The anti FFXI job/class comparison thread

[Yisi]

So many people compare FFXIV with FFXI and ask why the job/class system's are not the same. To this I say: Why do you want to play the same game with different content? Does anyone else remember not being able to solo, being stuck in whatever job/class you were playing with near zero customization, and not being able to join with others if you didn't meet certain job/class setup requirements? Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in FFXI, but I sure as hell do not miss spending the majority of my online time sitting in Jueno waiting for a WHM or a PLD to show up in party search. I don't miss being stuck in a strict, rigid role with no room for customization. FFXIV has so much more potential with creating a unique character and I think it would be a shame to do away with that in favor of a job/class system like FFXI. Just my 2 cents, please throw in yours as well.

[Wolfie]

Clearly defined and unique jobs with specific roles > homogeneous, boring classes that all work the same

[Kilta_Firelotus]

Clearly defined and unique jobs with specific roles > homogeneous, boring classes that all work the same

defined classes = min/maxer rule the game with elitist mindsets and long party waits

ffxiv classes= anyone can fit any role, no wait time.


only thing has failed is the community forcing the ffxi mindset.
And yes, ffxi jobs in ffxiv will pretty much make ffxiv the same as ffxi.
I hated ffxi in how things ended up. Long waits to form a part or to join a party. Said wait taking months of playing 6 hrs a day everyday.

Sorry no thanks. I like the system just ppl need to stop force feedinbg the ffxi mindset while at the same time orduing ppl NOT to compare ffxiv to ffxi. When infact they trying ti force ffxiv to be ffxi.

[Wolfie]

defined classes = min/maxer rule the game with elitist mindsets and long party waits

ffxiv classes= anyone can fit any role, no wait time.


only thing has failed is the community forcing the ffxi mindset.
And yes, ffxi jobs in ffxiv will pretty much make ffxiv the same as ffxi.
I hated ffxi in how things ended up. Long waits to form a part or to join a party. Said wait taking months of playing 6 hrs a day everyday.

Sorry no thanks. I like the system just ppl need to stop force feedinbg the ffxi mindset while at the same time orduing ppl NOT to compare ffxiv to ffxi. When infact they trying ti force ffxiv to be ffxi.

Late reply, but there was very little work put into balancing FFXI's classes and fixing leveling, at least up until I quit mid-TOAU. Unique classes with defined roles does not always imply imbalance; take a look at how well WOW has been balancing classes, and they technically have 30 of them.

[Duelle]

Late reply, but there was very little work put into balancing FFXI's classes and fixing leveling, at least up until I quit mid-TOAU. Unique classes with defined roles does not always imply imbalance; take a look at how well WOW has been balancing classes, and they technically have 30 of them.

The trick in WoW was making the different specs acceptable for PvP and endgame raiding. This was mostly painful when it came to the hybrids, since during the early days they were the ones that had (not wanted or decided to, but had) to spec to heal to be of any use. This is why now you have the hybrids with multiple specs that are acceptable to some degree.

As long as SE can achieve something akin to that, I think we'll be fine.

[Wolfie]

The trick in WoW was making the different specs acceptable for PvP and endgame raiding. This was mostly painful when it came to the hybrids, since during the early days they were the ones that had (not wanted or decided to, but had) to spec to heal to be of any use. This is why now you have the hybrids with multiple specs that are acceptable to some degree.

As long as SE can achieve something akin to that, I think we'll be fine.

And SE will hopefully do the same kind of ongoing class balance with FFXIV. After how ridiculous WOW's second expansion got in terms of class balance, Blizzard put class balance at the top of the list of things they have to do, and it's been pretty nice. All DPS/DD classes are within 5% of each other, with some exceptions that are patched within 2-3 months, all healers perform well in small scale stuff and only differ in large scale fights, and tanks are viable everywhere, with strength in different areas. They even took steps to ensure that the tank:healerPS ratio of specs is close to 1:1:3, the standard party model in WOW; they have 4 tank specs, 4 healer specs, and ~14 viable PVE damage specs.

I really hope we can see that kind of effort put into class balance for FFXIV.

[Preypacer]

defined classes = min/maxer rule the game with elitist mindsets and long party waits

ffxiv classes= anyone can fit any role, no wait time.


only thing has failed is the community forcing the ffxi mindset.
And yes, ffxi jobs in ffxiv will pretty much make ffxiv the same as ffxi.
I hated ffxi in how things ended up. Long waits to form a part or to join a party. Said wait taking months of playing 6 hrs a day everyday.

Sorry no thanks. I like the system just ppl need to stop force feedinbg the ffxi mindset while at the same time orduing ppl NOT to compare ffxiv to ffxi. When infact they trying ti force ffxiv to be ffxi.

Thing is, it's not a black-or-white, "either/or" situation, as some seem to be characterizing it.

I would welcome the flexibility of a system like XIV's... However, I do not welcome it to the extent that identifiable roles fly out the window because everyone can be/do everything at the same time.

That results in one thing: homogenization.

In fact, it would likely lead to even fewer options perceived as "viable" than you saw even in XI, because everyone shares the same overall pool of available skills at the same time. The only differentiating element is what your main class is at a given time.

In XI, for each Job, there was a set of different job/subjob combinations, as well as gear/food setups based on what role you were playing for that particular setup. Some were rather rigid (which was more about people having tunnel-vision than with the game itself). So, for each of the 20 jobs, you had a series of different ways you could play it. Sure, some setups were preferred or even demanded in some circumstances.. but again, that was people trying to keep the game as predictable as possible without deviating from what worked (e.g. what the walkthroughs and guides said).

