Warrior: End Game optimum self heal combos, and overall damage mitigation.

[JormungandrVanagandr]

Stuff

They do have less survivability. What they have more of, however, is being self-sufficient. That's the only reason you can finish the last 10% of a boss without a healer. And I'm assuming this is during an AK run. I can give anecdotal evidence that Warriors are awesome too - Both DPS and the healer died to the Demon Wall and I solo'd the last 30% of it. It's awesome having 3 sub-par players fawning over you like you're a King pulling that off, but the fact still remains - we suck for anything after Garuda.

SE designed a class specifically for being an off-tank, making us definitively inferior in all regards for anything that requires single mob, high damage tanking.

[Lhun]

...

The absolute maximum amount of time it takes to build up wrath is 60 seconds against all cases.
Berzerk + enhanced crit from wrath + release + bath + SC = a ton of health.

You also act as if you can only SC and not overpower AS WELL during the bath duration.

You can use both, one after the other, and get the benefit of overpower - because bloodbath is not a single event skill. It has a duration. Couple it with berzerk and vengance and you're laughing all the way to a full health bar.

Oh I would like to mention that vengeance procs on every directed action an enemy does to you. This includes spells. Go try vengeance + bath on an elemental.

Another cool thing is the fact that there is almost no downside to turning off defiance after popping a wrath ability, to then to pop a non-wrath based self heal for the increased bonus that having more attack power gives you - but only if Infuriate is not available.

For example, in a case where the timer for Infurate is down, AND after popping a IB, for example:
Toggle defiance, berzerk, second wind. Toggle defiance back on. The 25% bonus to attack power makes the wind quite a bit stronger.

I know berserk grants wrath too, and this is situation based, but it's an option.

[HiirNoivl]

Defiance-dancing on WAR? I've heard of Cleric Stance Dancing...

Woah man, you're...

Excuse me I need to add that to my list of things to try.

I know you can use Steel Cyclone with Overpower. My point was he was responding to me saying "spamming Overpower" with LOL DOYOUEVENSTEELCYCLONE? If you have Wrath V then obviously you pop Steel Cyclone first and if you are feeling really frisky you can Infuriate and Steel Cyclone again! Then what do you do? Overpower Overpower Overpower Overpower Overpower Overpower. If you try to build back up to Steel Cyclone you will do substantially less damage.

I'll even show you the math, cause I'm such a nice guy. Let's say you have a group of 3 mobs (the smallest that would even warrant using Steel or Overpower). Overpower has 130 potency and over 3 mobs that's 390 potency. Let's say we are starting fresh with zero Wrath because you already popped your first 2 Steel Cyclones. So you need to build back up to Wrath V which means Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder/Maim > BB/Storm's. That grants 2 Wrath, so let's do it again for 4 Wrath. I'll throw you a bone and say you saved Vengeance for the last Wrath stack so the very next move you do is Steel Cyclone. So in total thats (150+200+280)x2+600x3 potency. Overpower would have done 390x7. Overpower totals to 2730 potency where as building Wrath V and Steel Cyclone totals 1860. Technically building Wrath V would total less damage because you need Defiance to build Wrath, where as Overpower spam you can drop Defiance. So regardless of whether you are building hate or just trying to do as much damage as possible Overpower spam is the way to go on anything larger than 2 mobs.

You didn't take into account the buffs you get from Maim or the increase in damage you get from Storm's Eye. Which effectively negates the damage nerf from Defiance and increases the power of SC substantial.

Including the Crit Rate buff from Wrath V and any other buffs that I maintain, you will say that SC beats Overpower spam... plus it's free (no TP loss) and Instant (can be popped mid combo)

EDIT: Wait... I forgot. Post a video to prove me wrong. kthxbye

But, you completely missed the point. We're not telling you to build BACK to cyclone. Bloodbath, cyclone, infuriate, cyclone, and then overpower spam until the end of the duration of bloodbath. Maybe even throw in internal release after the second cyclone to build wrath faster, and get more health back from the more frequent crits.

edit, oh, yes, you were saying that. I don't think HiirNoivl was suggesting that you don't spam overpower a bit against groups while building back up Wrath V. Also, against groups, Vengeance, having maim up, and even potentially release increases the damage from bath to a very, very respectable level.

