[dev1022] Auto-attack system questions and discussion

[Seikninkuru]

Whts wrong with using Heavy Slash? its better to gain some hate through heavy slash while trying to use ur others moves such as rampart / sentinel / cure etc to get more hate/survive, and not stand there without doing anything while these skills are charging up.

Umm, because you have phalanx for your hate/dps. Heavy stab(not slash, sorry) takes a 3rd of your stam bar... All of your abilities take up a significant portion of stamina bar... using that as spam is terrible management of your stamina. If you learned how to use your pools tactically it would never be an issue of spamming an attack, your attack is reactionary.

No wonder so many people have problems with the game they're terrible.

[Synapse]

Umm, because you have phalanx for your hate/dps. Heavy stab(not slash, sorry) takes a 3rd of your stam bar... All of your abilities take up a significant portion of stamina bar... using that as spam is fucking terrible management of your stamina. If you learned how to use your pools tactically it would never be an issue of spamming an attack, your attack is reactionary.

No wonder so many people have problems with the game they're fucking terrible.

i dont recall anyone saying spamming heavy/light slash/stab, i was under the impression IF we had auto attack(assuming it doesnt cost any stamina, if it did it, thn auto would be useless), we could focus more on the other ability to keep hate and survive.

[Whax]

I think auto attack could be implemented as on/off feature. I can see myself using like that, on for farm and rank up and off for more strategic battles like NM.

[Alcide]

Seriousely, I really can't seem to understand how can someone think the battle system is spammy, i NEVER spam auto attack.

If you feel the game is spammy just learn how to play your class, don't blame the devs.

[Nipa]

Seriousely, I really can't seem to understand how can someone think the battle system is spammy, i NEVER spam auto attack.

If you feel the game is spammy just learn how to play your class, don't blame the devs.

I leveled from 1 to 25, as a conjurer, mainly doing Behests and leves. I did not found any solo-target skill with a better dps than my standard attack. I tried to use spells, but unless they hit at lest 3 targets, I found it wasn't worth it.

Basically all what I did was spamming 1 (with a macro) and a heal here and there.

I am ok with this gameplay during the first 30 minutes of the game. But after that, I expect at least a more interesting skill rotation. And I certainly don't count the unnecessary buff recast as a rotation.

I'm not blamming the devs for the system. Maybe there is a more efficient rotation than spamming 1, but after hours of play I wasn't able to find it.

And this, from my point of view, is exactly the same : after hours of gameplay, I can only spam 1, and this is certainly not interesting.

So if there is actually something better to do than spamming the basic attack, devs should make this clearer to the player. And I'm speaking of in-game information, not obscure hints maybe written on a page of the lodestone.

As explained earlier, 'bigger numbers' or 'different (and visible!) effects' for abilities could be a nice solution.

[Griss]

If the #1 slot is converted to an auto attack on/off toggle and these attacks are at no stamina cost say at a set interval or delays are added to weapons i am all for it honestly. it wouldn't "Ruin" guild mark attacks or secondary's it would make them more valuable, they stay at will attacks at the cost of stamina that have nice effects and generate extra tp.

Now mind you i am pro auto attack for melee/mage classes i am very weary of putting archer and any future ranged classes on full auto.

[RodimusPrime]

Might as well increase the damage by all abilities, rather than implementing auto attack. Honestly don't see the point in it.

[Alcide]

Might as well increase the damage by all abilities, rather than implementing auto attack. Honestly don't see the point in it.

This ^

Normal attacks in FFXIV are NOT meant to be spammed, they have different effects like all the other abilities so there's no point in spamming them and there's no point in an auto attack feature.
You absolutely don't have to spam normal attacks on NM, in several occasions you even have to stop dps, so what's the point? you want it so you can chat during guildleves? pretty lame.

Basically if you want an auto attack feature you want a dot and, guess what, you already have plenty of them :O cast poison, dia, bio, drown or whatever you want, so you can keep chatting >.>

[SydeBeheln]

Auto battle might not be such a bad thing if you consider the outcome. By having auto battle, stamina would continuously refill, rather than being reset(like it does with the current system) every time you use standard attack. With that in mind, rapid Weapon skilling, and more occasional MANUAL input on other abilities would make up for the lack of "active combat".

