[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Sparker]

I haven't read all of the posts, but my suggestion for auto attack would be very simple:

If you hover over any basic attack, with a mouse or gamepad, it uses that ability automatically until you move to a different ability. To stop attacking, you simply slide along your bar to a special ability to build more stamina or use a ws. EASY.

[sharky]

I don't mean to be negative here, but I have to chime in. The last I played the game, which was about 1 week ago, there was still a little issue with the targeting. That targeting reticle for attacking enemies (not NPCs) sometimes is tricky to control still. It jumps around a lot and doesn't always target the enemy you're selecting.

This would create a problem if a 'auto-attack' option was enabled because I'd probably get into a battle with an enemy I wasn't intending to. Then they get all aggro on you and start giving chase.

This has been my personal experience with the game. Has anyone else had an issue with 'janky' enemy targeting?
I think that should be addressed first, then the game should at least give you the option to 'auto-attack' if it was there before in FF11.

[Magnus]

On the subject of different attacks purchased from guilds (e.g. Heavy Slash) while also introducing auto-attack, they could consider turning these actions into stances. For example, normally I would auto-attack with light swing. However, if a situation calls for me to use heavy swing, I could simply use the ability from my action bar and my character would enter that stance. Any following auto-attack after using the ability would result in heavy swing, and I could just as easily switch back to light swing if needed.

Just an idea. Personally, I'm rather indifferent to the idea of adding auto-attack. On the other hand, I was a fan of XI's battle system, so having AA added to the game wouldn't necessarily upset me.

[OmegaNovaios]

I made this thread to probably, maybe, perhaps get some answers from the developers and/or community representatives regarding this upcoming feature, if not immediately, sometime in the future. Discussion is also welcome obviously.

The one question I have is: How do the developers think implementing this feature will benefit the game? In other words, what good would it do to the game to have this feature replace(?) the stamina gauge and manual attack input?

I have two possible scenarios to explain the developers' intent for having this feature (my knowledge is limited however):

1) The players feel that spamming attacks is an issue with the combat system, therefore the auto-attack feature is being planned to address that. However, it makes me wonder why the developers think that making the gameplay less involving would benefit it in the long run? I have seen more than few times that the players feel that they can not communicate well enough with such a 'fast' combat system. Wouldn't it be better to implement other ways to communicate (such as voice chat) instead of making the gameplay less involving instead? Do you think that the huge majority of potential players will approve of this kind of method to increase the communication in-game, when superior alternatives already exist?

2) The development team feels that going towards gameplay more familiar to the majority of MMORPG players would benefit the game. This basically means that basic attacks are automatic while 'spamming' special attacks with their own cooldowns becomes the norm. However, can you say that this is objectively a beneficial change for the game as a whole, taking into account just how massive of a change we are talking about in the end? Will this change make the game better than, say, improving on and polishing the existing stamina gauge and manual input mechanics? More importantly, as the servers are in Japan there will always be more input lag than in other MMORPG's with region-based servers, making our version of the combat system worse from the get-go.

In the end what we need is a polished system that works, but I would like to hear what the people at SE as well as the players have to say about this feature and it's potential beneficial effects for the game. Lastly, I want to say that I initially did not agree with the decision to bring back the 'classic' classes but as I heard from the Producer Yoshida himself how the feature will be implemented, I agreed with his plans. I hope to see the same happen here. If the developers have plans to make the combat system more involving in other ways, then obviously I would agree with the change.

I believe that an auto-attack system should be added to FFXIV for several reasons similar to FFXI, but with a slight difference and naturally making it more of a middle ground between FFXI and what FFXIV is now since FFXIV has a much faster TP generation process thus making combat still much more active than FFXI even with auto-attack. My proposal is to instead have auto-attack behave exactly like that in FFXI, but keeping the regular attack actions and when pressing the button for those actions it will turn on/off that type of action and even allowing players to not have an auto-attack being performed for the "regular attack Battle Regimen effect" as well as being able to face the monster without attacking while engaged in combat unlike in FFXI.