It almost sounds like you were backpeddling after assuming you can only apply bloodbath to one move.

I've moved away from spamming Overpower quite a bit but I still do use it. The Crit Rate on Over power is buffed too and it hits even harder than what people have so generously afforded it.

However, the cost to TP is so high that my move to Steel Cyclone was Organic. I wasn't trying to test SC when I found out how great it was.

I was simply out of TP.

The reason why warrior is a better multi-target tank is while flash and overpower both hold hate in groups of enemies (also, flash's hate might be based on total attack power, (or weapon damage) of which WAR has more), overpower has the following benefits:

5) You gain wrath from it.

Gotta stop ya there. Overpower does not grant Wrath. Which is another reason why I no-likey that much.

Going back to Defiance Dancing - Vengeance + Bloodbath + Overpower does yield a lot of health. Unfortunately, I think it would be edged out by the lost HP while being out of defiance, spike damage can kill you. - not as useful during boss fights, definitely viable while trash/add tanking.

When I'm running with Relic +1 DD the last thing I want to do is switch off the Enmity buff of Defiance when tanking trash mobs. I will lose hate faster than I lost my last set of contacts.

For a moment, after hate is established it might be okay.

Most attack and healing abilities do not do an exact amount of damage/healing. There's a median amount of damage/healing that they do based on weapon damage, STR/MND and DET. Then the the final damage/heal that actually happens is within something like 5% of that #. I have tested this further for myself, and after about 20 casts with/without Convalescence, Convalescence does not seem to have any effect whatsoever (roughly 350-370 for me with or without Convalescence, give or take a couple points).

Either way, if it crits, second wind is ok. If it doesn't crit, berserk adds a whopping 150 hp to that heal. Big Deal. You know a PLD can cast cure on himself? You don't see PLD freaking out about that because they don't care about a 150 hp heal even tho a 150 hp heal is better for a PLD than it is for a WAR (due to damage redux). Why? Because it's not super amazing and doesn't actually rock. It's ok as a supplemental when you need healing right now, but it's very weak on its own (and not great by any regard).

Anyhow, I hope the bug report pans out. Every little bit helps I suppose.

I use Second Wind whenever it's up, and I'm sure that adds up but you're right. Convalescence does 0 for any of WARs Self heals only for the heals cast on you. PLD can cast heal on himself, but the cast time makes doing that pretty silly and the resulting heal is less than Second Wind on a my WAR which usually Crits for about 700 for a good one and 1000 for a great one. (I crit Second Wind a lot. )

Defiance does NOT reduce attack power. It's is mind numbingly easy to test this and you did not. As such, being in or out of defiance has 0 effect on second wind. It's also insanely easy to test this and you did not.

Also, swapping off and on Defiance DOES have a detrimental effect. First, you are not generating wrath with defiance off (no +heal bonus, no +crit bonus, no closer to being able to IB). Second, when swapping off Defiance you cap your HP at your normal HP value. However, when you switch Defiance back on, you do not get that extra HP back. You just have an empty gap of HP that needs to be filled.

So if you've got external healing, flipping Defiance off caps the amount your healers can actually heal you to 80% of your Defiance hp total until you flip it back on. Defiance doesn't effect Inner Beast, and it doesn't effect Second Wind. So all you get from this move is a 25% boost to the somewhat mediocre Bloodbath healing and a 25% boost to the thoroughly lackluster healing from storm's path. Personally I don't think the additional amount you gain from either of those abilities can offset the lower hp cap + any additional healing received from wrath stacks + any additional crit received from wrath stacks + being closer to infuriate so you can IB again. Swapping Defiance off to increase your DPS is one thing (and only if Unchained is down), but swapping off Defiance to boost your self heals is not a good idea.

Before writing this off as a "good or bad" idea, I mean to try it first. I can already think of ways it will not work. However, we already know of a boss where switching off defiance is borderline required.

"Demon Wall"

I'm pretty sure that will not be the only place where switching off Defiance is a good idea.

