FFXIV Bitter Sweet

[roohan]

I dont know taking FFXI as a reference... The initial release of FFXI it had much less content. The city story mission were nothing compared to later content like Chains of Promethia. In my opinion it's way too early to judge over the game. Also, leveling one job can be fast in the game but I take that as a chance to finally level more than one job at the same time. That was a problem in FFXIs earlier days, because crafting was damn expensive and took many hours. Not to mention that crafting was no fun. That's why I think the pace of the game is fine. The only thing I agree is that the game doesn't force people to play together. I don't want FFXI dumb XP parties back but it could be a bit more community play

[Soukyuu]

As for the smaller area's, the excuse that it had to be ported to console and the PS3 couldn't handle it, is a complete bogus excuse. If the PS2 could handle FFXI area's, the PS3 can handle the same sized area's and bigger. The only problem FFXIV 1.0 had was that it was poorly scripted and executed, and not properly streamlined which is why the PS3 was having issues with it. If they fixed that, there is no reason why the area's couldn't be as big and open ended like 1.0's were.

The devs themselves said their main problem with the PS3 was memory. Also, FFXI might have bigger areas, but the game was made with PS2 in mind, meaning the details of the maps, textures etc were adjusted to that. And to be honest, FFXI does look a bit bland, from what I saw, compared to FFXIV. You have to keep in mind, that the PS2 was next gen at that time, though, while the PS3 now is already last gen. If you can't imagine what it means, try to get your hands on a 7800GT and play any game@720p/1080p. You'll see the performance limit immediately, and that chip is the same that the PS3 uses. So it's a miracle the devs managed to squeeze out 30fps out of it.

The whole talk about a separate DX11 client/PS4 version is so that they can go wild with the effects on more modern hardware. They can't make the clients too different though, so map size have to be set to the least common denominator - in our case the PS3. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying they have to keep the world small. The maps will stay the current size, but they could make more of them, and they will make more of them with expansions. That's why the comparison with FFXI is not really fair, as people said before.

[MistressAthena]

The devs themselves said their main problem with the PS3 was memory. Also, FFXI might have bigger areas, but the game was made with PS2 in mind, meaning the details of the maps, textures etc were adjusted to that. And to be honest, FFXI does look a bit bland, from what I saw, compared to FFXIV. You have to keep in mind, that the PS2 was next gen at that time, though, while the PS3 now is already last gen. If you can't imagine what it means, try to get your hands on a 7800GT and play any game@720p/1080p. You'll see the performance limit immediately, and that chip is the same that the PS3 uses. So it's a miracle the devs managed to squeeze out 30fps out of it.

The whole talk about a separate DX11 client/PS4 version is so that they can go wild with the effects on more modern hardware. They can't make the clients too different though, so map size have to be set to the least common denominator - in our case the PS3. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying they have to keep the world small. The maps will stay the current size, but they could make more of them, and they will make more of them with expansions. That's why the comparison with FFXI is not really fair, as people said before.

Still a weak excuse. There are ways around that, as you said, build it with the PS3 in mind, that being said, they did, but still limited it more than it needed to be with proper optimization.

But lets say you are right, and they did push out every last ounce of the PS3's capability (even if I don't believe it myself). What are the new area's going to bring? More level 50-60-70 dungeons of yet more grinding for hundreds of hours just to get another suit of armor that just has better stats? ultimately the whole real issue comes down to the fact the End Game is the games only focus.. What can they really add to give it depth? That's the 1 serious issue they are going to have.

Sorry to use FFXI again as an example, I know its over used, but its the best example I have from personal experience.

FFXI had not just End Game to focus on of grinding Sea, Sky, etc. But it also had the normal leveling parties (which were fun to alot of people, though maybe not all the time). You had NM's, HNM's to go out and hunt, which was fun. You had a difficult, and very interesting story to each expansion which took a long time to get through because it required a party, and even then took hours to get through those area's at best.

You had AF quests to go after which again, took weeks of focusing to obtain. You had side quests for extra skills which took time and patience to obtain.

The list goes on and on of possibilities other than just "End game" to focus on in FFXI, all of which were fun to do.

So again.. What can FFXIV bring to the table to pull away from "Just an End Game Grind of boredom".

[Soukyuu]

It not a weak excuse, it's a fact. I don't know your background, but coming from the programming side myself, I know how fast a system can become the limit. If they designed FFXIV completely with PS3 in mind, we'd have the copy-pasted 1.0 maps again.

