[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Seikninkuru]

#s are action hotkeys just for reference.
So 1,1,1,1,1,5 (TP skill),1,1,1,1,1,5 (TP skill),1,1,1,1,1,7 (attack buff),8 (attack buff),9 (accuracy buff),0 (accuracy buff),5 (TP skill) + repeat maybe throw some cures in there if you are soloing/tanking and if not then you most likely won't be curing. All while spamming/queuing + lag/latency prevents you from using 6 (Feint) or Cures/other abilities being delayed when you need to use them at that exact moment and discouraging co-operative game play (Battle Regimen ideally) because people would rather do 1,1,1,1,1 for TP to use 5 (TP skill) than benefit from Regular Attack while in Battle Regimen instead so they can do 5 (TP skill) while the rest of the party does 4 (Magic),5 (TP skill),7 (whatever).

With auto attack it will be like this. Wait a few seconds 5 (TP skill), wait 3sec, 6(Feint), wait 4sec, 5 (TP skill), wait 2sec, 6 (Feint, I can use this because I missed and am not inconveniently compromised at the same time), wait 5 sec, 7 (attack buff), 8 (attack buff), 9 (accuracy buff), 0 (accuracy buff), 5 (TP skill). Now to make up for time lost not mindlessly spamming something (which is very minimal already) you can co-operate with your party to perform Battle Regimen and most likely everyone will agree this is a good idea because you are still gaining TP in the process and it is advantageous to perform Battle Regimen because of added damage and effects. Also you can cast cures, buffs, or debuffs (even as DoW) a little more conveniently. Also DoM can effectively build TP a little more conveniently while casting Cures, Debuffs, Nukes so they can add in a little something extra like Radiance w/o having to interfere with being a mage.

This is your choice, I simply layed out how the game will play in the end with both setups. I think Auto Attack allows being to be more tactical in playing the game and if you look at it this way it's more active because your fingers are basically pushing keys as fast with the addition of using your brain. You choose. If you still would rather have the setup the way it currently is after knowing more about both setups then I respect your opinion. Although unless you can successfully counter my proposal then I will not agree.

Thanks for your write up.

I belive the waits you have included in your mock battle make the battle seem slower and less enjoyabel to me.

Would not a battle regimen that was requiring peopel to be on the ball and be quick to react be better than one that allows them 30 seconds(an example, of course) to react.

I fail to see how auto attack makes the game more interactive, just less I have to do, less interactive, less decisions for me to make... I thought strategy was about making decisons, my bad.

[Betelgeuzah]

If SE intended the battle system to be so involving, then they should have included a built in voice chat.

So you are suggesting that SE make the battle system to be uninvolving instead of implementing a voice chat? This is such a lose-lose situation.

Also as boring as this sounds, if you're going to suggest something, make sure that it's actually practical to implement. They can not do a complete 180 turnaround and do something completely different, that is only possible in your mind where such things as resources and time are not issues. SE may be willing to do a lot, but if we think that the end result will be something completely upside down from the current combat I think people should brace for disappointment. Indeed, if you have an idea, the easier it is to implement to the current system the better it is.

I just wanted to say this to keep the discussion on track.

So 1,1,1,1,1,5 (TP skill)

I don't know about you, but I need roughly half of that to get enough TP. I also don't use all of my attack buffs at once. I don't think exaggerating is going to help your case here.

With auto attack it will be like this. Wait a few seconds ... wait 3sec ... wait 4sec ... wait 2sec ... wait 5 sec ...

Yes, this is the solution to make the combat fun... Instead of having to press a button, the game now does it for you! Leaving you enough time for "advanced tactix" (like they're even needed, and like the game is so "hard" that you couldn't do them without the game playing itself for you).

I think Auto Attack allows being to be more tactical in playing the game

Is this really some kind of "MMO for kids"? Are you honestly so overwhelmed right now that you can't function at 100% effectiveness in this game? I don't, and this is just my opinion, want this game to be made for your kind. I'd get utterly bored. This is the best case of "dumbing down the game" for no reason whatsoever. "The combat is too involving, these poor idiots can't keep up, so let's simplify it so they can barely keep up". Does not comply.