Storm's Path is almost negligible. It's better than nothing as long as you have a big threat cushion and aren't running out of TP (why it costs 90 TP is beyond me), but it's only going to heal you for something like 150-200 every 3rd hit in a combo (at best, if you're not doing anything else whatsoever). PLD can cast cure and basically get the same amount of HP back so it's still a net loss vs. a PLD who can pretty much fast blade -> riot blade -> cure indefinitely if they felt like it (but only after they've emptied their mana spamming cure). And it's not even necessarily a 150-200 hp net gain when used in blood bath since you're using the weakest of the 3 combos we have to pull it off, thus actually getting a little less out of bloodbath.

And not that it makes much difference, but storm's path(250) is behind both butcher's block(280) and storm's eye(270) in potency.

I'm still trying to figure out a place for Storm's Path on my bar. There's got to be a reason it's there.

So... you're amazing, and you're far better than most of us, so we should just listen to you on how to play ... right?

I find this to be an ENORMOUSLY arrogant statement for you to make. Most of your novel suggestions are just you spouting stuff you believe to be true with little to no testing whatsoever. Your posts show a limited understanding of exactly how many of the WAR class abilities function, and you're big on feeling while low on #s. You probably shouldn't act like you have any actual idea what's going on with this class or how well it functions compared to a PLD (because you don't appear to).



I find the point of many WAR threads is to attempt to prove to the devs (and eachother) that there is something wrong that cannot be uncovered by experimentation and additional research.

I think the point of this thread is to prove how awesome a WAR you are, and how much better you know this class than the rest of us whiners, and as Yoshi P said "L2P". Unfortunately, because all you've done is spout a bunch of stuff we already know supplemented with additional nonsense you made up and/or didn't bother to test, I'd say you've failed miserably in this regard.

Throwing out ideas even if they are wrong isn't necessarily a bad thing (so long as the wrong ideas are corrected). The problem with I have with most of people's critique of WAR is that it is not accompanied by any actual Data.

Case in point, someone claims to have tested Crit Rate on a test dummy 1000 times, but never said if they were on WAR... and they never posted it. So I have a problem with this. If I post data and you dispute, I'd like to see corresponding data that disputes mine.

I'm tired of the "You're wrong because I say so" posts.

[Lhun]

They do have less survivability. What they have more of, however, is being self-sufficient. That's the only reason you can finish the last 10% of a boss without a healer.

I have a feeling that there is currently simply a lot more content more suited to pld or dual-tanking setups. When we start seeing more content like Ultima Weapon and Wall, that require you to do fast damage to the boss before a pre-defined wipe point, while still maintaining hate the whole time, WAR as a "needed" tank for certain runs will start to be felt. 5-10% more overall damage adds up over a long time, and also, the current curtana vs baruva testing is using "max vit builds" and does not take crit or high STR into account.

[Lhun]

Defiance-dancing on WAR? I've heard of Cleric Stance Dancing...

Woah man, you're...

Excuse me I need to add that to my list of things to try.

I like you a lot, and I think you're the only player who gets what I'm saying, (who has proven it with videos) and who has an optimistic outlook as I do, and is willing to test things.

This should go to prove to the rest of you that there are things you haven't tried, even someone like HiirNoivl who has been playing as long as I have (please look at the join date on both of our accounts) and that you don't know everything yet.

[CurlyBruce]

...

I know you can use Steel Cyclone with Overpower. My point was he was responding to me saying "spamming Overpower" with LOL DOYOUEVENSTEELCYCLONE? If you have Wrath V then obviously you pop Steel Cyclone first and if you are feeling really frisky you can Infuriate and Steel Cyclone again! Then what do you do? Overpower Overpower Overpower Overpower Overpower Overpower. If you try to build back up to Steel Cyclone you will do substantially less damage.