The problem are not the maps though, but as you said, the focus on instanced content. This is a trend in most recent MMOs, because people are selfish and don't want someone else to have "their" monsters. Open worlds are dying off and everything is getting moved to instances, which just reinforces the "us and them" mentality, where people keep all things to their linkshells/FCs and don't socialize with people outside it. Of course there are people who don't follow that path, but those are few, hence not a focus for SE.

It all boils down to what the majority wants. And the majority doesn't want an open world.
They want quick runs to get their 1337 gear so they can stand around in uldah with their weapons out.

I'm not saying it's fine like this, but we are obviously not the majority, but a niche audience.
I am glad SE at least gave a damn about the quest texts and the game actually having a story.

[MistressAthena]

It not a weak excuse, it's a fact. I don't know your background, but coming from the programming side myself, I know how fast a system can become the limit. If they designed FFXIV completely with PS3 in mind, we'd have the copy-pasted 1.0 maps again.

The problem are not the maps though, but as you said, the focus on instanced content. This is a trend in most recent MMOs, because people are selfish and don't want someone else to have "their" monsters. Open worlds are dying off and everything is getting moved to instances, which just reinforces the "us and them" mentality, where people keep all things to their linkshells/FCs and don't socialize with people outside it. Of course there are people who don't follow that path, but those are few, hence not a focus for SE.

It all boils down to what the majority wants. And the majority doesn't want an open world.
They want quick runs to get their 1337 gear so they can stand around in uldah with their weapons out.

I'm not saying it's fine like this, but we are obviously not the majority, but a niche audience.
I am glad SE at least gave a damn about the quest texts and the game actually having a story.

I don't believe this is a majority. I believe it is just the most outspoken minority tbh. If you actually go out and talk to people, they may at first be like "oh yea the game is fine!" but them ore you talk to them, the more they'll start to say "well yea it would be better this way or that".

I think the novelty of FFXIV will wear off very quickly as people realize its nothing but a grind for literally nothing achieving, and new MMO's are released. It may even be a year before that happens, but it will happen if the game stays how it is. Open Worlds are not dieing off, and alot of people wanted more party, social oriented gaming for FFXIV, which Yoshi failed to deliver. 1.0 had it, and it was great, and people loved that aspect of it. What they didn't love was how poorly the game itself played due to bad optimization, and how certain things were far harder than they needed to be which caused balance issues. Crafting being a good example. Crafting was much harder than it needed to be, (not saying the stupid easy version of FFXIV is better mind you), but when your game literally depends on crafters to make items as you cannot get those equipments anywhere else, then you have a serious problem.

What Yoshi ultimately did was strip everything players loved about 1.0, and replaced it with dumbed down and shallow content, while fixing the problems of 1.0... Basically the good/bad was switched, literally. As now we have more than enough equipment, and everythings stupid easy, but now we have a chaotic market of it being flooded with literally everything. We have a smoother running game, but ultimately much more shallow than 1.0 was as a whole...

Anyway, to not go off on a tangent..... Yoshi I believe, needs to realize this, and despite what he said of how "FFXIV 1.0 developers had no real focus" is ultimately a lie. They did, they just didn't bring it to the players right, and while Yoshi has a focus as well, he's failing to realize some very critical things.

It seems to me as my final note, that Yoshi is attempting to do what WoW did, and copy it, without realizing that the novelty of WoW has all but died away for the mass majority as well, and we still have mass numbers of MMO players looking for that solid, immersive gaming experience that old MMO's used to bring and are literally jumping from 1 MMO to the next as they are released. Yoshi missed a golden opportunity to deliver that, and I fear that FFXIV will be another so-so MMO that most players leave as soon as that new MMO comes out 1-2 years down the road and FFXIV will just be another foot note.

[Soukyuu]

I'm more inclined to think we're the vocal minority, after all we're the ones discussing these things, and not the ones who keep silent. On topic of WoW, I think I remember Yoshida mention exactly what you did, that another WoW isn't happening. They still wanted to take things that made WoW good though, and bring it to FFXIV.

After the disaster the 1.0 version initially was, they simply couldn't afford to experiment, thus they went with the "proven" concept. I don't think that they are unaware that it was both proven to work for WoW, and proven to fail if you just make a WoW clone. And I don't feel like ARR is a WoW clone. Similar, yeah, a clone, I don't think so.