I'd prefer action queuing instead of an auto-attack.

Yes, I always felt that action queueing would work much better in this game. However, it has to be done right. As in, you need to see the commands you have stacked, the execution must be "instant" and not feel like there's a 3 second lag. And most importantly, we need to be able to cancel the queued skills easily if needed (with right mouse click, esc or gamepad).

I fail to see how auto attack makes the game more interactive, just less I have to do, less interactive, less decisions for me to make... I thought strategy was about making decisons, my bad.

Yeah. They can implement other ways to make the fights more interesting and tactical, but auto attack is not helping them with that. It will be a long way until the current combat becomes too "overwhelmingly tactical" so that it needs to be made more uninvolving.

[sasukeuchiha]

I wouldn't mind auto attack myself then i would no longer have to hit the 1 button 400 million times.

[Linnear]

but again auto attack is for pansies... sorry play a real game there you gotta manually attack. Its alot funner then watching the AI do it. FFxi got pretty dull once ppl just dd zerged everything with /nin. Even monk had to /nin.....heack first it was you must do /war... then it was you must do /nin

Auto attack allowes cookie cutting which od epically boring.

I say no to auto attack, its a cheap concept, and makesa for brain dead gamers. It also is do reliant of cookie cutting builds.

I hear what your saying about the lol/nin on jobs and such but that is unimaginative pople doing unimaginative things (no supprise there) If you don't want auto attack to get ride of coasters, then your removing game featurs and player comfort for fear of being stuck with auto attack bots. Personally I don't think this is a great arguement againts the auto attack but I am heaing it from a lot of people, which is interesting to note.

On another hand you lose the effect of weapon delay, gearing choices for auto/ability power, and the need to torture the poor game pad folks. I play on 360 controller at the moment and I use mumble for party things and I play Glad and I like my current set up. But I know my PC buddies have a leg up on reaction time and targetting on me, which makes the fact that I need to change targets, (slower) AND go hit a basic attack so I cna get soem aggro on mob before an AOE comes out so my next ability can peal it back is jsut tiring and makes me play Glad with keyboard and mouse. I am sure that auto attack is not the only problem in this scenario but it seems to me to be a pointless extra hump for fear of bad palyers playing badly, (pretty sure they will find a way to piss you off with this system either way...)

[ChiefCurrahee]

Once again, it should be noted that this thread is in no way a statement that the combat system should stay as-is. The point is that they shouldn't change the system without any reason behind it.

This thread is, in fact, a statement saying that if S-E changes the combat system this way, it will not be seen in a favorable light by anyone except those who want XI's combat because it's XI's combat.

Did you even read my whole post? Because I did post a reason behind why they should change the battle system to include an auto attack. Or did you just skim and find something to quote and take it out of context to drive this thread in a different direction?

I'll say it again.

As the battle system stands now,It is tedious to navigate the action bar WITH A GAMEPAD. Let me give you the situation.

You action bar consists of:
1) Light attack 2) Guard 3) Provoke 4) Phalanx 5) Red Lotus 6) Circle SLash 7) Cure

A battle goes like this:

1 1 1 2 5 4 1 1 1 5 6 7 1 1 1 2 5

you just took 17 actions which requires 17 inputs.

Now on a game pad it looks like this:
1 1 1 > 2 > > > 5 < 4 < < < 1 1 1 > > > >5 > 6 > 7 < < < < < < 1 1 1 > 2 > > > 5

you did 17 actions and had 41 user inputs.

Even if you hold down the direction pad and are 100% accurate and stop on the desired action it takes 27 inputs for 17 actions.

THE SYSTEM IS TEDIOUS.