I'll even show you the math, cause I'm such a nice guy. Let's say you have a group of 3 mobs (the smallest that would even warrant using Steel or Overpower). Overpower has 130 potency and over 3 mobs that's 390 potency. Let's say we are starting fresh with zero Wrath because you already popped your first 2 Steel Cyclones. So you need to build back up to Wrath V which means Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder/Maim > BB/Storm's. That grants 2 Wrath, so let's do it again for 4 Wrath. I'll throw you a bone and say you saved Vengeance for the last Wrath stack so the very next move you do is Steel Cyclone. So in total thats (150+200+280)x2+600x3 potency. Overpower would have done 390x7. Overpower totals to 2730 potency where as building Wrath V and Steel Cyclone totals 1860. Technically building Wrath V would total less damage because you need Defiance to build Wrath, where as Overpower spam you can drop Defiance. So regardless of whether you are building hate or just trying to do as much damage as possible Overpower spam is the way to go on anything larger than 2 mobs.

Edit:
Maim buff applies to Overpower as well and lasts 24 seconds which is more than enough time to get 7 Overpowers in. If you use Heavy > Maim > Storm's Eye > Heavy > Sunder > B.Block Storm's Eye Debuff will only be on one mob and only the second combo will get the boost. For shits and giggles let's recalculate. 130*1.2*3*7 v. (150+190+270)*1.2*.75+(150+200+280)*1.2*1.1*.75+200*1.2*1.1+200*1.2*2 = 3276 v. 1916.

It almost sounds like you were backpeddling after assuming you can only apply bloodbath to one move.

I'm not backpedaling at all. I asked him how WAR was better for Multi-target tanking when all a Multi-target tank has to do is hold hate on everything. Both Flash and Overpower are sufficient for this. Bloodbath works on everything you do that deals damage for the 30s duration. But there's the thing it works on Overpower too. So whichever combo works up to be more damage is going to get the most benefit from Bloodbath. Overpower spam does substantially more damage than working up to another Steel Cyclone so Bloodbath will heal for substantially more. There is nothing to stop you from using Vengeance with Bloodbath while spamming Overpower either. Vengeance does not have to be used in Defiance.

[Lhun]

So many things wrong with the logic here. I don't know where to begin.

If you found something that works for you and your group, excellent. don't presume to 'educate' other people though. Looking at your lodestone profile you're in all AF and have an HQ Bardiche.

Not really convincing you've done Titan, completed, and have the experience needed to teach other players on how to survive with their gimped to shit class.

Guess that darklight is invisible. lol.

Stop using the lodestone as an example for how advanced a player is. It takes semi-random snapshots of the state of your character. My lodestone profile had GLD 23 in it yesterday.

[Lhun]

(some excellent math, thank you)

But, you completely missed the point. We're not telling you to build BACK to cyclone. Bloodbath, cyclone, infuriate, cyclone, and then overpower spam until the end of the duration of bloodbath. Maybe even throw in internal release after the second cyclone to build wrath faster, and get more health back from the more frequent crits.

edit, oh, yes, you were saying that. I don't think HiirNoivl was suggesting that you don't spam overpower a bit against groups while building back up Wrath V. Also, against groups, Vengeance, having maim up, and even potentially release increases the damage from bath to a very, very respectable level.

It almost sounds like you were backpeddling after assuming you can only apply bloodbath to one move.

[Lhun]

I asked him how WAR was better for Multi-target tanking when all a Multi-target tank has to do is hold hate on everything.

The reason why warrior is a better multi-target tank is while flash and overpower both hold hate in groups of enemies (also, flash's hate might be based on total attack power, (or weapon damage) of which WAR has more), overpower has the following benefits:

1) is a Cone with a slightly greater effective distance then flash,
2) deals damage to the enemies it hits.
3) with bloodbath gives you health.
4) does not often require you to re-position as long as as your placement is good based on add-on pop location.
5) We can also use flash, and as such, we don't run out of TP, or MP, and can generate buckets more hate than every other class on groups of mobs.

Going back to Defiance Dancing - Vengeance + Bloodbath + Overpower does yield a lot of health. Unfortunately, I think it would be edged out by the lost HP while being out of defiance, spike damage can kill you. - not as useful during boss fights, definitely viable while trash/add tanking - and depending on your crit rate, you are definitely getting more out of the wrath you get from it.

[JormungandrVanagandr]

I must be doing something terribly wrong if Overpower generates Wrath for you.