[MistressAthena]

I'm more inclined to think we're the vocal minority, after all we're the ones discussing these things, and not the ones who keep silent. On topic of WoW, I think I remember Yoshida mention exactly what you did, that another WoW isn't happening. They still wanted to take things that made WoW good though, and bring it to FFXIV.

After the disaster the 1.0 version initially was, they simply couldn't afford to experiment, thus they went with the "proven" concept. I don't think that they are unaware that it was both proven to work for WoW, and proven to fail if you just make a WoW clone. And I don't feel like ARR is a WoW clone. Similar, yeah, a clone, I don't think so.

I'm not saying its a clone exactly, but its bringing nothing to the table literally. Right now its just a boring grind of absolutely nothing worthwhile but a new pair of equipment that doesn't even do anything worthwhile for you besides open up yet another 100 hours of grinding in a new dungeon. They have to figure out something to get away from this. A new story won't cut it if its non stop more dungeons. They have to figure out a way to make crafting worhwhile.

This game is gonna be a massive mess, 1 I'm sure SE is already feeling. How do you make Crafting worthwhile, like really worthwhile when all the equipment people need or want comes from dungeons, and dungeon drops? Even now the crafting as a whole is worthless except for the 2 star items, mostly however it collects dust if not Materia melding (that of which is completely pointless in and of itself).

I'm both excited, and scared to see what they bring on the new expansion they are working on. New Area's, new mobs, new dungeons and new story simply won't cut it. Since half of that is obsolete before they even make it. Monsters are pointless, or nearly pointless... When do you ever need to kill them other htan to craft? you can run past them no problem, and they pose no issue. So new mobs are ultimately pointless, New Area's, again.. filled with pointless stuff. New dungeons.. yay more grinding for hundreds of hours! Only good thing will be the new story and once that novelty wears off its.. bleh...

So I'm really wondering, what could they possibly add to make FFXIV worthwhile, and have depth. hmmm.... I know I'm being overly blunt, and possibly throwing a bit out of proportion (but not much). The whole point is.. they really gotta give something new to the player base.

[Soukyuu]

Making crafting worthwhile could be done by making those recipes an alternative to the farmed gear. Either farm the mats or farm the dungeons. Both is farming though. They can't make one or the other more lucrative if they want to keep the balance. I heard that Darksteel stuff is on par with Darklight, and it involves melding stuff to it. It also has a different look, so people not liking DL can go the alternative route. Which also makes for some diversity in player looks.

And yes, they said the world mobs are just trash mobs. So I don't think this is going to change. Log in, get a group, open DF, spam content. That's the game it is. I do enjoy most of the encounters though, so that's fine in itself. Having that open world laying out there deserted is a shame, really.

[Vansair]

Coming from XI and having played the beta for 1.0 i can say this game is not only enjoyable but one i will be playing for a long long time. On leveling im glad its not like lvling was in XI granted i loved that game with a passion but getting to 75 was almost a 6-8 month Period for those who didnt have their entire life to throw at the game and even then it took 4-6 with 4-5 hours a day. lvling was tedious and just a chore in Xi granted you felt accomplished after hitting 75 but i just hit 50 on my Dragoon and i still had that same feeling of accomplishment. Fate grinding was a small part of it but in all i lvled the same way i lvled in XI old school party grinding, but in the end it all comes down to one simple question. Do you enjoy the game? Take a game with its flaws or leave it. XI was hugely flawed and second job and well a second life yet i played that for 10 years.

[NeruMew]

So I made a reply and it says it's too long.... I wasnt gonna post it anymore but after seeing your last reply MistressAthena I think you should see it, but anyway.... Imma quote just one thing of it and post it all if you care for it but doubtfully.

...that ultimately we are the ones who choose how to enjoy the game, and what to

make out of it. If you don't like it or find something aggravating, you can always find a way of fixing it for yourself.

As last resort, you can just quit the game, if you find it too aggravating, after all it's there to enjoy it. Don't bring hazard things into your life if you can avoid it :3

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EDIT: Try to stay positive! I'm sure it'll go forward and get better! :P I have high hopes -.- Either way however the game is right now I still enjoy it, tho I'm sure I don't have anywhere near as many hours as many of the people that complain about the grinding and such have XD