Would introducing an atma with increased skill gain rates be too dramatic?

Just wondering.

I don't think it would be too far-fetched.

A crutch for the weak perhaps...but not overpowered. So I agree that it is dramatic as skill gain has never been an issue outside of maybe parry/guard.

I hear leveling summoning skill is a pain also

I'd personally rather training armor with negative status effects, but the additional effect of increased skill ups.

Because a Prouesse Ring is so hard to get?

It isn't ideal but to get my axe up I just skilled up soloing FOV (in Zeruhn so I had a chance at the ring!) till it was high enough to hit VT/IT in [A] la thiene reasonably frequently and then joined a party and ate sushi. A couple parties in the lower Abyssea zones and my Axe skill is in the level 82 zone now, which isn't bad with me at 85. I would rather just stay at level 85 until I have a few more dribs and drabs together so that when I hit 90 I am not quite such a big gimp.

Is that weird? I just don't see any point in getting 90 until I am going to be able to perform the way someone at level 90 should.

I would really like an atma with increased skill up rates...would be fun to mix and match my atma for skill up parties.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Because a Prouesse Ring is so hard to get?

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30 hours in Zeruhn with level 5 discovery and no ring to show for it says yes.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

30 hours in Zeruhn with level 5 discovery and no ring to show for it says yes.

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3 minutes while helping a level 10 friend get rank 1 basty quest and showing off in front of them, just to have the ring in the chest says no.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

3 minutes while helping a level 10 friend get rank 1 basty quest and showing off in front of them, just to have the ring in the chest says no.

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hurhur I got extremely lucky so obviously that invalidates people who have spent more than entire day of real world time trying to get this item hurhurhur

You missed my point.

I would understand if the ring came from a NM that takes 18+ people to kill and only pops once a week, while having a 2% drop rate, but that is not the case.

Besides, I doubt that person really spent that much time doing that. Probably went from 1-2 hours and giving up, then dramatizing it to say why they don't have it, when other people who want it already has theirs.

I doubt that its even less than 1% from brown chests. 5% maybe, but not 1%.

I don't have it.

Of course, I've never killed anything in Zeruhn mines... but still.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

3 minutes while helping a level 10 friend get rank 1 basty quest and showing off in front of them, just to have the ring in the chest says no.

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Nice luck. I opened a lot of brown chests and got a lot of ethers. /shrugs

I wish I was over-exaggerating, but for the sake of preserving prowess buffs, I'd logged in Zeruhn 3 nights in a row, spending 4 days of play time hoping. I'd long since capped merits at one point with mobs roughly being 70 or so EXP a kill on top of GoV page bonuses and took my NPC from 63 to almost 71. However, 63-65 came before the 3 night stint and I had to take her out for the cap quest. As is, the zone can't really support more than 15 people aggressively killing and the amount of people I see leaving blue chests up doesn't help, either. As an idea of how many mobs I'd killed, I sold 38 stacks of Zeruhn Soot from my mule. How many did I chuck? Dunno. I'd give that 100k up for the ring, though.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

time isn't valuable

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30 hours of straight playtime (not all at once, of course) is totally believable. As my sig suggests I zipped around Zeruhn at +37% movement speed with a provoke-esque claim and piercing damage to mulch bats in 20 seconds and it still took about 10 hours. Got my NPC from 70 to 79 in the process. I could very easily see one of the poor hapless souls from whom I mercilessly stole bat after bat from halfway across the universe taking 25-30 hours before giving up in exasperation; I was really only hanging on for the sake of NPC levels.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

if you don't think something so random as to require 30 hours of concentrated play time (which btw is totally believable for someone not blessed with my sig-worthy DNC overpoweredness) doesn't qualify as difficult even if the process doesn't require more than one person and does not, strictly speaking, carry a huge risk of death, your time is clearly not valuable enough for your opinions to carry weight on pretty much anything

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Carry a huge risk of death? We are talking about killing EP mobs here, if THAT.

30 hours of concentrated play is what, a Trial of the Magian Elemental staff all the way to 90? If you really want something bad enough, you would work for it. Its not like you have to kill AV and PW at the same time here, its something that anybody with a goal can do within a week, a month if there is very very very limited gameplay time involved.

