they can be removed!" Ya, its called the system of the class, /slowclap, I'm glad you caught on to it. So what you are trying to say to me, is that a PUP isn't considered a healer when it has the WHM head frame because it can be removed? /applaud you are fantastic! That a SCH doesn't have Nuking or healing spells because it has to be under certain Addenda in order to use? /applaud You are a GENIUS! How could I be so blind!?.... I couldn't even keep a straight face.... I mean seriously, that was the most emphasized sarcasm I could preform and I'm glad you could be apart of this entertainment. Again Kitkat, your logic is a pleasure as always, and I salute you sir /slowclap

What do you class Temper and Enspells if not to increase melee? What about Composure with increased Enhancement duration and 15 Accuracy?

Are they a DD? Hell no! But you're completely wrong if you think SE don't want RDM to melee in some instances with the gear coming out, the weapons and the Weapon Skill adjustments they clearly do.

You're fear of RDM beating BLU is misplaced.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

What do you class Temper and Enspells if not to increase melee? What about Composure with increased Enhancement duration and 15 Accuracy?

Are they a DD? Hell no! But you're completely wrong if you think SE don't want RDM to melee in some instances with the gear coming out, the weapons and the Weapon Skill adjustments they clearly do.

You're fear of RDM beating BLU is misplaced.

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The intention of a RDM meleeing was stated at level 16 with the spell "Enthunder". A self cast only spell that deals thunder elemental damage upon each melee strike. SE wasn't thinking of SCH or SMN or anyone else when they designed Enthunder.

Now for "melee" we have,

Enspells
Gain-spells (both melee and mage buffs)
Temper

SE has pretty much made it clear their intentions, the fact that people continue to put on blinders is a testiment to the authenticity of the Cognitive Dissonance theory.

What a wonderful troll you are Scuro. You have the tenacity to take anything that has any basis and turn it around using blind logic. It is almost believable.....aside from the fact you are basically just proving a point I made several post ago about how a job fits into various roles depending on situation and subjob. Thank you for walking into the corner as expected by stating the very points that have already been said to you about the job. I knew all I had to do was post about something that is so plainly obvious just to get you to realize how screwed up your own logic is since all you can do is apply it to blu, but not to a job you don't even play because you can only see what you want to about a job you don't even play.

Well, now that you've pretty much contradicted yourself...again, the debate with you is over. Your own arrogance is your downfall when it comes to anything in comparison to blu, yet you can't look at the very same reasons blu would change its spell set, subjob, or gear for to fit another role and apply it to rdm. Then again your rdm is 47, so what real experience with the job can you put behind it? Since all you can do is cry and complain about blu, why don't you stay in the blu forums where you contradict yourself just as much. Yes, you do contradict yourself ~pats your head~ It's ok, arrogance does that.

Edit: By the way, I pulled up the information posted by Camate in the Blu forums stating it was not all encompassing of Double attack trait, just the Blu spell combination that creates the trait as stated here. The misconception of blu DA trait being 10% came from the assumption it was equal to war double attack which has been proven to be 10%.

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• Double Attack

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Changing the double attack from 10% and upgrading to 5% triple attack is silly.
Is the double attack effect now lowered to 5% due to a bug?

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It pains me to tell you this, as I don’t want to be the destroyer of dreams or anything like that, but the double attack trait gained by combination of blue spells isn’t 10% like everyone thinks…it’s actually closer to 7%. (We didn’t change anything FYI)

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Edit2:
To further prove that you don't know how to interpret information here is a kparse of rdm/war with no other double attack gear on to show that war DA trait is infact 10%. So yes, only blu da is 7% not all da traits. Also, temper was not, nor could not, be used during this test as my Rdm was 91 during this test.

