Trials of the Magians and casual players.

I haven't read much of the thread, but as someone who owns a couple 99 REM weapons and would probably be considered leaning towards a hardcore player, I wouldn't really have any problem with them coming up with ways to update magian weapons. It's kinda silly that a system like that designed to "level up" your weapons was completely abandoned. People talk about magian weapons being updated and delve weapons as if the two are mutually exclusive or something. A variety of weapons to choose from wouldn't really be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

You mentioned many other games and you're telling me they don't have content that's out grown? I haven't tried Free Realms but DC Universe I know for certain has zones/gear that become useless once you've leveled to a certain point, i.e. content = stepping stones.

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It's simple they just add more zones with more games quest and things to do. New content didn't need to be better it only needs more things to do. Look at WotG the campaign system was used to build up ranks and unlock new quest not gear.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

As to the stepping stones being leaps and jumps I disagree, when you take on content in a similar order to how I outlined a few pages back you'll see a more linear progression (except NNI that's just BS luck and gear only reduces the need to bank on said luck).

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I find it a huge leep when most of the casuil players I know barely have abbysea gear +1 sets let alown a single RME. When you look at trials the sword caps out at around 60est I think in attack power. a high end RME weapon especially Empy would cap out at roughly 70ish. The empty would also get the added effect from the weapon skill.

Look at the lowest of the new gear and its almost double the strength of MAXED out trial weapon. When you get into the higher tiers of SoA they're almost triple the damage rating.

If someone told you that a small drink at a convenience store is tiny leap to a to a jumbo you'd smack them upside the head. If you have a Small 8oz, Medium 12oz, Large 16oz and an extra large 32oz gulp sitting on the rack you can see the size differences are experimental. I assume that when you look at the stats between trials and the new gear you don't see the jumps in proportion. You seem to think the maxed out trials are good enough starting gear when they're not. The jump from medium to gulp is double. Consider the capped trials are in between small and medium where the previously capped RMEs barely achieved large.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

You're quite right, Zagen, but I don't think putting the burden of proof on someone else works either. I'm not sure what makes you think that 50% or more of the playerbase did want high gear progression?

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Honestly it was rhetorical because the game from day 1 has been that way, and we still pay to play :)

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Originally Posted by Randnum

Do you also believe that 50% or more of the playerbase are 'up to date on previous content'?

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Honestly I'd dare to say 80% of the player base isn't caught up to content before SoA. That doesn't change my belief about them wanting content stepping stones.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

Result: Exclusion of DDs without top gear.

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Absolutely no disagreement and I understand I'm in the minority when I believe the shouts should read to the effect of "job/weapon" if not a more detailed response explaining how you're good at X job because of Y. Unfortunately TotM never helped this issue. Hell most people will take an 85 masa over a 99 TP Bonus SAM despite math favoring the TP Bonus SAM in many situations.

The only exception to that is Ochain PLD for fracture farming (so far none of the NMs have required it). This is imo the biggest flaw with Delve, while a Twilight Mail/Helm owner (so opens it to Warrior / Paladin / Dark Knight / Beastmaster / Samurai / Dragoon) can replace the PLD and just keep reraising I still think it's flawed.

If fractures required 3/5 NMs to pop the Boss and you had to trade Beads to pop them that would be awesome, but for now it doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I find it a huge leep when most of the casuil players I know barely have abbysea gear +1 sets let alown a single RME. When you look at trials the sword caps out at around 60est I think in attack power. a high end RME weapon especially Empy would cap out at roughly 70ish. The empty would also get the added effect from the weapon skill.

Look at the lowest of the new gear and its almost double the strength of MAXED out trial weapon. When you get into the higher tiers of SoA they're almost triple the damage rating.

If someone told you that a small drink at a convenience store is a medium leap to a to a jumbo isn't a small leap. them. If you have a Small 8oz, Medium 12oz, Large 16oz and an extra large 32oz gulp cups sitting on the rack you can see the size differences. I assume that when you look at the stats between trials and the new gear you don't see the jumps in proportion. The jump from large to gulp is double.

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The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

The issue I see here is these players you mention aren't ready for SoA. Once they are ready for SoA they can begin progressing through SoA steps.

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Oh here we go again.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The only thing I've found boring is waiting for the chance to be able to participate in new content. When I actually do get the chance to play it, it's fun. The problem is the content requires such high end sutff that if you didn't get skirmish/wildskeeper stuff when people were still doing it, you're in a bad spot because your only chance to participate is support role jobs e.g. whm sch brd cor.

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This is not casual. Trials are. Again one tunnel visioned path. Everyone be like little sheep and follow that path other content is all but irrelevent and people are Flip'en greedy. They only care for #1 and aren't at all interested in doing old content. Finding players to do this OLD content isn't casual.

RAIST has already explained that casuals are more prone to being left to their own devices IE: trials or soloed content. Most of the older content your talking about to prepare them requires much of the small group shouting etc. trials where meant to grow with the player as with each time the level cap was raised they added new ones to keep them up to date.

I still don't think you get it. Casuals don't want the HARDCORE paths created by the developers they want the slow and steady paths that they can so on their own. The crap you keep trying to foist into casuals is just play hardcore like everyone else. Either you fail to grasp the diversity needs to make a fun game for everyone or the concept people have been trying to explain is so alien that it's impossible for you to interpret.

