Do you really think that little of your player base?

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Where is the Legion "easy button"?

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The content is barely a year old, wait for a bit lol. They usually add the easy button around a year after said content is introduced, and sooner if everyone just start complaining about it. They already adjusted the monster HP for 18 people alliance. But yeah definitely need more easy button on neo nyzul, neo einherjar and legion. Unless the developer loves being boneheaded again - which does not bode well for the future direction of this game.

What's sad is that the reason SE doesn't clarify what they mean when they say something would "go against balance" or when they give some sort of nonsensical gibberish and pretend it's a logical reason they can't do something, it's not done because we wouldn't actually be able to understand their logic/reasoning anyway, but rather, it's done because we would understand it, and we would be able to quickly prove their logic faulty and/or entirely fallacious. I imagine the usual process goes something like this:

"Hey guys, the players say they want you to do [random incredibly helpful thing we've needed done for years]"
"Hmmm, as nice as that would be for them, we can't, because it would negatively impact [random completely arbitrary issue that a sudden change in would not actually negatively or positively impact the game in any way] because of [spaghetti code/ps2 limitations/some other silly reason], so we can't."
"Well, yea, but we can't tell them that, they'd know it's a load of horseshit in a second and riot on us..."
"Let's flip a coin. Heads, we tell them we're 'thinking about it, but it's not a very high priority,' tails we tell them 'While we understand why the players would like this, we feel that it would unbalance [some other random thing, completely unrelated to the actual issue, but related to the proposed change], and that's something we'd like to avoid.'"
*the coin is flipped*
"Looks like it's tails. Go ahead and give the reps our 'answer' so we can move on to something more important. Who's up for a Tetra Master Tourney?"

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

This is what Balance amounts to as it stands:

B - bullshit
A - aimed
L - largely
A - at
N - negating
C - constructive
E - endeavors

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So... perfect...

LOL totally agree with you on this. I mean granted they have been operating in a bare bones crew in the past few years, and you cannot do much with the little resource they have. I am at least glad they churned out these many updates in the past few years. I know it's hard to please everyone. When those abyssea haters complaint on how easy it is to get rewarded and suddenly everyone in the same level playing field, they gave us Voidwatch. These same people yet complaint again that it is random luck based, now not everyone is getting it, it is not fair blah blah blah. They revamped Walk of Echoes, still the same people complaint it is too accessible, and nobody but the japanese actually do this event. They gave us Legion which is like very old school, the same people complaint it is too hard. All the neo contents released, no one else touched it since you have to cheat to win them somehow, lol. Now we are back at Abyssea and Voidwatch again.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

Unfortunately, my counterstance on it still holds as well. The development team ultimately gets to decide on what they want to respond to, and how to respond about it. Notice, not a single community rep or otherwise has yet to post in this thread. Its definately a hot topic, but im sure their avoiding it for all the right reasons.

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That's not an argument at all. We're aware that the development team gets to decide that. The development team gets to decide everything. Does that mean we can't make suggestions? What's the point of these forums then? You can go into every thread ever and complain that people shouldn't suggest anything, because ultimately it's all up to SE.

And you can't possibly be sure for why they're not replying, because they rarely reply to anything. And we don't particularly care for a reply. This is not a specific suggestion to change some feature or something similar. This is just a general suggestion of what direction we'd like the game to go into. It would be hard to reply to this in the first place. We mainly want them to notice it, and hopefully consider it in their future game design and development.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

As for Arcon, take a step back and please stop using name calling and less than proper language towards others. I am willing to debate with you, but resorting to those methods is very discouraging for an adult conversation.

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Like what? Because I called what you said bullshit? I did that because it was bullshit, it was objectively false and I gave an explanation for why. I don't remember saying anything else. I'm not trying to be offensive, and if you still get offended the issue may be with you.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

If you sit at a poker table in a casino, it doesnt mater if you know the rules or not. Now someone who would choose to do so might think "Hey i should learn how to play before jumping in! Real money is at stake, i would hate to throw it away because i dont understand how to play!" So you research the game. You ask the dealer at an empty table to teach you how to play poker. They explain that you win with certain combinations of cards, they explain how to place a bet, the tell you the rules to each turn. Now you can play poker! But whats this? Some guy at the other table is beating you? Hey how did he beat me with a pair of 2s! I had three 5s! Oh wait, i folded. That is because you need to explore how to use the rules to achieve your objective. You never learned about bluffing from dealer. But if you asked your friends, they might have given you a heads up on the strategy part. And even then, you still need experience to determine what strategy works for you and how you plan to win. Thats exploration of a game. I couldnt define it any more detailed than that. When you play a game, your obligated to learn how to play it first. And even then, you dont have to know how to play a game without training. It just helps to learn so you can achieve victory.