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Melee Data

Player # Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
Kaliyah 1216 1106 1 110

Player # +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
Kaliyah 110 0 0 0 0

Player # MultiAttack Rounds MultiAttack % Kills w/Min Attacks Kills w/<Min Attacks
Kaliyah 110 9.95 % 0 0


Treat As:

Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x):

Player # Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
Kaliyah 110 9.95 % 100.00 % 0 0.00 % 0.00 %

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How to interpret (since blank space is auto removed):

Player: Kaliyah
Number or attacks per round based on weapon: 1
Attack Rounds: 1106
Actual attacks: 1216
Extra Attacks: 110
Double attack rate: 9.95%

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Originally Posted by Scuro

And hot damn, WHM has some sexy shield defense, must mean they are a front line job too!

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Why are you so afraid of people having fun and occasionally getting to smack things?

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Originally Posted by Scuro

No, they are weaker because they are subbed, and a WHM/WAR apparently can DD

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Most White Mages who take up arms rely on Clubs, and as such usually sub either Ninja or Dancer. Sub warrior is much less common. I won't say it isn't viable, since Staff styles and relying on Fencer are somewhat slightly more possible with Double Attack, but it is slightly less possible then a Red Mage's choices (I'm inclined to believe that /WAR and /DRK are just as valid as /NIN and /DNC with Red Mage, since Red Mage has about equal proficiency with Sword and Dagger - although many Red Mages complain about this, I think it fits Red Mage well in the jack of all trades role).

Again, I wouldn't be afraid of Red Mage melee. Blue Mages probably have the most role choices of any class, so even if Blue Mages were suddenly told to get in the back because people thought it was more efficient, it could fill those roles too.

I don't think anyone wanted to melee on jobs arrogantly viewed as incapable of those things doesn't want any more then more options to play on that particular job, or even just a way to augment their current capabilities. I don't need to cite legendary players who fought things solo while sometimes augmenting their job's capabilities with melee to make this point.

Kitkat your wrong because it has been stated that WAR's DA is equal, and that the calculation was off, but hey keep spinning around in your circles. Its funny that you make it sound like you are twisting me and such when in truth, you just sound ignorant and I can't help myself but to squash your ethics.

Also Economizer the reason why is because I believe certain jobs were designed for it, and when the jobs were 75, RDM was a beast, and almost a rediculous god job for what it could do. It was able to solo NMs that no other job could, and was a job nobody would want to fight in a PVP because of how dirty it could be. Then came BLU and was always trying to compete with RDM, while it would actually be the DD that RDM could never be due to community aesthetic. RDM was still able to cast a shadow on the skill and purpose that is a BLU. Now RDM has been reduced to lower then competition for a BLU in the DD field, and thats how it should be. As stated by the manifesto, BLU is to the true jack of all trades, and I'll see it through. As some RDMs know, I only post on DD RDM related posts, and I post only if they hit red or get on the front page. Because I don't want SE to waste its time with stupid ideas, and actually focus on what the job does good, namely enfeebling. It would be nice to see them get a big boost in buffing like it has stated, but we'll see how it plays out. Til that happens, I'll be here putting out fires.

The play you are talkinga bout Economy is for fun, and for d*cking around, not for real NMs, and that is the point.

No one would Melee on a hard mob in the same sense a BLU (Ultimate TP feeder) would get kicked from the party if he tried too.

Is that so? Where is your Data? How about a source? Really, if you're going to state something at least have the sense to back it up. All you're doing right now is moving your fingers and producing basically nothing to quash or prove else wise. I produced recorded data as of this morning with no other DA gear on and using the job as Sub to show that Merits were not a factor and a main that does not otherwise get any other traits that would produce extra attacks.

Show you're more than a troll for once, get the data with a sample larger in scale than the one I used. If what you say is true than someone somewhere has produced the data to prove the statement.

I've already supplied the proof in what the DEV said that they did not change anything when they gave BLU the trait. Therefore its obvious that the calculations are more rounded then they are hardline. Also the conversation around DD things for RDM is over, so well... I have no other reason to post in this, not to mention the dude that made the poll post, is making my job easier so I don't have much to concern myself with.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

I've already supplied the proof in what the DEV said that they did not change anything when they gave BLU the trait. Therefore its obvious that the calculations are more rounded then they are hardline. Also the conversation around DD things for RDM is over, so well... I have no other reason to post in this, not to mention the dude that made the poll post, is making my job easier so I don't have much to concern myself with.

