Enmity

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Please read this: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ould-Read-This)

1 Cure IV when accounting for casting time (2.5 seconds) and casting/JA delay (2 seconds) will essentially cost you 2 attack rounds with Haste/Marches. If your PLD can swing for 150 damage or more you will generate more hate than a Cure IV for 450 cast on a 75 will do.

When you're with a group or just a WHM being able to heal yourself effectively as you keep calling it when you're the tank means nothing if it gets you less hate than your own DDing will get you because the more you cure yourself the sooner you're going to lose hate.

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Zagen, even in this rare situation you are theorizing where a paladin has all these buffs and great DD gear to where he could possibly do so much damage in 2.5 seconds that the enmity it would create would be more than a Cure 4, you are forgetting one important point. It isn't just creating enmity, it is also restoring your HP - which is what keeps you alive :)

It's worth doing. Use your heals. Otherwise you are better off just being a full-blown damage dealer.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Zagen, even in this rare situation you are theorizing where a paladin has all these buffs and great DD gear to where he could possibly do so much damage in 2.5 seconds that the enmity it would create would be more than a Cure 4, you are forgetting one important point. It isn't just creating enmity, it is also restoring your HP - which is what keeps you alive :)

It's worth doing. Use your heals. Otherwise you are better off just being a full-blown damage dealer.

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I'm theorizing that a PLD would have 3 buffs from 2 jobs and technically it could be 1 player on BRD/WHM doing the buffs. My PLD on a good amount of NMs in Abyssea can hit 150+ on normal hits that doesn't count crits which run 200+ and my PLD still needs work wen it comes to DD setup. That's just with Atma/Cruor/Food I don't get where you feel there are tons of buffs that are rare.

This shouldn't be a rare situation unless you're small manning something at which point a MNK/NIN/THF/DNC is a better tank than PLD because the damage dealt is more hate gained/regained than your cure IV. Keep in mind the fewer buffs you have the more the game currently favors MNK/DNC, NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, and even THF/NIN depending on the NM.

When many NMs have TP moves that can do 1-2k+ your Cure IV isn't going to keep you alive or help counteract the damage you just took. The hate you gain/regain from meleeing instead of locking yourself in a Cure IV will help make sure your hate is above a WHM who just cast Cure VI on you to recover the HP you lost.

I've tanked many NMs on PLD, MNK, WAR, DNC, and even a few on BLU. All in hopes to have fun doing it while learning how each job can best tank in general because I do find it fun. PLD spamming cures is a dead idea and has been for a long time.

Edit: Food for thought with a 224 delay weapon and 0 Haste which is well frankly unheard of, 224 / 60 = 3.74 seconds since your Cure IV takes 4.5 seconds it still breaks 2 attack cycles on a sword since you can't have 25% of an attack cycle.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I'm theorizing that a PLD would have 3 buffs from 2 jobs and technically it could be 1 player on BRD/WHM doing the buffs. My PLD on a good amount of NMs in Abyssea can hit 150+ on normal hits that doesn't count crits which run 200+ and my PLD still needs work wen it comes to DD setup. That's just with Atma/Cruor/Food I don't get where you feel there are tons of buffs that are rare.

This shouldn't be a rare situation unless you're small manning something at which point a MNK/NIN/THF/DNC is a better tank than PLD because the damage dealt is more hate gained/regained than your cure IV. Keep in mind the fewer buffs you have the more the game currently favors MNK/DNC, NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, and even THF/NIN depending on the NM.

When many NMs have TP moves that can do 1-2k+ your Cure IV isn't going to keep you alive or help counteract the damage you just took. The hate you gain/regain from meleeing instead of locking yourself in a Cure IV will help make sure your hate is above a WHM who just cast Cure VI on you to recover the HP you lost.

I've tanked many NMs on PLD, MNK, WAR, DNC, and even a few on BLU. All in hopes to have fun doing it while learning how each job can best tank in general because I do find it fun. PLD spamming cures is a dead idea and has been for a long time.

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Well just the presence of a bard period makes it a rare occasion if you ask me.

And again with this "spamming cure" thing. I never know how to respond to this comment, but if you are suggesting Paladins using their heal spells is a dead idea and has been dead for a long time, maybe you should start waking it back up cause i coudn't do 99% of the things i do without it :)

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Originally Posted by Dale

Well just the presence of a bard period makes it a rare occasion if you ask me.

And again with this "spamming cure" thing. I never know how to respond to this comment, but if you are suggesting Paladins using their heal spells is a dead idea and has been dead for a long time, maybe you should start waking it back up cause i coudn't do 99% of the things i do without it :)

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Perfect example the Cockatrice NM in Abyssea - Altepa that drops PLD/RDM/THF/SAM Hand Seals I went MNK/DNC with a group that was MNK, WHM, THF, PLD, BLM. The PLD is the one that usually tanks a lot of NMs when we're holding them to get !!s we need. Also decently geared/skilled when it comes to a survivalist PLD (lacks a good DD set that is decent IMO) and the only time he tanked while using Cure IV as needed on my MNK was when cover was up. I tanked all of the fights many of them just by meleeing.

Can you explain what happened? I mean he was curing me the WHM was a Dualbox just there for Stona and "Oh Crap" moments.