*IF* your basic attacks become auto attacks
you input becomes: (AA) = auto attack
1(AA) (AA) (AA) > 2 > 5 < 4 (AA) (AA) (AA) > 5 > 6 >7 (AA) (AA) (AA) < < < < < 2 > > > 5

17 actions 23 inputs.
(or if 100% and hold down direction button 17 actions for 17 inputs)
Trust me PS3 users WILL complain about this.

Now I can't be 100% certain about SE's strategy for marketing FFXIV. But I think they are counting on the PS3 release to be the 2nd chance for FFXIV. You don't want that user base to be upset from the exclusion of 1 input being taken away from the user.

Now before you say it's dumbing down the game. Gamers want immersion, or any other asinine comment about how Auto attack will destroy the game. Think of what it means for the game over all.

You can have gear that has:
variety of DMG vs Delay weapons
Enhance attack speed gear
enhance attack speed / dmg: spells / skills / abilities

Players have a chance to communicate in battle w/o feeling they are "missing" an attack round.

Less overall transmitted data ( probably won't affect anything at all)

Now what does it take away from FFXIV?

............................?

Player input of 1 attack?

.............................?

The Ability to attack at will? (make it so if you select your "1" basic attack again it turns auto attack off.)


Though it's my opinion an Auto Attack will do this game more good than harm. And we all want this game to be good.

[Betelgeuzah]

You can have gear that has:
variety of DMG vs Delay weapons
Enhance attack speed gear
enhance attack speed / dmg: spells / skills / abilities

You can already have this kind of gear and weapons. Stamina regeneration and cost-enhancements work with the same principle.

Players have a chance to communicate in battle w/o feeling they are "missing" an attack round.

As said multiple times before, voice-chat. Dumbing down the game when better alternatives exist is not acceptable.

Lastly, and most importantly

As the battle system stands now,It is tedious to navigate the action bar WITH A GAMEPAD. Let me give you the situation.

Is a problem with the action bar, and should be changed regardless. It is also quite simple in-fact.

They should A) make the current action bar into a 3x3 style grid. B) Assign a separate button for the basic attack (decided by the player).

What this does, is that it allows for much more efficient gamepad usability while in combat, and lessens the need to scroll between the abilities considerably. Even with an auto-attack, this would be a needed change. To take it even further, in a popular console-style way the developers can make it so the right analog stick is used to choose the ability by tilting it towards a direction. The result is even less inputs needed, and quite close to the efficiency of keyboard if not 100%.

Two birds, one stone. Although it's not completely on subject, it's an example that there's no reason to introduce auto-attack (at the moment).

[sasukeuchiha]

I do agree tho with a game pad its way more tedious. I for 1 do not want to constantly hit the 1 button a million times the faster i can get stuff done the better and constatly pressing the 1 button a million times for be is boring. If that what emersion is then screw it.

[Betelgeuzah]

I do agree tho with a game pad its way more tedious. I for 1 do not want to constantly hit the 1 button a million times the faster i can get stuff done the better and constatly pressing the 1 button a million times for be is boring. If that what emersion is then screw it.

<Having pressed the same button over and over again for 13 games>

"Yay, fun!"

<Having to press the same button in the 14th game>

"OMg I haet dis"

What the hell though. You'll be pressing the same damn button no matter what skill you do. Gawd.

[sasukeuchiha]

Not quite like that auto attack just makes everything easier. This isnt an offline game its a mmo its far differnt. Just about ever mmo iv played has attack so why be so freeking differnt.

[Dreamer]

This is a public service announcement for everyone who is complaining about having to spam light attacks.

IF YOU'RE SPAMMING YOUR LIGHT ATTACK TO BUILD TP YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

You should not be spamming anything unless you're lower than level 10 with your first class. With the number of attacks of different classes that you have on hand there's no reason you should ever be spamming anything. Take your time, plan our your attacks as you go. Between miscellaneous attack and the enemy attacking you, you should be fine for TP unless you're trying to use 2000 TP attacks every chance you get.

Adjust your playstyle instead of trying to adjust the game to fit you.