Considering a long grind with a definitive end that logs permanent progress every single kill in any way the same as a long grind involving triggering RNG in hopes of a rare drop with no demarcation of progress along the way is what makes people lose thousands of dollars in Vegas.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Could there perhaps be a difference between a long grind with a definitive end that logs permanent progress every single kill and a long grind involving triggering RNG in hopes of a rare drop with no demarcation of progress along the way?

Considering these the same thing is what makes people lose thousands of dollars in Vegas.

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Wait, are we talking about the same thing?

I'm saying grinding for Prouesse Ring and grinding for a Magian trial other than a WoE weapon are in no way similar.

Well, not only that, but considering these two distinct types of things to be at all the same is a common error that has brought a great deal of suffering on likely untold millions of people throughout history. So I guess I'm talking about that, too.

EDIT: To be fair though, this is probably an unnecessary tangent because I can say as an owner of a Prouesse Ring that it is mega garbage and any imperceptable increase in skill-up rate provided would be totally eclipsed by the skillups I'd have gotten if I'd spent the time farming for it skilling up instead. One would hope a skillup atma would provide larger benefits than the Ring.

Because its faster to get a Prouesse Ring than a fully finished TotM weapon? Generally that is.

Subtlety and analogy are totally lost on you, aren't they?

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Subtlety and analogy are totally lost on you, aren't they?

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Guess if you think so.

I could type up a long explanation of the gambler's fallacy, how it ruins lives, and how you're playing it out by even saying "getting X RNG drop takes Y amount of time" rather than "getting X RNG drop takes the amount of time it happens to end up taking", but I know you won't read it.

Instead, I'll just say that ToM and RNG are not even remotely comparable because ToM is 1+1+1+1+1=5 and RNG is 0+0+0+0+a totally unpredictable and indeterminate number of zeroes+5=5, and if you can't figure out the difference you are welcome at my weekly poker game.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

I could type up a long explanation of the gambler's fallacy, how it ruins lives, and how you're playing it out by even saying "getting X RNG drop takes Y amount of time" rather than "getting X RNG drop takes the amount of time it happens to end up taking", but I know you won't read it.

Instead, I'll just say that ToM and RNG are not even remotely comparable because ToM is 1+1+1+1+1=5 and RNG is 0+0+0+0+a totally unpredictable and indeterminate number of zeroes+5=5, and if you can't figure out the difference you are welcome at my weekly poker game.

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I know what gambler's fallacy is, but the way you explained it is completely confusing.

Also, if RNG means Ring for you, why don't you actually type R-I-N-G instead of knocking off the "i". That just makes you look lazy. However, if you are talking about Ranger, then we are both having different conversations.

You are right though, TotM staffs have a goal, and a long one, and one that is traceable. Ring, however, doesn't. Every brown chest has a 1/20 shot in being the ring. However, since the rate of brown chests are common, and we are talking about a 1/20 chance overall, I still stand by what I said that it is faster to get a ring than to complete a TotM staff from start to finish. It takes somebody who would play this game from start-finish, only pausing for RR, food, and sleep, probably 3 days to finish a staff. Some staffs probably longer, depending on luck of weather. You could get the ring in an hour, in 5 hours, in 10 hours if your luck is really bad. Although I don't have any stats to back this up, I think that, by my own observations, the average time it would take for a person to get a ring would be about 10 hours, with a standard deviation of 3 hours. 30 hours is just one extreme example, along with 3 minutes being on the other extreme. But the problem is, you only HEAR about the extremes. Not that many people (not enough to make an actual sample of the population to make a better determination to see how long it really would take) would say how long it actually took them, or be accurate either.

RNG means Random Number Generation.

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Every brown chest has a 1/20 shot in being the ring. However, since the rate of brown chests are common, and we are talking about a 1/20 chance overall, I still stand by what I said that it is faster to get a ring than to complete a TotM staff from start to finish.

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Hey, if this slot machine has a 5% chance to give me a 20x payout, the worst that can happen is I break even!

(also, I reiterate for the sake of the prouesse-seeking peanut gallery that the ring is garbage while magian staves are clearly not, but the relative value of the reward isn't necessarily what we're talking about here)

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Originally Posted by scaevola

RNG means Random Number Generation.