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That is exactly what I said. You're now fully supporting my argument. Knowing the rules is equivalent to knowing the game mechanics. Applying the rules and learning how to be good within their confines is gameplay. The first needs to be known so the game can be played. Everything after that is exploration.

When I say I wanna know how the game works, I mean I actually wanna know the mechanics involved. It means I want to know which piece of gear does what exactly. Because right now we don't know. Once we know that, it does not mean we get everything handed to us. It means now the game can begin: we need to figure out which gear is best to used for which situation, which buffs are best used, trying to make strategies around different setups, and so on. That is what the game is.

I'll give you an example of what I mean. Do you remember when Lv75 Paladins used to wear Phalanx Rings? They got laughed at and didn't even know why. That's because DEF+10 looks great on paper. Only they didn't know. Because no one told them how useless DEF is. Now you'd think DEF is to defense what Attack is to offense. That's a fairly logical assumption, no? But you'd be wrong again.

I'll give you more examples. People underestimated Haste a lot. Why? They thought it made them faster (which sounds reasonable, going by the name), but that's incorrect. It reduces their delay. And that is a very crucial difference in damage output. It makes Haste+80% be as effective as Haste+500% if it just increased your speed. Only people would never know that without doing actual research and make an effort to determine this. They'd play the game under false assumptions because it's not clear what the stats do.

There's countless other examples like that. VIT/STR myths? Treasure Hunter? Different Haste categories? And don't even get me started on gear we still don't know what the fuck it's supposed to do, even though it's been out for a long time now.

Or to put it back into the poker analogy: we can't make proper strategies and decisions without knowing how the game works. With FFXI we're not told how it works. A large part of it was figured out by players. A large part of it is still trying to be figured out by players, with little success.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

As for telling you what is fun for you, do me and everyone else a favor. Define what makes this fun for you. Tell us what keeps you playing FFXI.

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Playing the game. I like doing events like Einherjar (old and new), Limbus (old and new), Assaults, Salvage and Legion. I like solo efforts, trying if I can beat certain NMs on THF or SMN or whatever I feel like at the moment. I also like helping people out. Farming Abyssea for items, helping with limit breaks and mission fights and whatnot. I have an active LS with friends in it whom I get to talk to.

Is that surprising? I thought this was what literally everyone played for (with a different choice of events, maybe).

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Originally Posted by Chuk

For me its pretty easy, im not done with the game yet. Theres still a handful of hurdles and quests for me to do. A few more stories to experience. A few more fights for me to declare victory in.

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So basically the same as me. And none of what you said involved exploring how the game works. You're just talking about exploring the lore and the land, not game mechanics. It seems everything you say agrees with what I say completely, but you just don't want to admit to it.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

And for the record, it is a sight-seeing tour.

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A sight-seeing tour is not interactive. A movie is something you take in. A book is something you take in. A song is something you take in. Games aren't. Games require interaction. You need to make your own experience. That's not a sight-seeing tour. I've done Odin a ton of times. I don't think there's anything I haven't seen from him. I've seen all his TP moves, all his valkyries' TP moves and all the loot he has to offer. But I'm still not done with him.

If it was a sight-seeing tour, doing anything more than once would be a waste. A sight-seeing tour only showers you with information. That's why it doesn't compare and never will. Because this is not about "knowing about it", this is about "playing it". I know lots about lots of the game and I still do it, because fun is not only in the story, but also in the execution of the gameplay. Cutscenes are sight-seeing tours. And if I've seen it before I usually skip it. But the fight that follows isn't, no matter how often you do it.

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Originally Posted by Chuk

I really hope this game isnt a chore or job to you, that doesnt sound like fun at all.