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Current BG consensus after exhaustive testing is that BLU TA is 5% and DA is 7%.

Camate also very specifically said that the BLU DA rate was 7%, in the post both linked to and quoted by Kit.

Do you even read posts before responding to them?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

Best part is Camate specifically states it is the spell combination trait, not all DA traits and that the blu trait was never 10% to begin with. I also supplied additional data to show that DA from /war is 10% with a sample exceeding 1000 rounds which is typically accepted as relevant. I can go to 2000, or even 10000, and I can bet right now the data will not change; it will still be within the tolerable error acceptance range of 10%.

Also, this is applicable to the discussion of rdm melee cause you stated that a subjob can't dictate the capability to DD just because it gives the job something it can't get normally. The side track testing was to show that information I brought to the table about blu passive traits being weaker, unable to scale higher, and the few that could cause DD changes in the blu's spell line up since they have limited set points and limited slots. This means they can't get these "key DD traits" without sacrificing something else. This is exactly what a Rdm has to do in order to gain back-up DD capabilities. Without the proper subs, yes rdm melee is somewhat lacking, but rdm can also tank and, long before Blu was a twinkle in SE's eye for FFXI, we were kiting Kirin around for non-zerg LS. Hell I was doing that as /whm and after spell enmity nerf I did it as /war. Avesta solo'd gods without the need for Melee, does that mean SE needs to nerf our magic too? I'm honestly trying to see why you think increasing Enfeebling/mage aspects only, won't make it so that a Rdm will go out and be the new Avesta again and with much greater ease.

Also, your misconception about rdm meleeing things in the past, solo, that other jobs couldn't was due to an issue with Utsusemi, nothing that had to do with Rdm exactly. Know how I know? I was around back then and did the same thing. After they nerfed/fixed utsusemi a lot of those NM's couldn't be solo'd in that manner anymore. I suggest you do some research about that before you bring it up as ammunition for your side of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

Also, your misconception about rdm meleeing things in the past, solo, that other jobs couldn't was due to an issue with Utsusemi, nothing that had to do with Rdm exactly. Know how I know? I was around back then and did the same thing. After they nerfed/fixed utsusemi a lot of those NM's couldn't be solo'd in that manner anymore. I suggest you do some research about that before you bring it up as ammunition for your side of the argument.

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I'm not sure what nerf you are talking about in particular (please clarify), but I was under the impression that for casting Utsusemi, Red Mage is the second best job due to large amounts of Fast Cast. If evading hits didn't matter, Red Mage would probably always win out on /NIN due to a mix of Magic Defense Bonus and Fast Cast.

I think they're talking about the original utsu nerf when it only took one shadow no matter the attack (including meteor from KB).

Back during the initial release of Ninja and Utsusemi, shadows would absorb AOE and multi-hit attacks and would only count it as 1 shadow. Goblin rush, 3 strike attack, 1 shadow. It was during CoP that this was changed and multi-hit attacks would take more than one shadow as well as AOE would either remove or take 1-3 shadows based on Parry skill checks. Additionally, some attacks would now ignore utsusemi and deal direct damage without removing or even checking shadows. SE saw this as unbalanced and corrected it since it made Pld tank obsolete, turned nin into a far superior tank, and rdm/nin was capable of soloing ground HNM such as serket with relative ease due the the ability to negate extreme aoe attacks. This was roughly back in 04 or 05.

my level 61 WHM heals better then my 90 RDM. That ain't right.

That is mainly cause Rdm is a backup/filler healer not primary. The whm native spell list grants them all the required spells to status cure and restore HP to a player and themselves. Rdm does not get more than Tier II regen and Tier IV cure natively and must sub whm to gain status cures and curaga spells. Rdm was not ment for this as quoted in their original form (this is from the users manual published in 2003):

White mage: Experts in whit magic that specialize in healing and recovery spells. Weak in close combat, and prohibited from using blade weapons.