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Thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

30 hours in Zeruhn with level 5 discovery and no ring to show for it says yes.

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30 hours you could have spent capping your skills.

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Originally Posted by Olor

I hear leveling summoning skill is a pain also

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Only if you burnt it from lvl 30-90 in abyssea.

Do we really need more pointless threads, truly people need to stop being lazy and skill up or level the normal way, that way they understand the need for gear swaps as well since atmas are already a huge crutch and allow people to wear full pearl teal or aurore and do good damage I can't wait till all gimps have to do content outside abyssea to see more worthless threads, I'm glad they made the game more friendly for the casual player but it's really dumbed down the player base.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

Only if you burnt it from lvl 30-90 in abyssea.

BLAH BLAH BLAH ELITIST GARBAGE. NEW PLAYERS SUCK BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T SPENT 7 YEARS GETTING GEARS. BLAH BLAH BLAH ETC ETC

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I heard that from a friend who has never taken their summoner into Abyssea as far as I know. They said they counted once how many actions it took to get a skill up - it was like summoning something 50 times to get 0.1.

I know even for my mage jobs where I am casting without huge timers between when I can do an action (isn't it like 45 seconds) my skills still don't keep up with leveling, even SOLO leveling. So it seems believable that raising summoning skill is a pain.

Honestly, lose the rage. No one I know enjoys skilling up. It is quite possibly the most boring thing possible. So what if people would prefer to spend their time in game doing fun stuff versus auto-attacking crabs.

Yes please, enough about the useless ring. I made this suggestion because I would love to skill up in abyssea relatively quickly, all the while completing dominion ops for exp/merits/something to do. Skilling up is boring enough as it is. I still wish we could skill up in campaign. As it stands, campaign has nothing worth working towards for me personally.

It would be awesome if they made campaign the go-to for skill ups (from 60-80) and leveling from 60-75. AWESOME. As it is now, no one really does it, which sucks.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

30 hours you could have spent capping your skills.

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Pretty much this- a lot of people want the Prouesse Ring because they thought it would save them some time on skilling up, which has been a complaint for a while now. Korpg doesn't seem to understand this...the Prouesse Ring isn't one of the types of items players should have to "work" for because it's really not powerful or game-breaking in any sense.

The only time I bother trying to get it is when I level my NPC. If I wasn't doing that I wouldn't even bother, because once again, the purpose of the ring is completely lost through the massive amount of effort needed to obtain it.

wow go skill up in a real place not abyssea. and anyone who has a smn knows its faster to cap it using ur smn abalities not just sitting there using the smn call and thats it. go do something productive and stop wasting out time in these pointless threads. go skill up and stop bitching about how u cant skill up coz u have lvl 5 skills and ur in abyssea trying to skill up.

Only reason I kept trying was because I'd need to skill from 91-99 too. Most of my 90 jobs are capped, the current exception being marksmanship, throwing, and polearm, and obviously better skill up rates benefit the consumable skills since it means less time and money shooting arrows/bolts.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I know what gambler's fallacy is, but the way you explained it is completely confusing.

Also, if RNG means Ring for you, why don't you actually type R-I-N-G instead of knocking off the "i". That just makes you look lazy. However, if you are talking about Ranger, then we are both having different conversations.

You are right though, TotM staffs have a goal, and a long one, and one that is traceable. Ring, however, doesn't. Every brown chest has a 1/20 shot in being the ring. However, since the rate of brown chests are common, and we are talking about a 1/20 chance overall, I still stand by what I said that it is faster to get a ring than to complete a TotM staff from start to finish. It takes somebody who would play this game from start-finish, only pausing for RR, food, and sleep, probably 3 days to finish a staff. Some staffs probably longer, depending on luck of weather. You could get the ring in an hour, in 5 hours, in 10 hours if your luck is really bad. Although I don't have any stats to back this up, I think that, by my own observations, the average time it would take for a person to get a ring would be about 10 hours, with a standard deviation of 3 hours. 30 hours is just one extreme example, along with 3 minutes being on the other extreme. But the problem is, you only HEAR about the extremes. Not that many people (not enough to make an actual sample of the population to make a better determination to see how long it really would take) would say how long it actually took them, or be accurate either.

