[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Amsai]

The 3 categories seems weird to me or perhaps I don't quite understand the concept all that well since it's so different, but I think its similar to what already exists. Now I'm not 100% sure on this, but I know some melee actions have elemental attributes to them, I'm pretty sure that using some magical actions as a DoW gives those actions melee properties and can't be used at range, and as for all damaging spells I'm not sure but perhaps they are also give melee properties. I know buffs, debuffs, and cures as DoW can be used at range and isn't affected by elemental properties. Now nuke tiers don't affect the same nuke's cool down on any tier and a global cool down does not exist. Now the melee actions with elemental attributes does use MP but there aren't many of those actions. You can cross class any spell to use MP which can deplete you MP quite fast as DoW. However using spells as DoW does require magical stats to be effective but this is all part of your class setup and how you tactically want to play the game. So I don't see much change here from what you proposed.

Not entirely sure what you mean by tactics, but I'm assuming melee buffs, (Featherfoot, Raging Strike, Ferocity) crowd control (Shadowbind), or enmity actions (Provoke, Taunt, Wardrum). We have these also. Personally I think stamina could stay the way it is even with an auto attack and it would behave the same way (auto attack would still deplete the stamina gauge each hit and if you don't want to use stamina you can simply toggle it off). If you changed stamina to only be used by tactics (melee classes only unless you cross class) then tactical action cool downs must be directly linked with the progression of stamina. This way it gives weight/opportunity cost to your actions (which preferably wouldn't be too fast IMO).

Now the balance issue here is how many tactical actions does SE expect to to generally be used. In the current setup some people use no tactical actions and some people use very many tactical actions. For example I could have 2 enmity, 1 crowd control, 2 accuracy buffs, and 2 attack buffs. Now I would consider this a lot of actions and way too many for SE to consider allowing a player to use w/o some heavy opportunity cost or direct tactical play based on battle situations. Personally I would code the game to allow 2-3 tactics be used around every 15-30 seconds to keep up with the battle pace of FFXIV. The thing I like the most about your proposal is that this greatly encourages those who don't use any tactics to equip at around 2-3 tactical actions and those who only equip 1-3 attack actions and 4+ buff tactical actions to use on 1 single attack to use fewer tactical actions or force weight on the situation rather using back to back tactical actions because everything is based on stamina (which is built up fast enough to spam many tactical actions) and you are only restricted on cool downs for each action individually (not globally). So I really like this idea.

Personally I don't think the magic idea is so good if you mean to change actions and give DoW new magical skills. However your proposal states to build stamina through using magic and TP abilities while building TP stays the same. Now there are 3 options here.

1. Regular attacks (hopefully auto) would build both TP and Stamina.
2. Regular attacks (hopefully auto) would build TP and using TP converts into Stamina.
3. Regular attacks (hopefully auto) would build TP and using TP/MP converts into Stamina.

Personally option 3 looks best to me, option 1 works, and option 2 just fails IMO. Here are the reason why:

1. Both DoW and DoM can gain stamina, fairly more difficult for DoM because it's generally not best tactic to just spam regular attacks since spell casting is much more effective. Thus making the use of tactical actions very inconvenient however with an auto attack this is a much more viable option.
2. This limits DoM to either using melee actions or relying Radiance/(forgot name of THM action equivalent to Radiance) with the same TP issue as 1.
3. Now both DoW and DoM can build both TP (if needed by DoM) and stamina efficiently.

Overall, I think this (especially combined with auto attacks for convenience whether this system is implemented or we keep the current system) makes combat much more engaging, adds tactical elements, and just more fun IMO. It reduces the constant need of using everything as soon as cool down wears off (which is horrible IMO it's just a big twitchy spam fast that doesn't involve any thinking and thus tedious repeated actions that doesn't require any effort other than how long you can keep it up before you need a break).

Great idea. Hope my version helps and explains for all to understand.

Edit: As for the DoW magical melee actions this gives DoW more emphasis to use these actions (which are very weak and quite useless IMO) since it would build slightly more stamina since it uses both TP and MP.

Yea you pretty much understand what Im saying. And yes it would be #3. I would like to clarify that each of the categories would be completely seperate so TP abilities only need TP, Magic only needs MP, and Tactics only need stamina. However, you would ofcourse need magic and WS to build stamina indirectly. I would also think there would be a small handful of abilities that were free of cost, but nothing too powerful.
Here is an example of ability breakdowns:
Mage: *Magic based WS for WS category
*Magic spells (nuke, heal, buff, debuff) for Magic Category (cure, fire)
*Special abilities that greatly increase potency of effect or durration, and maybe even some very high level spells for
the Tactics Category (benediction, 30% durration, Flare II)
Melee: *Normal WS for WS
*lower grade abilities for the "melee" Magic Category (defender, warcry)
*higher grade abilities for the Tactics Category (invinsible, double TP gain, eagle eye)

These are just examples.

[whoopeeragon]

who me? and My dislike of auto attack?
Sorry I play real games that actually makes you play. Not making you sit and watch the action.

heck I much rather play the ps1 harvrest moon game then dragon age origians., and infact I am.

Then go play them, and leave off a nice debate without constant reminders about the 101 sins of having auto-attack on.

I'm warning you, I have my spray ready...:

http://api.ning.com/files/H1AigR7tKn...rnettrolls.jpg

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Nice idea...but it'll better be a toggle-on and off style. I'll want my fingers to get some exercise mashing buttons.

Otherwise, OP has gone through the breakdown of abilities; and perhaps I'll like to add that please, do NOT make the MP-regaining skills e.g. tranquility, take up the whole damn stamina. At least make it practical so that if you're getting bashed by monsters and you use an MP-regaining skill, you can still attack/heal/buff.

