Summoners useless in 24mans?

[TwiztedHarlequin]

The stupidity in this thread is absolutely astonishing , first of all there IS a cap , secondly its HIGHLY likely the 3 group WILL perform together at some point doing the same boss etc otherwise as previously mentioned it would be entire pointless to do a 24 man instance in the first place , and last but not least heres a bit of math for the ones that still believe a 30 debuff cap is more than enough :

each of the 3 groups needs at least 1 tank so i just go with PLD here

PLD : don't know the actual skill names since i didn't play my PLD very far but as far as i know they have about 3 "debuffs / dots" that have to be up constantly 3 x 3 = 9

30 - 9 = 21 NEXT!

Each of the three group will AT LEAST have 1 bard ( more likely 2 considering their "contributional value" but lets go with 1 for each group :

BARD : 3 bards each constantly keeping up windbite + venomous bite because those two alone already make up a good ammount of every competent bards dps and theres rain of death which reduces a targets overall dmg output by 10% must have in bossfights so we're at : 3 x 3 = 9

21 - 9 = 12 NEXT!

Dragoons~ lets just assume theres 1 in every group as well

DRG : phlebotomize + disembowel + chaos thrust are a regular part of every dragoons rotaion and a must have , otherwise they'd be seriously gimping their dps potential and those dots / debuffs have to be up all the time , and i'm already being generous here only counting those , some dragoons even weave fracture into their rotation so that would make 4 dots / debuffs per dragoon but i only count 3 for now , and again 3 x 3 = 9

12 - 9 = 3 NEXT!

Monks~ they as well have a couple of debuffs / dots that should be up permanently to maximize dps / playing at optimal efficiency

MNK : touch of death + demolish 2 high potency dots and also dragon kick which lowers targets blunt resistance by 10% here as well all 3 are a must have for monks otherwise dps will drop considerably oh and onks as well as dragoons "can" theoretically use fracture as well as an additional dot but i'm leaving that one out here again since its "optional" to have in the rotation , and here we go yet again :
3 x 3 = 9

3 - 9 = -6 so yeah here we are , only 4 classes through and there are already 6 debuffs / dots that can't be applied anymore since we're already over the cap , and hey there are still 4 slots left 1 for WHM's that often like to throw in their aero for a little "extra" dps and since a WHM in every group is a must have thats 3 x 1 = 3 , then for the ideal group we have scholars as the second healer for every group and guess what? my main is scholar and everytime theres a "calm phase of low incoming damage" in bossfights etc i always quickly switch to cleric stance and quickly drop a bio + aero AT LEAST ( often more like bioII misma / thunder depending on how much time i have ) then switch out and go full on healing again like every competent scholar does , so since we're being generous lets just count the bio + aero combo which is 3 x 2 = 6 alright~ so far so good..hmmm 2 slots left for each of the 3 parties...lets say each party also has a BLM with them which has a dot too that should be up at all times ( thunder ) so thats 3 x 1 = 3 ALLRIGHT! ONE party member slot left for each of the 3 groups and we're already 18 debuffs / dots over the cap which means 18 of those ESSENTIAL debuffs / dots already don't count , so now the last 3 slots we reserve for our dear summoners each of them having ~5-6 ESSENTIAL dot / debuff effects as well so we're roughly !!>>> 33 <<<!! dots / debuffs OVER the cap already completely crippling summoners damage output and also that of all other classes and as i mentioned this is a VERY generous math i did there and i only used ESSENTIAL debuffs / dots for this equation i didn't even count skills such as blind , slow , eye for an eye , heavy , >> stuns << ( not being able to land a stun means wipe in many of the current highend bossfights and i'm sure it will get even worse in the future ) , virus and a couple of others that don't come to mind atm , so all in all we're pretty much screwed with the current cap
and even if you take into consideration that rain of death debuff / dragon kick / chaos thrust only needs to be applied by one of the respective classes means you can only substract 6 debuffs / dots in total that still leaves us with 27 over cap

Oh yeah forgot something : some peoples argument "well in a proper FC group summoners will tell other classes to skip out on dots so the summoners can place theirs" is completely invalid simply because melees dots / bards / blm's dots aren't any weaker than summoners dots , more like the opposite since summoners dots don't deal inital damage ( which kinda does get mitigated by fester at the end , which still makes them at best only "on par" ) the only difference is summoners simply have twice as many dots as other classes , not necessarily stronger ones despite them being a " dot class "

[Zfz]

As palaidn:

Rage of Halone strength debuff will ALWAYS be up, avoiding that means you don't want a Paladin there.
Blind from Flash will often be up, although not always, and can be avoided if asked.
Silence will be up every now and then for 1 second, although it can be avoided if asked.
No-WS will be up very often for a few seconds each time, although it can be avoided if asked.
Circle of Scorn will be up every so often, although it can be avoided if asked.
Knock-down will appear whenever you ask the paladin to interrupt, although it can be avoided if the Paladin never interrupt anything.

So in the extreme case, the Paladin can perform reasonably close to maximum capacity with 1 debuff.
For the Paladin to perform at full capacity, he needs to have access to 6 debuff slots.

Although I think Blind, Silence, No-WS and Knock-down may all be shared categorical debuffs, maybe people who do FATEs can check if you ever see double Blinds up?

If these are categorical, then Paladin needs minimum 1 slot, and to perform at full capacity needs 2 slots plus 4 shared slots.