Edit: The moment you cast 1 Cure IV you've lost more hate than I can gain from meleeing on PLD so Spamming can range from once in a while to every time it is ready to go. It sucks for hate gain period unless you bring a level 30 mule and cure cheat with them.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Perfect example the Cockatrice NM in Abyssea - Altepa that drops PLD/RDM/THF/SAM Hand Seals I went MNK/DNC with a group that was MNK, WHM, THF, PLD, BLM. The PLD is the one that usually tanks a lot of NMs when we're holding them to get !!s we need. Also decently geared/skilled when it comes to a survivalist PLD (lacks a good DD set that is decent IMO) and the only time he tanked while using Cure IV as needed on my MNK was when cover was up. I tanked all of the fights many of them just by meleeing.

Can you explain what happened? I mean he was curing me the WHM was a Dualbox just there for Stona and "Oh Crap" moments.

Edit: The moment you cast 1 Cure IV you've lost more hate than I can gain from meleeing on PLD so Spamming can range from once in a while to every time it is ready to go. It sucks for hate gain period unless you bring a level 30 mule and cure cheat with them.

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Well i can't really comment on this, i've never fought the cockatrice NM thingy.

I did however fight some spider NM in abyssea that dropped a seal for ninja and dancer, and would have never been able to kill it had I not used my healing spells to keep myself alive :)

Look - if you dont' want to heal on your paladin and think it's a waste that's your business. I think it's silly and see no value in playing a Paladin if you aren't going to use your healing spells, but that is - afterall - just my opinion. There is turning into a dead end argument, case you are never going to convince me healing isn't worth doing and I guess i'm never going to convince you healing is worth doing.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Well i can't really comment on this, i've never fought the cockatrice NM thingy.

I did however fight some spider NM in abyssea that dropped a seal for ninja and dancer, and would have never been able to kill it had I not used my healing spells to keep myself alive :)

Look - if you dont' want to heal on your paladin and think it's a waste that's your business. I think it's silly and see no value in playing a Paladin if you aren't going to use your healing spells, but that is - afterall - just my opinion. There is turning into a dead end argument, case you are never going to convince me healing isn't worth doing and I guess i'm never going to convince you healing is worth doing.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

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The topic is on Enmity >.> I'd hope you could see that I'm pointing out cures are pointless because they cause you to gain less hate than the melee swings you'd get to swing if you didn't cast cures. When you have support you shouldn't have moments where you need to cure much.

But as you said all you care about is using your cures because you want to regardless of how they affect Enmity and efficiency as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Dale

I've killed plenty of NMs without healing support. I've killed NMs in campaigns without healing support. I"m new to abyssea, so i'm not sure what tier1 NMs are, but I killed some NM spider other day without any healing support. I can chain IT monsters without healing support. But all of this is besides the point, as your definition of what is "relevant" is way too limited for my tastes.

I think you underetsimate how well a paladin can sustain himself with heals. I don't know what you mean by "heal spammage" so i won't really comment only to say healing yourself to recover missing hp ins't a waste and certainly doesn't hurt the paladin's tanking.

I agree attonement deffinitely enhanced the pld tanking. That one was a game-changer. Not only does it allow you to do nice damage fast, but it also lets you gear more defensively - as you no longer need huge amounts of strength and attack to hit hard, plus it bypasses physical defense.

So i agree with you on attonment...but i have no clue how that takes away from the fact healing yourself to recover your hp is good. So the last part of you argument makes little sense to me. The small amount of time it takes away from your melee to heal yourself is deffinitely worth it. And coming from someone who uses attonement with a sword that hits more times than a joyeuse, I think i'm on solid ground with that conclusion.

Look. Play paladin your way and i'll play it my way. I can live with that. Just don't say the job sucks or is at the bottom of the pool, cause it isn't. The fact we have white magic does mean we need less support than other tanks, and that is our strength when compared to other tanks like monks and warriors. That was my point.

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ok, i think ur misunderstanding where im comming from. when u started this post it was about tanking. in my world tanking means holding hate while others in your party attack the mob. not soloing. If ur soloing, other jobs just do it better lol.

but seriously, i still stand by my orignal argument. In a situation (situation where u have support = ls events, dynamis, einherjar...basically endgame)where u have support, other jobs just do it better then pld. and if soloing, other jobs just do it better too lol.

And about atonement, idk y you would gear for def for it. to max out atonement haste/acc was the way to go lol...just like any DD knows, more DPS = more ws = mob dead faster. Thats y alot of DD jobs make x-hit builds, that means they can ws more often (mainly 2handers i think) or jobs like nin and mnk hit the haste cap to get as many attack rounds in as little time as possible. Again this was before abyssea.

Idk about u, but back when i played pld (pre abyssea)i had about 7 full gearsets for pld and always carried 5 of them on me at all times. (haste, fastcast, cure kit, -pdt, enmity, -mdt/+mdb and fire resist) and depending on the situation i geared accordingly.

but like i said before, depending on the situation...other jobs just do it better.

after reading the last few pages, it clear he dosent do endgame in anyway. Otherwise i think he would understand what most of us are trying to explain lol.