Another solution I thought about, was to increase the stamina cost for "standard attack". Doing this would allow more free time for player communication, and reduce "spamming". Increase the AP rewarded per standard attack, and relatively you have the same system with more free time.

Either one of two before-mentioned ideas would work if you consider all of the variables.

[Amsai]

I too would really like an auto-attack, but what I really want to get acoss is how I would like the battles to feel.

Battle needs 2 things imo:
1. Depth.
2. Weight.

Depth creates immersion and involvement, and weight gives meaning to your decisions in battle. FFXIV does a really good job with the current battle system with depth, and FFXI did a good job with weight. FFXIV has a fairly involved system that keeps you occupied. I can definately see the appeal of that, and I hope they keep it. FFXI while in most cases was not as involved due to that game's auto-attack and long recasts; did provide me with a sense of weight. Sure FFXI's combat was slower paced, but when you did finally use a spell/WS/abillity it mattered. Most other MMOs have little or no sense of weight, because the abilities/spells are all instant gratification. And to me its the same complaint that people are making about FFXIV's basic attacks. Only with other games its more like 1, 2, 3, 4 repeat instead of 1, 1, 1, 1.

I would like auto-attack, but would want it to be implemented in a battle system that is a cross between FFXI and FFXIV like a couple of others in the thread have suggested. The current battle system does feel some what spammy to me so an auto-attack could definately help that. The bigger issue in my opinion is that its harder to communicate. I've seen a few people in this thread brush it off as lame, but this is an MMO and it revolves around interaction. If SE intended the battle system to be so involving, then they should have included a built in voice chat.

I'd like to elaborate more on most MMOs on the market having their entire battle system be a spam-fest. WoW, EQ, GW and LOTRO all feel like one big spam-fest. They even have auto-attack, but it still feels like your just rushing through a rotation. So while I would like the battle system to be changed to include auto-attack, I would not want it at the expense of depth, or the exclusion of adding more weight. Because while FFXIV's battle system is not lacking at all in depth, it could use a bit more punch in the weight department (though its lack of weight is nothing compared to most other MMOs excluding FFXI). I want battle to be involving like it currently is in FFXIV, but I want my WS/abillities/spells to feel like they matter (especially higher level ones). When I cast a buff/debuff, I don't want to recast it a second later. When I cast a powerful nuke, it should take time to cast it (I'm a mage not an archer). And when I use a really powerful special ability, I should not be able to use it 15 seconds later.

I am not much of an idea man, but I can spot what I like and dislike about the battle system. So I am not really sure how to accomplish an auto-attack system that has depth and weight, but I know thats what is missing. Borrowing from one of the other posters: I like the idea of turning the base attacks into different types of auto-attacks, and that they could be toggled off or on. I also like that classes would attack at different strengths and speeds depending on their weapon and auto-attack type. This would go towards making things less spammy and making communication easier.

K so here is my attempt at an idea:
To keep depth and add weight maybe have every class have three seperate ability categories: magic (yes even melee based "spells"), tactics and weapon skills. Magic would be on global cooldowns and use up MPs (and still making MP management be important and adding some refresh abilities to certain classes). Tactics would be what are currently called abillties and would use stamina. Stamina would start at zero and drop down as it was used, but would build up based on points you'd get from the use of both magic and WSs. Weapon Skills would still use TP of course, and would be built up from your auto-attack. TP gain would depend on weapon and auto-attack type, but could also be augmented with haste. Tactics would be the center piece of this system, as youd wand to build it up to get access to more potent abilites and effects. Consequently it would be harder to get stamina points, and it would be neccessary to put the "weaker" melee abilities under the "melee spells" (or we could call it something else if thats too weird) category. In addition to this, mages would need to get a lot of Tactics abilities added to them that would greatly augment the power or efffect of their spells and thus make getting stamina points important for them as well.

Good? Bad? I should be executed for crimes against FFXIV?

So in summary: Yes to auto-attack, but keep the depth of the battle system, and add in more weight to my decisions.