1. Spamming attacks is an issue for me since I get locked into this "spam queue" where I cannot do any other action until this queue has been executed, which in turn prevents me form using actions such as Feint (500 TP: In the event that you miss an attack you may use this action to perform a guaranteed hit) since there is a specific amount of time to use this action as well as prolonging me to use any other action that isn't restricted by a time limit like this which in some cases causes wasted TP since I like certain TP actions that can use 3000 TP and this queue can force several regular hits after I have already acquired 3000 TP. Now I know that I can resolve this issue by waiting until my regular attacks are executed before queuing the next, but I find this inconvenient as well as a waste of time not performing an action in some cases due to general lag/latency.

Now if an auto-attack was implemented it would resolve this issue as well as promoting the use of Battle Regimen. Now I know that very many people (most of the player base by far) do not use Battle Regimen because it isn't that convenient to use since everyone must stop doing any action what so ever in order perform a Battle Regimen correctly and effectively. This in turn not only prevents people from taking advantage of the benefits from Battle Regimen but prevents people form even attempting to learn to use it properly. If there was an auto-attack feature this would allow players to be active during the event of performing a Battle Regimen thus giving the player base no reason to not use it and even allows players to communicate in battle more effectively because that is one less thing they have to worry about executing. Now I know that this makes performing the "regular attack Battle Regimen effect" the same as before and I can't think of a better way to incorporate this than as my proposal above, but I view this as "using most Battle Regimens is better than using none at all" and it's still possible to perform the regular attack Battle Regimens.

Also, this helps players to maneuver around monsters more quickly to be in the most advantageous spot in event of using tactically placed actions or evading monster AOEs.

2. I'm pretty sure that most of the player base is former FFXI players (whether they liked FFXI or not) and that they would not find this as being something they are not familiar with and maybe even as an improvement to FFXI since combat would still much more quickly paced than FFXI since you can use TP actions much more frequently.

[Betelgeuzah]

1. Spamming attacks is an issue for me since I get locked into this "spam queue" where I cannot do any other action until this queue has been executed, which in turn prevents me form using actions such as Feint (500 TP: In the event that you miss an attack you may use this action to perform a guaranteed hit) since there is a specific amount of time to use this action as well as prolonging me to use any other action that isn't restricted by a time limit like this which in some cases causes wasted TP since I like certain TP actions that can use 3000 TP and this queue can force several regular hits after I have already acquired 3000 TP.

Honestly, this sounds like an issue with the queued attacks system to me. They should get rid of that and make the actions instant (300ms lag is always there, but that's a fraction of what it is now).

2. I'm pretty sure that most of the player base is former FFXI players (whether they liked FFXI or not) and that they would not find this as being something they are not familiar with and maybe even as an improvement to FFXI since combat would still much more quickly paced than FFXI since you can use TP actions much more frequently.

SE shouldn't be looking at the current player base but the potential playerbase, who are familiar with being able to actually play the game and communicate with a means that doesn't require the gameplay to be uninvolved.

Regardless, it would be nice to get some info on the subject from the director. I'm sure there are topics in the JP forum he could reply to, and then be translated. I think it would help immensely if we knew what exactly the dev team is thinking on the subject so that we can direct our feedback in the right direction. Hopefully a community team member can do something about this .

[ChiefCurrahee]

I've talked about this in length in the battle content forums I have a thread about is there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-battle-system

however,

I'm all for a auto attack system. Let me tell you, playing FFXIV with a gamepad, the current battle system and it's UI is terrible. playing for little bursts at a time it's tolerable but sit down and play for 30 minutes god forbid a hour and it becomes tedious.

Seriously, A new combat system needs to happen especially if SE wants to place ANY hope in the PS3 release having a favorable light. The player base should be concerned about this as well.

Currently on a game pad taking actions and navigating the action bar takes twice as many inputs as opposed to KB/mouse.

This is the current input needed with all skills in a row on the action bar.

Full Thrust > Protect > Shock Spikes < < Full Thrust > > > Skewer II > Feint < < < < Full Thrust

to do 7 actions it takes 19 button presses. Thats with all the skills lined up in a row.

What would Auto Attack do in this situation?

Basic attacks (Light Thrust Heavy Thrust and Full Thrust) will become your auto attack

SO it now looks like this
(auto attack) Protect > Shock Spikes (auto attack ) > Skewer II > Feint (Auto attack)
7 button presses for a total of 7 actions.

