[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Shikyo]

Auto attack ruins the other "attacks" each class gets that you purchase with marks. If they add auto attack I hope they don't do away with the flexibility of things like close shot, heavy shot, far shot, heavy slash, heavy swing etc...

A lot of people don't know they exist, and they think all they have for options is "light attack" which isn't the case. If people started using the other optional "standard attacks" you can purchase with marks, they wouldn't be asking for auto attack.

They are attacks that come at a stamina cost greater than "light swing" but have additional effects like generating more TP for the player, reducing the monsters TP each swing, increasing enmity and hitting multiple targets.

These are "standard attacks" that are not TP moves, so if used correctly should make most of the rants about "all I do is push 1 button anyway" moot.

Go buy your class skills, and start using them.

Every thread i see you in i see that you are there ranting about not changing this failing game, and telling anyone that doesnt agree their whining and complaining ect. Man if they listen to you they may as well pack it up and shut it down.
Dude this game is failing ppl have different opinions why it is, but i think all but a select few non final fantasy fans that just like mmo's, can agree that something needs to change. Again we all think different things are more pressing on the list than other things but the majority of the true series fans agree things need to change.
SE i think knows this as well. They listened the fans and felt it in their pocket, thats why there is a new devo team prod. forums polls ect, you think these things were made cause the game was recieved with smiles cheers and open arms+wallets?
So idk to what extent but i think its safe to say you are sol in wanting to keep this subpar offering (from what i rate as the #1 rpg maker in the industry) unchanged i know ppl like what they like but man SE showed better if you played XI it confuses me even more how you keep saying "dude this game is fine the way it is". To each their own, but man i am SOOOO happy you alone dont hold the fate of this game cause i for one want it to survive and thrive

[Betelgeuzah]

People keep arguing back and forth about which one they like more, when, IMO, it comes down to the fact that BOTH are awful. The combat system needs an overhaul.

I don't think anti-auto-attack people are arguing that the combat doesn't need to be improved. It is simply much easier to start building off what you already have in place, instead of switching sides and then start building on that foundation (like you said, simply having an auto-attack implemented does not fix the game. It is more of a sidestep which is exactly what is worrisome about it).

But neither does the combat system need an 'overhaul'. Vast improvements on some specific areas, depending on what you want to accomplish, yes. There are multiple smaller or slightly larger features in place for the combat system that are quite irrelevant for the game at this point. Expanding on them while polishing the rest of the combat system should easily do. We are talking about months and months of work here, but everything would be a clear improvement over the former system.

These features are not like some others, that were doomed from the get-go (Marketplace in its original form, for one). They don't need to be changed. They need expanding, they need polishing. They don't need to be turned upside-down just because their current manifestation is not optimal. This game can not sustain many of these kind of changes. Especially for something as important as the combat system. Which is why it's incredibly important that if these changes are not for the better, we should not support it. We already did that during the Beta. I did. I sure as hell won't repeat that mistake by letting them off the hook for whatever reason.

Fortunately most of the planned changes I can agree with. But this, this just may not be what the game needs at all. I'm glad this is important to many others as well, even if we disagree. The more fuss we make, the more likely the devs are to respond.

[Joe_Cool]

Why are people still using the "spam 1,1,1,1,1" argument?

I'm pretty sure that was debunked awhile ago. If you're a melee class and that's how you're playing, you're doing it wrong.

I agree with this.
And can I just say that if they do put in Auto-Attack....I bet most of the same people complaining about hitting 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 will then complain about how boring the combat is with auto-attack. Because guess what? If they're just hitting 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1....then they won't be doing anything.....


Edit: I think putting in Auto-Attack with this game would be a [SIZE="5"]BIG[/SIZE] mistake

[Danniedeadboy]

Auto-Attack would destroy this game, using actions makes this game unique i love this game because I feel so involved I can stop attacking at a moments notice I can queue my actions and feel like everything i do is strategy instead of just watching my character slash or fire away. FFXIV makes you more involved and if you're paying attention to 111111111111 then like others have said, YOURE NOT PLAYING THE GAME RIGHT!!!! there is so much more then just 111111 you have to carefully watch whats going on in the game in order to revise your actions at times it does feel like you're just spamming but isnt that like other games as well, no matter what you do in any other game you're still spamming actions but in a different setting? I'm Against Auto-Attack. I feel the way the battle system is things go alot faster than they did in FFXI.

[Kaedan]

I agree with this.
And can I just say that if they do put in Auto-Attack....I bet most of the same people complaining about hitting 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 will then complain about how boring the combat is with auto-attack. Because guess what? If they're just hitting 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1....then they won't be doing anything.....


Edit: I think putting in Auto-Attack with this game would be a [SIZE="5"]BIG[/SIZE] mistake

No, they wouldn't complain about it being boring because the type of people who want Auto attack are the types that want to watch TV while playing. In FFXI or other MMOs, they're the type of people that don't do their jobs and are constantly not paying attention. They like to leech XP while doing something else.

Honestly, the lack of AA makes me feel more involved. Also, if all you're doing is spamming your "light attack" over and over again, you're doing it wrong. In FFXI, AA was a big part of it... but in other MMOs, AA hasn't been important for years. People are too busy spamming all their OTHER skills for AA to actually do any damage.

[Chumeia]

I would like the ability to turn on or off a set of attacks. I guess a Macro could be written but it would be a nuisance. What few parties I have been in were mobs. Everything happened so fast that I barely had time to select the enemy and initiate attack. If my auto attack selected a Group Majority, or follow Group Leader then I could concentrate on more specialized skills rather than having to stop and hit the Attack button.

