[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Malakhim]

I don't know about most of you, but when I'm playing a video game, I want to be engaged and focused on the game, not watching TV or doing anything else. If you find yourself doing just that in any MMO, then that should probably be indicative of a huge problem with MMOs in general, which is that people would rather be doing other crap than be focused on the combat.

I feel that introducing an active battle system in FFXIV is something SE did to deal with that, but people still don't appreciate the fact that you ARE engaged and you HAVE to be able to react with the right abilities at the right moments. This could probably say something worrying about MMO players in general, and it makes me question why they're playing MMOs in the first place.

I think this is why we can't come to a consensus as to why an auto-attack should or shouldn't be introduced to the game. What are "traditional" MMO players looking for in an MMO?

Or maybe the question should be rephrased to "what makes the game uninteresting enough that people would want to do something else while "playing" it?

[Andrien]

Yes I want auto-attack. Please do this.

It was done perfectly in FFXI and there was no complains. I cannot think of anything negative about this except for personal opinions, but I feel it wont hurt to add it and it'll be a good addition because it was great in FFXI.

[Betelgeuzah]

"Auto-attack was done perfectly in FFXI (editor note: especially during the early levels) and there were never any complaints about it, therefore it should be implemented."

Thank you, I'll add this to my list asap.

[ChiefCurrahee]

The problem lays with the need to generate TP.

Lets take other MMOs for example.

WoW,Aion,Lotro,Rfit,LieneageII,ect ect.
The combat mechanics allow you to issue any of your attacks on demand, pulling from 1 governance pool (Mana,Stamina,action ect ect) and no more than 1 pool. With that, that pool recharges at a set rate, augmented by gear and stats.
In these games, you start combat at 100%. It's up to the player what attack to use. Fire off the mega nuke? or attack with small "DoT" attacks? Any way you look at it all skills, sans conditional, are at your disposal from the get go.

FFXIV uses up to 3 governance pools! You have to issue the TP generating command to store enough TP to use that WS and sometimes that WS uses MP as well. None of them regen on their own. You are forced into attacking.

The system is "spammy" not because players are pressing 11111 it's because of the need to constantly press any button.

Lets face it. If you stand idle you lose DPS, you lose TP gain which leads to more DPS loss.

The current battle system mechanics doesn't fit into how the game was originally designed.

How many of you remember alpha? Remember that battle system. where your attack bar would fill up once it reached 100% you could issue a command, or wait and let it power up further for more dmg/acc?
Remember SP gains were based on the quality of the action taken, not the speed of which you could kill a mob?

SE dropped the ball when they changed the power bar mechanic to the stamina bar to speed up combat,but failed to change anything else associated with battle mechanics. Then dropped the ball again when they patched in set SP, and failed to change the battle system to fit accordingly.

So now the best strategy is to kill at break neck speeds for the best SP gains, in order to do that you have to constantly issue commands, to constantly issue commands other than your non TP attacks (basic attacks) you need TP so you issue TP gen attacks.

I want to see an AA implemented because the the current need to gen TP to issue what should be our "more meaningful attacks" becomes tedious, nearly to the verge of "whats the point of using anything else?"

If TP generated automatically during battle w/o having to issue an attack there would be no need for AA.

How about getting rid of TP as a whole and put all skills on a cool down?

Make mechanics more in line with "standard" MMOs.

Don't want that either?

Well according to SE's polls a majority aren't happy with the current system in place. AA is a viable solution for the "spammy" nature of the game. Adjustments would have to be made globally to the the battle system, but it's cheaper and less labor intensive than building a new system from the ground up.

[Betelgeuzah]

The combat mechanics allow you to issue any of your attacks on demand, pulling from 1 governance pool (Mana,Stamina,action ect ect) and no more than 1 pool. With that, that pool recharges at a set rate, augmented by gear and stats.

While you have a point, that is not really all there is to it. These other games make use of more than one "pool" at time, usually this being some kind of TP or MP and cooldown, global or local.

In FFXIV there are actually three pools- TP or MP, local cooldown and a global cooldown. This is why the current system as-is can not be sustained. Skills need to be divided between those with local cooldown (that do not use stamina) and those without local cooldown (that use global cooldown = stamina). No skill should use both, except if they use no TP or MP, in which case it is okay.

Remember SP gains were based on the quality of the action taken, not the speed of which you could kill a mob?

Yes, I remember the system that favored skills that did the least damage as well as being spammable and fights that were artificially lengthened. No, no "ball" was "dropped" when they changed it to set SP, and that has nothing to do with the combat system.

So now the best strategy is to kill at break neck speeds for the best SP gains

And the problem is that the game allows this. If the monsters never pose such a threat that you need to use debuffs or defensive skills, why would you use them?

