A request to the Development Team in regarding "Shoha" and "Meditation "

[Kitfox]

I wonder why they insist on making things like Anatman and Meditate be tied to actor/server ticks when they could use the same technology as MCH Flamethrower so that it ticks consistently from the point when it's cast. Honestly, the server tick nonsense is the main reason I haven't really touched leveling MNK and now I guess I'll have to add SAM to the same list.

[SpeckledBurd]

I wonder why they insist on making things like Anatman and Meditate be tied to actor/server ticks when they could use the same technology as MCH Flamethrower so that it ticks consistently from the point when it's cast. Honestly, the server tick nonsense is the main reason I haven't really touched leveling MNK and now I guess I'll have to add SAM to the same list.

My guess is they designed Meditation and Anatman to be used exclusively during downtime, while they designed Flamethrower to be used actively in combat. I doubt they even realize that Meditation fishing was already a thing in Stormblood and that this is just a logical expansion on it since its use wasn't as prevalent as Monk using GL Recovery Tools as a means of spamming Tornado Kick. And this strikes me as being just like the TK Rotation all over again, the devs haven't considered how the tools they've put on jobs will be used outside of the use their intended uses, whereas we're willing to do basically anything in the name of optimization even if it utterly ruins the way a job feels.

[gintokiygo]

In re: Meditate

The slide says

The implication in this wording is that Meditate grants a stack on use, something the old version doesn't do.

While that would be nice if the devs say 40 seconds per shoha then meditate would need to be completely different or it's the same and the devs made an oversight.

[Shurrikhan]

Sam's rotation will still be clunky as long as Tsubame will exist in its current form. Not Shoha, and it saddens me to see that the devs didn't see that. And the new "fix" for Shoha is a nice idea, but Meditate Fishing is horrible because of the way tick rate works. It's sad to see that they found a way to give us something that already wasn't working correctly for monk.

That's largely what I was aiming for here.

Alas, while some parts of the SAM forums can identify the real sources of rotational clunk, the others have been all to happy too hype over insignificant changes or target the completely tangential (and equally insignificant)....

[Shurrikhan]

SAM's rotation is strict, not clunky. Tsubame is fine as it is and the forced 60 second burst cycle was developer intended. Giving us back Hagakure is what removed the clunkyness of 5.0 SAM.

Are you honestly claiming that lingering Sen between pulls was the only thing that ever made ShB SAM clunky? That's all currently Hagakure is "good" for, after all, and it's a damage loss even then.

Shoha's fix is a welcome one. One that was required in some form because the skill was simply not used by the vast, vast majority of players.

The only reason for Shoha not to be used is if people were literally never touching Meditate, even to weave it. And that's simply not the case.

literally no SAMs I've seen are complaining about Tsubame or the rotation.

Then you should open your eyes. It's been frequent complaint since ShB release ("Somehow even more constraining than Hagakure and a hell of a lot more clunky"). And if your "literally no SAMs" isn't hyperbolic then you need look no further than... this thread.

[Endariel]

Akhem, hagakure is actively used in rotation if you opt for 29 or 30 gcd rotation as you will have time for 2 or 3 filler gcds

[Shurrikhan]

Akhem, hagakure is actively used in rotation if you opt for 29 or 30 gcd rotation as you will have time for 2 or 3 filler gcds

Which is a far greater loss than simply using Yaten-Enpi 2-3 times to reach the same rotational length. Each Yaten-Enpi costs 20 potency.

On the other hand, every 3-sen Hagakure has an opportunity cost of a Kaiten Midare (1200) - 4/5ths of a Shinten (256) - one average GCD of potency (426)--or 518 potency--just to gain 192 potency, reaching a net value of - 326 potency. Yes, negative 326. Every time you use Hagakure, you may as well have done absolutely nothing for 77% of a GCD.