See, if you are used to 100% KB based combat then the current system works quite well. But I an d many more soon will be using Controllers. Thus the game must be able to accommodate a controller/KB hybrid environment.

What could be really useful is a Gambit like system as used in FFXII. Gambits were effectively a simple Macro system, and it worked really well, though I was often glad the gambit could also be Quickly switched OFF when some one stopped behaving as needed.

It might be really cool, if a group leader could even assign a default set of expected behaviors and depending on your own settings, each member would take on basic functions of the active gambit selections. Of course this should be optional, and on an active switch so that it doesn't interfere when it doesn't work quite right, or the defaults aren't getting the job done and manual intervention is needed to save the day.

[BadJoeRed]

For profiling purposes of the reader, I'm more or less against adding auto-attack, it's not necessary.

Having said that, IF we have to get auto attack implemented, I don't see any other way to keep as many people happy about it as possible. (other than the following idea explained below )

Battle system can stay almost exactly the same as it is now. Keeping the stamina bar as well.

Here it is: They need to add an additional "slot" directly next to our action bar. This "slot" will be an action of your choice that you can change, or toggle on/off at any time with a hotkey. This will be the "auto-attack slot."

Example: let's say you have Light Stab on your action bar as #1, and Heavy Stab as your #2 ability. By pushing some combination of keys such as ~hold down the Right shift key and push 1~ (I know shift wouldn't work because it is used for Battle Regimen, it's just an example) doing this would automatically load Light stab into the "auto attack slot." At any time during your auto-attacks and during battle, you can push ~Right shift key and push 2~ this would instantly load Heavy Slash into your "auto attack slot." Doing this will change your auto attack to the new action on the next swing.

Auto-attack should only execute after the stamina bar has reached 100% in order to give people sufficient stamina to ensure they have enough to use their barrage of actions and weapon skills.

Optional, but depending on whether or not SE wants to discourage the use of autoattack, they can impose a slight delay when your character does the auto attack swing.

Example: Instead of your character doing the auto attack at 100% stamina, the auto attack will only swing when you would have technically regenerated up to 105% or whatever they feel is fair. This would make using autoattack 'slightly' worse than pushing all of the keystrokes yourself because of the wasted time it takes your bar to go from 100% to 105%. (by this I mean, if your selected auto-attack takes 20% of your stamina bar, your stamina will still go down to 80%, NOT to 85%, and then you must wait for it to return to 105% to execute another auto attack)

As I stated above, I don't really want autoattack, but if they add it, I think it really needs to be done in a similar fashion.

what do you guys think? on both sides of the argument? Is it a fair compromise?

I firmly believe AA will be in game soon.

[Eron]

Unless you play conquer online auto attacking doesn't do much of anything. How many games with auto attack have you actually just let it auto attack? None. You know why? Cause it's crap. It does crap damage, creates crap threat, adds crap combo points. The only thing that doesn't make it crappy is using your skills, which makes you INVOLVED. To say auto attacking will make gameplay less involved is crap.

I'm all for something innovative however. The MMO norm of spamming skills based on cooldowns and procs has been overdone and since this game is already soooooo different than the others why not play with new ideas. I wish I had a suggestion for you all but I'm just a player. If it sucks I'll just grab a pickaxe and mine while complaining about how crappy the game is on the forums.

The previous post has some good ideas. Not perfect but on the right track

[Steelcyclone]

for the people that say they don't spam 11111 as melee spamming 1112111211131112 is the same crap, and as far as auto attack is for people who like to be lazy and watch t.v while playing. I can watch T.V and hit the 1 key at the same time. Amazing huh.

I'm all for auto attack. Makes it so when im questing with a friend for a few hours my 1 button isn't broken at the end of the day, along with my finger for pressing it 1000000 times.

[Betelgeuzah]

I can watch T.V and hit the 1 key at the same time.

You know, for saying "the encounters in this game are too easy and require no more than the use of three keys" there are better ways to express the current situation.

Now it's more like

"Because the monsters in this game are easy and require no actual thought and most of my abilities are unnecessary because of it, I want the developers to automate the combat so that I don't have to involve myself when fighting easy monsters. I don't want the developers to make the actual encounters harder and require more varied actions to be used instead, because I can not comprehend that these two issues could be linked and fixing one solves the other."

In addition,

"Because the UI layout does not support the gamepad I want the developers to change the gameplay to something that is more forgiving for gamepads with this kind of UI, instead of actually changing the UI layout towards something that makes the kind of gameplay XIV provides possible and efficient with a gamepad."

Not to mention

"Implementing auto-attack reduces the server lag, which makes playing easier. However, I am against actually improving the server code and hardware for the same results because that would be simply backwards logic."

As well as

"I have no time to communicate in this game because of the required button inputs, however I don't want S-E to implement voice chat because console gamers never use voice chat ever and that is a PC-only feature. It is better to reduce the amount of button inputs instead, because that isn't backwards logic".

More:

"Auto-attack was done perfectly in FFXI (editor note: especially during the early levels) and there were never any complaints about it, therefore it should be implemented."

And to top them off

"It wouldn't make the gameplay less involving AT ALL. You would simply have time to do something else than playing the game, such as picking your nose and doing the dishes. Less button inputs would also be required from you, which again, does not make the gameplay less involving AT ALL, because you can still watch the game perform these inputs for you instead, and that is almost as fun as watching a movie."

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If anyone has any other counter-arguments for auto-attack, I'd like to hear them here and combine them together for easier reading.