Red Mages: Capable of using both white and black magic; adept at swordsmanship. However, red mages take far longer to master powerful spells than white or black mages due to their broad range of abilities.

I would certainly say far longer as it took nearly 20 levels to be able to use Tier IV from black mage, 32 before we got Regen II, and almost 40 to learn Riase II. Gotta say though, not seeing the adept at swordmanship part too well. We do get a B rating, same as war, but lack access to certain weaponskills (some of which don't make much of any sense). Out of 95 levels worth of equipment we only have about a handful that really enhances any aspects of rdm's unique melee capabilities (C. Fluerete, E. Sword, Hollow earring with extra dmg/effects under Enspell effect).

In contrast Rdm has gained a very expansive gear choice for mage specific play, but very little in gear choice for melee to give it a unique place within a back-up role. SE has maintained a very strict enforcement on the scaling of enspell/phalanx/Aquaviel/Gain-spells also making it difficult to be better in this area of capabilities of a rdm. Granted more gear has just been added, but will require a good deal of hoop jumping and luck/acceptance for a rdm to aquire this piece over someone else that can wear it also. I wouldn't mind seeing more gear that enhances rdm ability to melee when under the effect of certain spells, but I'm not expecting a totally reworked change. Just a way to balance out the initial vision of rdm; to give it the choice to do more than just stand there all the time.

The 2003 user's manual doesn't count for much. You should feel bad for trying to use it to support your argument.

Not supporting the argument so much as showing that rdm was never ment to be a primary role. It only goes to show that either mage or melee preference the job will never fit a primary role because it was not meant to. It was built to be a hybrid job; unable to be a primary mage or primary melee, but capable of filling the role in a back-up sense. Therefor it doesn't hurt what I've already said and only shows why I support some enhancement to melee, but not a complete reform to the ability to melee.

If you want I can even quote POL's definition of Rdm: These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

It shouldn't take Rdm over 48 levels to get a new healing spell.

I don't give a crap if WHM is supposed to be a healer or not. I should not be able to outheal my 90RDM with my 61 WHM. Ever. At all.

I could go without seeing C5 on RDM, but at least make healing magic actually apply to healing spells. It is stupid that my 61WHM can heal for 200-300 more HP then my 90RDM.

And how you can argue otherwise is beyond me.

If your Whm at 61 is curing 200-300 more using the same cure spells it isn't the fault of the magic it is the fault of the user not having cure potency gear. The only way a Whm surpasses a 90 rdm at 61 is via Cure V which you negated as a point stating you can do without it. Even at both being 90 the difference isn't that great between the same tier Cures since healing skill hardly increases amount cured. The greatest difference comes in the terms of Cure potency and the fact that Whm actually has Merits, gear, and passive traits to make cure cast faster and more mp efficiently.

So without counting Cure V or VI, since you yourself negated them already, the overall difference is (I may be forgetting some gear here) is now 2% potency difference assuming 50% potency cap, and roughly 6hp difference worth of skill and possible ~30-40hp via +mnd/vit? I'm sorry I'm failing to see your point here after you negated Cure V as a viable remedy. Additional negation of higher tier Cure spells in exchange for a passive or JA that increases the potency beyond that cap causes further issues than it remedies due to still being stuck with Cure IV and lower due to increasing Enmity generation when curing. This would require a greater -enmity build to counteract the generation which may cause cure pot% gear to be removed to compensate thus nullifying the JA or Passive trait being added in the first place unless SE decides to give us another tier of Tranquil Heart.

Also, not trying to be difficult just looking at "what if" scenarios. You want a remedy to something then think up a plausible solution, complaining about it doesn't really move the situation to a resolution if you aren't offering anything to fix the problem.

Can cap cure potency and have -50 enmity in gear (lose out on mind/healing skill obv) and Rdm has 3 tiers of Tranquil Heart @ 90.

With the nefer body from the update, it's easy for any mage to cap cure potency now.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

White mage: Experts in whit magic that specialize in healing and recovery spells. Weak in close combat, and prohibited from using blade weapons.