If a new casual player started today they'd have very very very little chance at being ready for even the lowest tier content. In fact they'd have an extremely hard time coming close to being ready for SoA content. Getting the old content leaves them at a severe disadvantage (barely anyone is doing it! and they don't have the resources to solo it. The minimal setup for older content completion requires a few really well geared players or mid sized groups of poorly geared players to complete them.

You just can't understand the large rift between content steps leaves casuals at a severe disadvantage to people like yourself that have already did them. Trials are a path for casuals not hardcore players. They where made so EVERYONE could develop decent weapons without RMT like activities to buy AH crap.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Oh here we go again.

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What? You're creating situations where that's the answer.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

I still don't think you get it. Casuals don't want the HARDCORE paths created by the developers they want the slow and steady paths that they can so on their own.

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Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

If you want that to happen one of 2 things has to happen:
1) Gear up to relevant levels to take on said content. R/E/M/D isn't required unless talking about the final bosses in fractures (they are just more helpful despite people requiring them).
2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Okay so you want casual players to partake in content designed to challenge the hardcore? It doesn't work that way.

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Sure why not. RME are in essence higher tier trials for better versions. After people throw a fit the developers finally caved and gave those trials extensions so they would remain relevant to new content growth. The difference between the RME trials and the casual trials where upgrade RME versions where considered decent for the latest content. The maxed out casual trials are below decent (poor, weak) after the expansion was added.

There is also another thing you failed to acknowledge. Players can buy gear that exceeds the strength of RME gear that isn't fully leveled to 99. This invalidates your argument entirely. If a casual player can somehow manage to get a few million gil they can buy equipment well beyond what most of the unfinished RME weapons players had. So your position that it's not fair for players to have equipment designed for the hardcore is irrelevant. The developers already screwed the players with partially complete RME versions. The only difference between hardcore and casuals would be the use of different steps to get the HARDCORE base equipment.

More or less your telling players that might not have a chance to get good enough gear from older content or trials (I explained this) they should purchase gil or quit because they don't deserve anything even decently near that content. So typical. Like I said most players are greedy and care only about #1. You've failed to recognize the rifts left by the new content and don't seem to give a damn about the needs of the casual players.
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The only reason someone would want to suppress casual trials is to inflate the egos of the hardcore audience. Clearly a few people are all for them getting updated. Just look at the likes on the original post. This says a lot more then the arguments you've been rabidly hitting reload to respond to on your browser. Is it that important for you to deny players with differing play styles a chance to advance in their own way? If that's the case then it comes closer to a moral issue where the elitist are controlling the show. Its no longer design/development issue if that's agenda behind such reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

2) Wait until new hardcore content is released and the current hardcore content gets toned down to become easier.

I don't get your problem to be honest. These slow and steady paths you want are already in game and as mentioned in #2 even more will get added when the difficulty level gets toned down.

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So the casual user base should just stop everything and wait for the content. In other words "JUST QUIT THE GAME." Wonderful advice for a game company that's already bleeding it's fan base and money. Much like the situation where people who waited for Voidwalker (older content) toned down. Now they'll be lucky to get warps unlocked if they didn't play the content when it FIRST came out.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

More or less your telling players that might not have a chance to get good enough gear from older content or trials (I explained this) they should purchase gil or quit because they don't deserve anything even decently near that content. So typical. Like I said most players are greedy and care only about #1. You've failed to recognize the rifts left by the new content and don't seem to give a damn about the needs of the casual players.

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Pot calling the kettle black, genius! Don't get it? You're being greedy by wanting to be able to accomplish the same things someone who puts in more dedication than you are able/willing to do at the exact same time as them.

Again TotM actually caters to the player who can dedicate more time to the game and/or move real life things around to make "predictable" requirements as RAIST put it. In either case you're completely missing the point.

Even if TotM weapons were updated to compete with delve weapons you won't be getting invited if you skipped too many of the older content. Armor is just as important as your weapons...

What Rifts? You mean VW the gear that was made almost completely useless by other events that are easier to do? Oh maybe you mean NNI which there's Salvage 2 very small man friendly and there's Bayld Armor both of which compete with a lot of that gear.

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Originally Posted by Sarick

So the casual user base should just stop everything and wait for the content. In other words "JUST QUIT THE GAME." Wonderful advice for a game company that's already bleeding it's fan base and money. Much like the situation where people who waited for Voidwalker (older content) toned down. Now they'll be lucky to get warps unlocked if they didn't play the content when it FIRST came out.

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Don't you have a bunch of other content to work on? If you don't then why do you need to wait? You're already geared and capable to take on SoA. In other words you'd fall under having completed #1 and #2 is irrelevant to you.

ITT: You're hardcore if you have common sense and average or better gear/weapons.

Umm w/ SoA content, even if u get the older content via weapons/gear there's a high chance u won't get invited still as a casual player. Now that i've seen on my server(Lakshmi), they only accept those who have R/E/M/D weapons and mostly 2-handed. They won't invite a new person if they don't know wth they are doing hence they won't teach them cause they'll think that they know what to do. With a casual player that's frustration waiting to happen if u got a really good friend to let u in. More than likely they will pass the new content and head to the old since there is more things to do or they will quit and find something else that is much easier for them to accomplish.