I have zero doubt that the same scenario will play out in XIV. The only difference is, it'll be even more limiting than in XI. Why? In XI, even if you elected to "follow the online guides" and build out your character by following a template to the letter, you were still playing a job that had a specific playstyle and a defined role, or multiple roles in some cases. If you preferred mages, no matter what your setup, you were always ultimately a Mage, and that's the role you were chosen for. A Mage wouldn't typically be asked to fill a primary melee DPS role (save for some oddball out-of-the-ordinary circumstances).

In XIV's system, because everyone has access to the same pool of skills, regardless of class, min/maxers will eventually end up reducing the number of unique builds down to a handful of "standard optimal builds", likely built around filling traditional roles.

When that happens, I bet people will be wishing XIV had something closer to XI's system, where at least there was more variety by virtue of 20 unique jobs with several possible subjob combos for each, instead of a relative handful of builds due to XIV's setup.

I don't think SE needs to "lose" the openness of its current system. I do think they need to bring in more restrictions on secondary skill use, or, perhaps some enticing and very substantial benefits to combining "like" skills (dd with dd, magic with magic, etc)...

This way, people can still find a playstyle or role they enjoy playing at a given moment... such as in a party, doing a HNM, etc... but still have the flexibility to switch it up if they need, or want to while soloing, etc.

[Duelle]

In XIV's system, because everyone has access to the same pool of skills, regardless of class, min/maxers will eventually end up reducing the number of unique builds down to a handful of "standard optimal builds", likely built around filling traditional roles.

This hinges more on how encounters are designed. Granted, class designed is the other half of the puzzle, but encounters and enemy difficulty are also a factor here

The aim should ideally be that a class set up to deal damage should be able to do so in line with what the devs intend to be damage. Otherwise you get things like being MRD for one encounter, but having to switch to PUG for the next encounter, and then change to THM because the next one favors ranged more than melee and so on.

I don't think SE needs to "lose" the openness of its current system. I do think they need to bring in more restrictions on secondary skill use, or, perhaps some enticing and very substantial benefits to combining "like" skills (dd with dd, magic with magic, etc)

I think it should come down to what the coming job system will do to overall playstyles. I'll be happy if a damage set MRD, a damage-set THM and a damage-set LNC are interchangeable for a DD slot in a party without forcing anyone to change classes for a particular task. Not to mention hybrids have to be kept in mind this time around.

[Physic]

Thing is, it's not a black-or-white, "either/or" situation, as some seem to be characterizing it.

I would welcome the flexibility of a system like XIV's... However, I do not welcome it to the extent that identifiable roles fly out the window because everyone can be/do everything at the same time.

That results in one thing: homogenization.

In fact, it would likely lead to even fewer options perceived as "viable" than you saw even in XI, because everyone shares the same overall pool of available skills at the same time. The only differentiating element is what your main class is at a given time.

In XI, for each Job, there was a set of different job/subjob combinations, as well as gear/food setups based on what role you were playing for that particular setup. Some were rather rigid (which was more about people having tunnel-vision than with the game itself). So, for each of the 20 jobs, you had a series of different ways you could play it. Sure, some setups were preferred or even demanded in some circumstances.. but again, that was people trying to keep the game as predictable as possible without deviating from what worked (e.g. what the walkthroughs and guides said).

I have zero doubt that the same scenario will play out in XIV. The only difference is, it'll be even more limiting than in XI. Why? In XI, even if you elected to "follow the online guides" and build out your character by following a template to the letter, you were still playing a job that had a specific playstyle and a defined role, or multiple roles in some cases. If you preferred mages, no matter what your setup, you were always ultimately a Mage, and that's the role you were chosen for. A Mage wouldn't typically be asked to fill a primary melee DPS role (save for some oddball out-of-the-ordinary circumstances).

In XIV's system, because everyone has access to the same pool of skills, regardless of class, min/maxers will eventually end up reducing the number of unique builds down to a handful of "standard optimal builds", likely built around filling traditional roles.

When that happens, I bet people will be wishing XIV had something closer to XI's system, where at least there was more variety by virtue of 20 unique jobs with several possible subjob combos for each, instead of a relative handful of builds due to XIV's setup.

I don't think SE needs to "lose" the openness of its current system. I do think they need to bring in more restrictions on secondary skill use, or, perhaps some enticing and very substantial benefits to combining "like" skills (dd with dd, magic with magic, etc)...

This way, people can still find a playstyle or role they enjoy playing at a given moment... such as in a party, doing a HNM, etc... but still have the flexibility to switch it up if they need, or want to while soloing, etc.

na, i have played straight up freeform games, with no limits at all, and there are a lot of builds, and people are constantly coming up with new ones. Also the time required to get the skills mean some people will never delve into certain things. I dont care if thaum 70 has a great move, im not going to level thaum to 70 to get it for my pug, unless for some reason i really enjoy playing thaum.
Looking at champions online, and guild wars, both have very open systems, champions insanely so, and there is still a ton of unique builds. Sure there a online guides to builds that work for specific stuff, and make it easier, but thats the same thing as any game, the large majority of people in a freeform game do what they want, and enjoy experimenting and adapting thier charachters.
Also with a focus on smaller parties, and small party content, there are different builds, a great build for duoing is not the great build for trio, is not the great build for 8 people. I mean im basically a pugilist first and foremost, im not going to be the ultimate amalgam, but i do enjoy taking a couple skills here and there that enhance my gameplay. And its really good that you can adjust yourself to situations, create a build that is a little more self sufficient if you dont have a healer, for example.

[Honz]

SE has already announced that they will be making class changes, more importantly giving classes abilities that define them.

People compare FFXIV with FFXI because they're made by the same company and even started with the same producer.

And most likely this game is going to move in FFXI's direction since FFXI's original Dev team has replaced the FFXIV team.