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Hey! White Mages are far from inept in close combat. Actually, if anything, White Mages are weak in every combat that isn't close.

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Originally Posted by Mageoholic

but at least make healing magic actually apply to healing spells. It is stupid that my 61WHM can heal for 200-300 more HP then my 90RDM.

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I don't think you could find a White Mage (okay, any real White Mages that aren't Abyssean burn victims who play the job only to get gear) who would disagree with you that healing magic skill should have a larger impact on cure strength, but the last time it was discussed in the White Mage forums, some people whined about it making White Mage more powerful, despite the fact that it would do the same for anyone else who cures.

A lack of native MP regeneration is White Mage's primary weakness at low levels. When this is eliminated, effectiveness skyrockets. This was the reason why Red Mage could outheal a White Mage at the 75 cap when set as the only healer.

Without Refresh, it is no contest, you will outheal the 61 White Mage. With Refresh, you either have someone Refreshing the White Mage, meaning that a bunch of the healing is partially coming from the Refresh source, or you are in Abyssea. If you are a Red Mage in a party refreshing the 61 White Mage, and you are upset they are out healing you, stop. They won't be out healing you very much longer.

If you are in Abyssea, there isn't much you can do. You are trying to compete with someone who has had their primary weakness (for that level) mitigated. Plus they can now hit 44% cure potency with Atma too, and stack on Afflatus Solace for a 25% boost on top.

Of course, nobody invites a 61 White Mage over a 95 Red Mage to cure except in some experience parties in Abyssea. And even then, it has to do more with the fact that the 61 White Mage will probably stick around longer. Basically, this is a bad hypothetical about competing with someone who has had their weakness nearly eliminated, in a rare situation few people actually deal with.

Think the main point was side-stepped to state the obvious. Mageholic was griping about being out cured by a primary healer and at the same time quashed the usual "I want cure V" that some expect that rdm should get but saying instead "I can deal without it." They however didn't offer anything other than this so I offered up a plausible solution while stating some potential pitfalls of a solution.

Didn't state Rdm couldn't get capped potency nor sufficient -enmity, only that increasing a tier of already available cures in some fashion to make up for the less than adequate healing capabilities of the job will have long term detrimental effects AKA, long fights will result in both a tank and the rdm reaching capped hate and each Cure IV will produce decent amounts of VE that can cause the mob being fought to have a ping pong effect. Even in my -enmity build I can only bomb with IV so much before reaching this situation, so increasing it would create more VE/HP restored thus requiring some other way to further negate this while performing this type of role in a primary sense. Hence why I mentioned another tier of tranquil heart, anything to negate the otherwise hard to avoid outcome of dropping IV's over and over again.

Cure IV reaches around the 600 range in capped potency if I recall correctly, while no contest to V's 1k restoration, that isn't exactly bad considering outside of abyssea that is a little less than half a standard melee's HP pool. Inside of abysea however, that isn't much when you take into consideration a standard melee with all abyssite has close to, or over 3k hp.

/sigh
This is truly frustrating with RDMs, but I've already proven my point, and well, nothing is going to come of DD things anyway so I have no reason to stay here. I'm done now /tap out, see you around if this ever starts picking up again.

Along this line I think SE should fix the healing skill issue. Up the cap on III / IV / V and let healing skill sort it out. RDM shouldn't be getting Cure V while Cure VI is so poor. But I could see SE making Cure III ~ V more potent across the board.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Along this line I think SE should fix the healing skill issue. Up the cap on III / IV / V and let healing skill sort it out. RDM shouldn't be getting Cure V while Cure VI is so poor. But I could see SE making Cure III ~ V more potent across the board.

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Okay, I dug up the White Mage post on Healing Magic (not hard, not many people post there) and found one of the many suggestions I had for it. I was trying to spark conversation for better suggestions, but alas, people whined instead of people brainstorming.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Healing Magic skill should improve cures regardless of what job you have, and lets be honest - while this is a more important issue to White Mages whose only role is to dish out the cures and support - other jobs would probably get more benefit from this then White Mages.