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Take note, because this is important: everyone plays the game because it's fun. No matter what they do. I could never understand why people EXP. It seems like a tedious chore to me. But people do enjoy it. And what's wrong with that? I never once judged what you consider fun, please stop saying that. But you do judge what other people consider fun. You said that you hope the game isn't a chore to me. How condescending. Why do you care if it is? You think you're better than others if they play something that sounds boring to you? What's a chore to you may be fun for someone else. I don't judge you for that, never did. And neither should you.

To put this in laymen terms:

If I walk into every single thread and say " You can't do that. It would mess up the game." and rarely, if ever offer any explanation as to why, other than "balance suckaz!" - Players will report me for adding nothing to the thread and generally trying to instigate a flame war. I will be temp banned.

Yet if a community rep / dev / ceo waltzes into the pup thread labeled "please add more spells to X frame" and says "hey guys! just wanted to let you know that we aren't adding a new ranged attack attachment because BaRaNcE!" (note that this info is not related to the discussion).

Somehow this is okay?...

That is the problem.

Not only are most of the posts only vaguely related to the topic of discussion, but they are almost always so vague that they cause massive amounts of unnecessary confusion and debate.

Don't forget they're on vay-cay~

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Originally Posted by Modoru

Don't forget they're on vay-cay~

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They must be on a constant vacation then because it's no different than when they're supposedly in the office.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I didn't. Never. I said he has the definition of "game" wrong. If he enjoys doing this stuff, all power to him. And guess what, I actually enjoy it too, within reason. I did a lot of testing on a lot of things, and figuring this stuff out is fun to me, but that does not mean it's what this game is supposed to be.

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How can you even say any of these things? This is not your game, you just play it. Like it or not, that's the way it is. The developers have always been vague about how things function, it's what they do. They're providing you with a service and you're asking for proprietary information that you have no right to.

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I'm calling you a child because you're incoherent and you don't know how to argue. You say I'm contradicting myself but don't bring any arguments for it. You call me whining that I'm not getting every detail, when that was never what I said or wanted. You either have a reading comprehension disability, or you're just stubborn and don't know how to argue properly. I always assume the latter unless I have sufficient proof that the person I'm talking to is stupid enough to assume the former.

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I'm guessing you wanted me to quote your posts in more detail and point out exactly where you're whining, but your posts are just so full of tears I don't know where to begin. They also contain a lot of condescending comments implying that others around you are either children or less intelligent than yourself, take a look if you don't believe me. Is that what makes you good at arguing, imagining that you're arguing with a child? Hmm.

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I know. I don't intend to sue them for fraud or anything. This is a request for them to loosen up a bit about the details. We're not bitching because we feel entitled. We're asking because it would make playing the game a more enjoyable experience. Kids are usually not aware of the difference between the two things, so I don't blame you for confusing them.

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You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

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Originally Posted by Caketime

How can you even say any of these things? This is not your game, you just play it. Like it or not, that's the way it is. The developers have always been vague about how things function, it's what they do. They're providing you with a service and you're asking for proprietary information that you have no right to.

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My reply to this is in my last paragraph that you quoted. Consult that for further reference.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I'm guessing you wanted me to quote your posts in more detail and point out exactly where you're whining, but your posts are just so full of tears I don't know where to begin.

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At least you know when to concede.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

They also contain a lot of condescending comments implying that others around you are either children or less intelligent than yourself, take a look if you don't believe me. Is that what makes you good at arguing, imagining that you're arguing with a child? Hmm.

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Duh. I never disputed that I was condescending towards you. I'm like that towards snotty brats. Your random and overly zealous use of memes (even in your username) and shameful attempts at trolling suggest that you're either mentally challenged or a child, because no one else actually thinks that's funny. As I said in the quoted section, I'd hate to assume the first, so out of politeness I assume the latter.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You can't always get what you want~
You can't always get what you want~
No you can't always get what you want~
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You'll get what you need~

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What do we want? GEO/RNF to use Emp/Relic weapons.
What do we need? The reason why balance prevents this.
This may not be the exact topic here but it an example, we know what we want, but we need a reason why, or else it seems like complete and utter BS to us, and we just assume the devs are to lazy or foolish to be able to implement what we are asking for. More than 75% of the time when we are told no about something we want, our reason is balance, we need a real honest to god answer to set our minds at rest however.