You got the diseases almost right but your cure is like giving aspirin for a brain tumor.

[Malakhim]

Stuff.

So if I'm understanding right, what you're saying is that the biggest problem with the system right now as opposed to other MMOs is the fact that you have to "build up" the ability to use your best stuff? I can sort of agree with that.

It's mostly true with melee and not with magic users from my experience though. I don't know any magic spells that require TP, and assuming you don't get that stupid bug that drains all your stamina before a fight begins, you can unload your best spells right from the get go.

Your argument about why the game is "spammy" is interesting, but at the same time, you still had to "build up" TP to use weapon skills in FFXI, although admittedly there was no button pushing there. Although almost every Final Fantasy post VI required you to deal/recieve damage to unleash limit breaks, and it wasn't until FFX that they introduced alternate methods of generation(I forget the specifics though). That's kind of a Final Fantasy thing at this point.

Also, as a bunch of people pointed out, abilities that you buy at guilds have different effects, like added TP generation(at higher stamina costs) or "combo" hits in the case of Flurry. Weapon skills aren't pointless, because they'll usually add in an elemental effect, higher damage, AoE, an enfeeble, or all of that.

I'll agree with the point that SE seems to have made key changes in the way the battle system works without actually making sure that everything else is consistent with the change, however. I think Andrein's post about AA in FFXI is probably very true because of this point: There was much more consistency with FFXI's systems than there are here.

[Betelgeuzah]

I added arguments for and against in the OP. If anyone wants something added express your thoughts here.

[Vanguard319]

I can watch T.V and hit the 1 key at the same time. Amazing huh.

Yeah, try fighting something harder than "blue" or "green" say a "red" Dwarf Diremite with your amazing battle strategy, be sure to let us know how quickly it rapes you.

[KaleRenier]

In my opinion, coming from someone who has played WoW, Rift in beta, Warhammer online, and countless other Free MMO's past/present. They all have auto attacks in combat. Why not keep FFXIV original and let the combat w/o auto attacks stand as is. All auto attacks do, if any of you notice, is make animations from abilities glitch.

Also, it takes away from the strategic feel of combat that FFXIV currently has going for it. It's about time a game breaks the mold. It also holds more true to the FF gameplay feel. FF console titles didn't have auto attacks, the combat was strategic, you picked to "basic attack" or use of a "skill" every time a characters turn came around. and putting that feel into an MMO was done as well it could be in this case i would like to think.

Another point to make here is Bioware is following suite on this one, and NO auto attacks in SWTOR either. "the times, they are a changin' " auto attack fans need to get used to it.

[Vanguard319]

In my opinion, coming from someone who has played WoW, Rift in beta, Warhammer online, and countless other Free MMO's past/present. They all have auto attacks in combat. Why not keep FFXIV original and let the combat w/o auto attacks stand as is. All auto attacks do, if any of you notice, is make animations from abilities glitch.

Also, it takes away from the strategic feel of combat that FFXIV currently has going for it. It's about time a game breaks the mold. It also holds more true to the FF gameplay feel. FF console titles didn't have auto attacks, the combat was strategic, you picked to "basic attack" or use of a "skill" every time a characters turn came around. and putting that feel into an MMO was done as well it could be in this case i would like to think.

Another point to make here is Bioware is following suite on this one, and NO auto attacks in SWTOR either. "the times, they are a changin' " auto attack fans need to get used to it.

You hit the nail on the head! in addition to SWTOR, both KOTORs and SWG didn't have auto-attack either, in the context of the star wars universe, it made more sense to have active time battle, especially since Galaxies had space combat on top of traditional RPG combat. FFXIV doesn't have a built-in flight sim, but the world has that same pace and feel.

I don't know about most of you, but when I'm playing a video game, I want to be engaged and focused on the game, not watching TV or doing anything else

Another good point, if you aren't engaged enough to be focusing on the game, and not watching TV, or reading, then I've gotta question whether or not the game you are playing actually has any entertainment value at all.

In FFXIV there are actually three pools- TP or MP, local cooldown and a global cooldown. This is why the current system as-is can not be sustained. Skills need to be divided between those with local cooldown (that do not use stamina) and those without local cooldown (that use global cooldown = stamina).

This is another good point, there are skills in the game that use no stamina at all, but they are few. GLA has Phalanx for example, PUG has Haymaker, ARC has buffs like raging strike and hawk's eye. (Of those, the WS's have cooldown timers low enough that they are almost irrelevant.) There is no real reason why the current battle engine can't work without some reevaluation of cooldown timers and stamina use. It would be more efficient than trying to build an entirely different combat system from scratch, seeing how many OTHER things you would have to alter and bastardize just to make it work.