[Amsai]

who me? and My dislike of auto attack?
Sorry I play real games that actually makes you play. Not making you sit and watch the action.

heck I much rather play the ps1 harvrest moon game then dragon age origians., and infact I am.

No, AmyRae, she mentioned Nintendo 3ds, and I have no idea what thats got to do with anything.

As far as your dislike for auto-attack, thats your right to your opinion. As I said before, I would want it implemented well, so it doesnt feel like every other mmo out there.

As far as doing the work for you, I had hoped the system I suggested gives you enough to do with having to keep up with three different systems of attack at the same time, and like the current system if not managed well, you loose potential to do better attacks and what not.

I agree with you about Dragon Age... totally hate that game.

Can't agree with you on Harvest Moon being a real game........ I put it in the same category as Facebook games, disgrace of the gaming world.

What I'd rather play is Demon's Souls or hopefully soon Dark Souls (its sequel).

For the record I'm not a Lazy gamer, but I do get very obsessive with seperating gaming in terms of the feel of it.
I love FFXI, its a great MMO, mostly because this almost perfect inbetween of real time and almost turnbased feel. Just like old school rpgs. Most other MMOs have a feel to their play that makes me think of someone that created a action oriented world with half-assed game mechanics and strategies that feel awkward and clunky and not suitable for a fast paced environment.

Now aside from my idea or something like it I am open to the other extreme. I played Vindictus and will be playing TERA Online. I am very interested in their "true action" oriented combat. I wouldnt mind if FFXIV went that direction with the battle system. But MMOs whos battle is faster paced, but falls in between FFXI and TERA just seem like lame half-assed attempts to me. However, I don't think SE has the courage to take the battle system in a true action direction.

[OmegaNovaios]

Nice idea...but it'll better be a toggle-on and off style. I'll want my fingers to get some exercise mashing buttons.

Otherwise, OP has gone through the breakdown of abilities; and perhaps I'll like to add that please, do NOT make the MP-regaining skills e.g. tranquility, take up the whole damn stamina. At least make it practical so that if you're getting bashed by monsters and you use an MP-regaining skill, you can still attack/heal/buff.

The supporters of auto attack generally support (maybe even everyone) to be able to toggle on/off for auto attacks.

MP regaining abilities don't use stamina in this system:
Siphon MP (MP based): gives stamina and MP
Edit: Actually I'm not sure if Siphon MP has a MP cost. If not then consideration of making it "Stamina Based" left to SE if this system is implemented.
Stygian Spikes-upon cast (MP based): gives stamina (being hit gives MP ONLY)
Tranquility (free action due to drastic cool down): gives MP
Radiance (TP based): gives stamina and MP

[Amsai]

Yep! Totally support Toggling auto-attack. Before coming on this forum I'd have never of thought of that. I knew I wanted auto-attack, but never thought of having it be a toggle on/off mode. Its such a great idea, yet so simple.

[OmegaNovaios]

Yep! Totally support Toggling auto-attack. Before coming on this forum I'd have never of thought of that. I knew I wanted auto-attack, but never thought of having it be a toggle on/off mode. Its such a great idea, yet so simple.

It really is. If you have a different "Regular Attack" from guild marks or secondary attack then you equip that action and press the key for that action and it switches to auto attacking in that mode. If you don't want to attack then press the key of the mode you are currently engaged in.

[Reika]

So.... has everyone agreed on 'No to Auto Attack' yet?

[Seikninkuru]

So.... has everyone agreed on 'No to Auto Attack' yet?

Hope so Reika.

[OmegaNovaios]

#s are action hotkeys just for reference.
So 1,1,1,1,1,5 (TP skill),1,1,1,1,1,5 (TP skill),1,1,1,1,1,7 (attack buff),8 (attack buff),9 (accuracy buff),0 (accuracy buff),5 (TP skill) + repeat maybe throw some cures in there if you are soloing/tanking and if not then you most likely won't be curing. All while spamming/queuing + lag/latency prevents you from using 6 (Feint) or Cures/other abilities being delayed when you need to use them at that exact moment and discouraging co-operative game play (Battle Regimen ideally) because people would rather do 1,1,1,1,1 for TP to use 5 (TP skill) than benefit from Regular Attack while in Battle Regimen instead so they can do 5 (TP skill) while the rest of the party does 4 (Magic),5 (TP skill),7 (whatever).

With auto attack it will be like this. Wait a few seconds 5 (TP skill), wait 3sec, 6(Feint), wait 4sec, 5 (TP skill), wait 2sec, 6 (Feint, I can use this because I missed and am not inconveniently compromised at the same time), wait 5 sec, 7 (attack buff), 8 (attack buff), 9 (accuracy buff), 0 (accuracy buff), 5 (TP skill). Now to make up for time lost not mindlessly spamming something (which is very minimal already) you can co-operate with your party to perform Battle Regimen and most likely everyone will agree this is a good idea because you are still gaining TP in the process and it is advantageous to perform Battle Regimen because of added damage and effects. Also you can cast cures, buffs, or debuffs (even as DoW) a little more conveniently. Also DoM can effectively build TP a little more conveniently while casting Cures, Debuffs, Nukes so they can add in a little something extra like Radiance w/o having to interfere with being a mage.

This is your choice, I simply layed out how the game will play in the end with both setups. I think Auto Attack allows being to be more tactical in playing the game and if you look at it this way it's more active because your fingers are basically pushing keys as fast with the addition of using your brain. You choose. If you still would rather have the setup the way it currently is after knowing more about both setups then I respect your opinion. Although unless you can successfully counter my proposal then I will not agree.

[Rentahamster]

I'd prefer action queuing instead of an auto-attack. Or perhaps a gambit-like system where you can pre-program certain automatic patterns of behavior for your character.

Auto-attack wouldn't work well with certain classes, like archers.