[Eliadil]

No, the clunkyness came from either a) drifting CDs or b) Over-writting Sen. Haga took care of that and made the feel of the class so, so much better, along with ending the actual clunkyness in rotation and during downtime. Those were the 2 biggest feel and performance issues with 5.0 SAM. So ya, I am claiming that. But please, tell me more about how a class you barely play is "clunky."

Keeping uptime and keeping the loop going after downtime is a real issue. The real issues are talked about.

SAM's rotation is fine. Tsubame is fine. The class, PLAYED PROPERLY, is silky smooth and lacks clunk.

So, if I'm correct you're just saying that Samuraï has a smooth rotation if played properly, and saying that keeping uptime and avoiding downtime because it does enable a cooldown drift is the real issue. So, a Rotation where missing a GCD due to mechanics makes our burst drift away from the buff window is a correct rotation ? And the fact that the new Haga is a dps loss when you erase the filler Sen is a good idea ?

Even when the rotation forces you to use a filler (so a somewhat dps loss) in order to make Tsubame line up correctly ?

Furthermore, you're also advocating that the rotational issues are talked about. Seeing the 5.1 changes announced, except if they make Shoha a Weaponskill, I doubt we'll see a decent filler which will make the rotation not require wasting a spell in order to line up Tsubame, so I hope you'll pardon me for doubting about that part

Even tho it means that you've played Stormblood Sam, so you do know that there is a huge, huge difference between 4.X sam and 5.X, which is the reason why we are sad about this, because we lost every tiny bit of flexibility since we have to line up a GCD that is the end of our 9 part combo, every minute without missing any GCD otherwise we're just losing damage and drifting away our burst.

Before, you could just line up whenever your group used a burst window because you do not lose dps for doing so. Now if you're out of it because you had to step out (let's say because a sad mechanic forced you to stand away from the boss to avoid an aoe like in E4S Phase 2) then you're just screwed. This, is what I define as "clunky", when you have to stick to the strict 60sec loop and you're getting punished by a dps loss if a mechanics forces you to drift cooldown. Because yeah, Hagakure is a dps loss atm, I think Shurrikhan explained it well. My point is that even tho you're using Haga to burst in time, you're still losing way too much damage in using Hagakure because you did a mechanic properly.

And I hope nobody here will ask you about your savage clears. We're here to talk and exchange ideas and opinions. Not compare the size of our katanas.

[Shurrikhan]

No, the clunkyness came from either a) drifting CDs or b) Over-writting Sen. Haga took care of that and made the feel of the class so, so much better, along with ending the actual clunkyness in rotation and during downtime. Those were the 2 biggest feel and performance issues with 5.0 SAM.

If "optimal play" involves taking what would be a 326 potency loss if TG had even just a 5-second grace period, just to meet the rigid constraints of that skill, that is clunky. It'd be far better instead to simply remove the limitation that enforces the loss and then balance around that removal.

Think about it in terms of any other job, such as if Warrior had a skill which increases Critical Strike bonus damage by 20% (e.g. from 50% to 60%), but deals no damage. The skill would be obligatory for Berserk/Inner Release, but an absolute trap otherwise. And that still wouldn't be as convoluted of design as what TG-Hagakure applies to SAM's toolkit.

Put simply, we shouldn't need to use an anti-potency ability just to use our strongest ppm increase. I'd much rather, say, have Hagakure be potency-neutral (worth +362 potency) and Tsubame-Gaeshi be affectable by, but no longer benefit automatically from, Kaiten (worth -256 potency). Heck, that resulting +106 ppm would be almost exactly what we need to hit MNK rDPS. That way, TG does not require Hagakure and Hagakure does not require TG. Both skills would be smoothly usable in their own rights, and at a much wider span of SkS breakpoints.

[Acece]

I hope they just get rid of the mediate creating stacks and tie it to seigen/third eye. it would fix my two biggest gripes with sam, that is how pitiful optimizing third eye, and also mediate fishing.