If, for example, you cured +X more points of curing per cure, where,

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X = (Healing Magic Skill -300) * (Tier of Cure)

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then we would see a much more noticeable increase on lower tier cures then larger tier cures - even if Cure V cured 375 more points per cure, a 225 point boost to Cure III, and a 300 point boost to Cure IV would affect non-White Mage curing much more.

Keep in mind that this formula is just a basic suggestion that would need tweaking however. Perhaps it would help if someone gave a good suggestion for this, instead of saying that White Mage has no complaints, because a good tweak to how important Healing Magic skill is could help non-White Mage classes out too.

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Who knows? Maybe cures are in need of a drastic increase in power in general. Maybe my basic proposal isn't all that good, maybe the cap should just be raised for all spells (especially Cure VI :mad:). But maybe this will help spark discussion.

Well the cure formula already scales pretty well with skill. But there is a soft cap placed on the effects of skill / MND that make it ridiculously easy to hit at subjob level skill. If they would ease up on that then you'd see a noticeable jump in base cure power of each spell, including cure V.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Well the cure formula already scales pretty well with skill. But there is a soft cap placed on the effects of skill / MND that make it ridiculously easy to hit at subjob level skill. If they would ease up on that then you'd see a noticeable jump in base cure power of each spell, including cure V.

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I don't think Healing Magic skill affects cures enough, regardless of whether or not it can be considered to scale up well. It takes five points of Healing Magic skill to equal a point of Mind, even on higher tier cures, and it isn't like there is a piece of gear that gives more then 20 points (effectively 4 MND, but without the offensive casting benefits).

On just removing the caps, I thought it sounded like a good idea, so I looked into it and did some advanced research on some of the cures. I already knew that Cure V and VI hard cap and Cure I, II, III, and IV all softcap (much of this is tested from Brews I believe?) and the fomulas vary between them. Cure V's formula is much less impressive when softcaps are removed as well (and Cure VI even less so, both with and without any caps).

Of course, you didn't suggest removing the caps altogether (and I don't think SE ever would either, since Cure I/II would both cure about 500 a piece, Cure III about 600, Cure IV about 1000, and Cure V around 1305 - basically, unless enmity is an issue, Cure V would be placed about where Cure VI is now, Cure IV would be the go to large damage cure, and White Mages would alternate between Cure I/II because they'd both be free cures with AF3 pants), and I'm mainly posting this because it is interesting.

But if the cure caps were eased up so that MP efficiency could reach anywhere higher then around 1.1HP/MP, this would mean that Cure V would start to perform poorly compared to other cures unless the formula for it was changed. If Cure IV got a 1.1HP/MP boost to its softcap, it would mean it would heal something like 500HP (~750HP at 50% potency gear) compared to its current ~400HP (~600HP). Cure III would cure about an additional ~50HP (~75HP) more. I'm not sure these are the numbers we'd want to see, so Cure V might need adjustment if softcaps were eased upon - Healing Magic skill would be a good way to do this.

I'm sorry if I got a bit sidetracked, but based on looking into this idea, I'm not sure if it is completely preferable, but more input helps any analysis.

Would be interesting if that could be implemented without the Enmity increasing along with it. Due to the high HP ranges most reach now, both in and out of abyssea, there should be something that adjusts the way the cure spells react once beyond a set skill lvl. Something like less than 300 skill produces the current soft caps, but beyond 300 skill range causes a new equation which enhances the limits of cure spells, or possibly anything learned at the level 85 range (passive trait) that allows cures to extend beyond their previous limitations. Only thing that really worries me about increasing the caps of lower tier is the enmity gains that come with it if they don't re-adjust those as well.

Maybe just make it so the previous tier can reach 80% of the next with healing skill in relation to WHM's gains. So, if Cure II would heal 90, Cure I could heal 72 by the time you could learn Cure II if you had capped skill. Current enmity values could be maintained so a 500-something Cure IV before gear won't basically be provoke on an 8s recast.