In nearly all circumstances it will take TWICE as many player inputs in the current battle system as opposed to a system with an auto attack.

taking away a player inputted basic attack and replacing it with an auto attack is probably the middle ground people who like combat control and want a functional UI with a gamepad need.

So what do I propose?

All basic attacks are now auto attacks. Attack and be turned on/off (while weapon is drawn) as not to break sleep or bind or other forms of crowd control. The rate of attack is based on weapon type. So 2 handers attack slow but hit hard, and one handers attack fast but light. Auto attacks generate TP which is used for abilities or weapon skills. the Rate of attack can be augmented through the use of food, spells or gear.

Stamina remains in place and is used to govern the amount of Spells/Skills you can use in a time frame. Stamina is regenerated at a steady rate which can be augmented through food, spells or abilities.

Spells, Weapon skills, and abilities consume TP and/or Stamina and can be used at will as long as you have the available TP and/or stamina to do so.

Battle regimens abilities can be cued up (TP and stamina for skill consumed) Auto attack continues until regimen is completed or canceled. No WS or abilities can be used while cued for a battle regimen.

I think a battle system of this type allows for the fast paced action of firing of abilities spells and weapon skills while taking the chore of basic attacks for TP gain out of the equation. This allow room for socialization while in battle and creates less for a work load for the player.

[Shaolin]

I don't really have an issue with standard attacks spamming on PGL. I do many different moves I'm usually not spamming one button for very long. However, PGL does gain TP far faster then most other classes. Depending on how many hits land and the dmg done. I do heavy > flurry > TP or Heavy > flurry > flurry > TP for normal mobs.

It takes a little longer on NM's cause dmg is less, but it's not really that bad. Most of the time I get to 500 tp on NM then do a debuff regiment with heavy strike which usually covers the last 500 for the damage regiment with TP attacks.

Archer, I wont even get started on, but it's about the same story for it.

[Betelgeuzah]

Seriously, A new combat system needs to happen especially if SE wants to place ANY hope in the PS3 release having a favorable light. The player base should be concerned about this as well.

Once again, it should be noted that this thread is in no way a statement that the combat system should stay as-is. The point is that they shouldn't change the system without any reason behind it.

This thread is, in fact, a statement saying that if S-E changes the combat system this way, it will not be seen in a favorable light by anyone except those who want XI's combat because it's XI's combat.

[Kilta_Firelotus]

I think Auto attack shoulfd never have been developed. Anyone in favor of one are not gamers. Auto attack just makes for lazy gamers. There have been many times in ffxi where the "tank" would just walk off. Don't say anything then come back once he was dead. Only to be upset about it.

This will happen in ff14. It did happen in ff11. And after about 2 years players stop chatting in parties. They was too focused on the exp/hr to bother. They only wanted to lvl up, get to end game. They didn't want to chat and feel it slowed the game down. I ran into tons of ppl like this playing ff11.

Auto attack is also a dull concept. I would much rather have the simply combat from Zelda twilight princess then have Auto attack ala dragon age origans.

[OmegaNovaios]

I think Auto attack shoulfd never have been developed. Anyone in favor of one are not gamers. Auto attack just makes for lazy gamers. There have been many times in ffxi where the "tank" would just walk off. Don't say anything then come back once he was dead. Only to be upset about it.

This will happen in ff14. It did happen in ff11. And after about 2 years players stop chatting in parties. They was too focused on the exp/hr to bother. They only wanted to lvl up, get to end game. They didn't want to chat and feel it slowed the game down. I ran into tons of ppl like this playing ff11.

Auto attack is also a dull concept. I would much rather have the simply combat from Zelda twilight princess then have Auto attack ala dragon age origans.

I played FFXI off and on for around 8 years and I personally never had that problem. I had very active parties all co-operating on creating Skillchains and sometimes even having Magic Bursts.

If there was any MMO with true action combat like Zelda or even an official Zelda MMO it would probably overpopulate WOW's highest peak within a week of launch. Either this is beyond any technology we have to incorporate into an MMO considering the overhaul to server as well as PC performance or it takes too much work to implement and balance into an MMO. However, I would love to see this in an MMO.