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Yet what you are saying is completely 100% irrelevant to the topic at hand. The ring has no baring whatsoever on whether or not to give us an atma to do the same thing. If it did, the ring wouldn't exist simply because of kupowers, or GoV itself, or the newbie hat. Just because something is in the game already does not mean something else that does the same thing can't be added.

We're happy for you and your 3 minute ring, but stop being a drama queen. It doesn't mean it's that easy for everyone. Technically speaking a person could live in there for the next ten years and never get the ring because the system never hit that "jackpot" number to drop it. It's extremely unlikely, but not impossible.

I'll also take this time to say that apparently this thread is not pointless in the sense that the mines is constantly overrun with people chasing the ring, but it is pointless in the sense than it is very unlikely for SE to add anything more to Abyssea aside from adjustments. New Dynamis and voidwatch should make that truth very apparent.

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Originally Posted by Lutschfactor

wow go skill up in a real place not abyssea. and anyone who has a smn knows its faster to cap it using ur smn abalities not just sitting there using the smn call and thats it. go do something productive and stop wasting out time in these pointless threads. go skill up and stop bitching about how u cant skill up coz u have lvl 5 skills and ur in abyssea trying to skill up.

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Actually Abyssea is the best place to skill up due to DA and TA atmas. Skilling up there myself has proven to blow away anywhere else and I've gone so far as to abuse kupowers + GoV while it was in effect.

I suppose magic skill ups would be better suited with kupower or GoV in place, though.

ya it is a good place to skill up. if u havent lvled in abyssea from 30-90. of course anyone who is capped knows really u gotta do it on NMs really to get anywhere anymore on skill ups. i capped parrying on NM's and on onions in abyssea altep. there is no need for an atma that lets u skill up.

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Originally Posted by Auredant

A crutch for the weak perhaps...but not overpowered. So I agree that it is dramatic as skill gain has never been an issue outside of maybe parry/guard.

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For most things its easy, I agree, just time consuming, but at the same time... Have you tried skilling up an automaton lately?

I spent about 6 Hours in Abyssea farming Dark rings and my automaton only got about 2 Melee Skill levels, and he was punching the entire time.

hes about 100 under cap atm. given that time on average and skill rate, thats 300 hours of non-stop meleeing to cap my automaton. Thats also not including Ranger, and Mage frame, Who actually cast/ranged slower than a Valoredge Melee, so it'd likely take much more time.

While for most it might be "for the weak", but for a puppet master it seems like something that would help me tremendously -.-;

(Yah this is like, 3 pages late or something but oh well)


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On the prousse ring topic, Pretty sure that doesnt effect automatons as well. >___> I mean, Thanks to GoV bonuses, i took club from 250 to Capped on PLD in about a total of ~12 combined hours, (out of the 40+ I spent in Horutoto trying to get Fishers Torque, which FYI is till dont have).

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Originally Posted by Olor

I heard that from a friend who has never taken their summoner into Abyssea as far as I know. They said they counted once how many actions it took to get a skill up - it was like summoning something 50 times to get 0.1.

I know even for my mage jobs where I am casting without huge timers between when I can do an action (isn't it like 45 seconds) my skills still don't keep up with leveling, even SOLO leveling. So it seems believable that raising summoning skill is a pain.

Honestly, lose the rage. No one I know enjoys skilling up. It is quite possibly the most boring thing possible. So what if people would prefer to spend their time in game doing fun stuff versus auto-attacking crabs.

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I solo'd SMN all the way to 75 way before Abyssea was even thought of. Which means that I leveled it all the way to 75 before the BPs gave you skillups. And I got it to cap skill before that too.

Yeah, it sucks, but you know what? You got it easy now. Just go to Abyssea, suck at Rages, have weak Wards, but continue to use them. Nobody should skillup SMN magic JUST by Summon/Release method anymore.

Also, you now know somebody who enjoyed skilling up. I skilled up all the possible weapons a WAR can use, JUST for Blue Procs, including going way beyond the WSNM stages so I would have more accuracy to proc blue faster.