BRD Cooldown sequence?

[gotaplanstan]

Do you never SS unless you have HS proc? If the answer is no, then it makes no sense to open with HS.

that's not what I said was it? let's do some math shall we?

your way:

ss = 140 potency
wb = 45 potency (1 tick)
bl = 150 potency
vb = 35 potency (1 tick)
hs = 150 potency

since I was generous giving a tick worth of dmg for vb I'll be conservative and say that you'll only have 30% crit chance due to ss and ir for wb/vb tick crit to proc bl

bl = 150 potency

30% of 150 is 45, but it only happens 50% of the time on crits, or 15% of the time...but with the example we assumed 2 ticks, which gives a 27.45% chance of proccing...

so total you're looking at an average of 41.175 which gives a total average of 561.175 potency doing things your way

--------------
my way:

hs = 150 potency
wb = 45 potency
bl = 150 potency
vb = 35 potency
ss = 182 potency (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140)

total potency = 562

[pandabearcat]

snip

Your way is flawed, because you fail to acknowledge your actual crit rate increases with SS.

Assuming a 15% base crit (which is around 500 crit rating)

Your way

HS - 150*(.15*1.5 + .85) = 161.25
SS - 140*(.2*1.5 + .8*(.15*1.5+.85)) = 162.4
WB (and 1 tick) - 105*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 118.125
VB - 100*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 112.5

Total = 554.275

Orig way

SS - 140*(.15*1.5 + .85) = 150.5
WB - and 2 ticks, 150*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 168.75
VB - 1 tick, 135*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 151.875
HS - 150 * (.25*1.5 + .75) = 168.75

Total = 639.875

So...yea. Not to mention, with IR, its skewed even more towards getting SS and dots up first instead of delaying 2.5 seconds.

Also, thats not even mentioning the extra tick of possible bloodletter reset chance.

Also, you have to delay bloodletter in your scenario in order to take advantage of IR and SS.

EDIT: Furthermore, your formula for SS (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140) is wrong, as you don't have a .2 chance of crit, and then a 1.0 chance of "normal", you have a .2 chance of crit, and a .8 chance of normal. Aka it would look like (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140*.8), which is even lower than my way of accounting for base crit.

[gotaplanstan]

snip

your edit is correct, unfortunately that's kind of irrelevant

for 1, your estimation that wb will tick two times is wrong, if you look at the timing on the sequence you're using as an example it would look like this:

ss = 0.0s
wb = 2.5s
vb = 5.0s
hs = 7.5s

last I checked, 5 =/= 6, and last I checked dots tick every 3s, so there's no possible way for a second tick to occur

that means your wb damage is cut in half, to 84.375, as well as your total, which gives us 555.5

but wait, we just realized that 5 =/= 6, so I think it's safe to say 2.5 =/= 3 as well yes? so that gives us zero VB ticks in the proposed sequence

that reduces the total potency from 555.5 to 403.625

[pandabearcat]

that reduces the total potency from 555.5 to 403.625

Because DoTs are on the global timer, you have no clue when your dot is actually going to apply.

It doesn't automagically start counting 3 seconds after you apply a DoT.

Realistically...lets look at the timer.

[0.0 sec] - SS
[~1.0 sec] - SS applies
[2.5 sec] - Cast WB
[~3.5 sec] - WB applies
[5.0 sec] - Cast VB
[~6.0 sec] - VB applies
[7.5 sec] - Cast HS
[10.0 sec] - End of HS GCD

So...the time between WB application (~3.5 sec) and end of HS (10.0 sec) is at least 6.5 seconds, which means it is guaranteed that there are 2 ticks, maybe even 3. So I am doing the actual, MINIMUM # of ticks possible, rather than Maximum, and certainly not "impossible".

Between VB (~6.0 sec) and end of HS GCD (10.0 sec) is 4 seconds, again guaranteeing 1 tick, and maximum 2 ticks.

Notice I also took into account animation delay (the ~1 second) in case we are being that nitpicky about DoT timings.

Furthermore, if you're going to subtract ticks from my argument, you must also do the same for yours. So...please. Pay attention here. We're not enemies lol, but again, I wanted to restate why your method doesn't work.

Because as I said in my first post, if you are doing this at the beginning of the fight, you must also justify using it in the middle of a fight, when SS is falling off and also your dots. This DOES happen, purely based on positioning of SS procs.

So when theres 1 second left on SS, WS, and VS, do you apply SS? Or do you do HS->SS for a proc?

In order for your way to make any sense you need to do the math on:

HS->SS->WB->BL->VB
vs
SS->WB->BL->VB->HS

Delaying the dots by an extra global for a potential Straighter Shot proc vs not delaying dots. I think you'll find that getting dots up faster is a no brainer.

Exactly, and this is precisely what I compare to here. Also note you need to compare till the end of the last GCD, because you're not doing 4 actions in 7.5 seconds, you're doing it in 10. I do ignore BL though because it is the same damage for both. Though, again, earlier dots mean more chances for River of Blood, which would push the "standard" rotation even more ahead.

EDIT: also your math is just wrong >.> Losing 1 tick each for WS and VS, totals 80 potency, and with 25% chance to crit is still only losing 90 potency. I'm not sure how I suddenly lost a whopping 240 or so potency. I think you were factoring in the base damage into their DoT tick totals, which is simply not correct.

EDIT2: using your rotation, here are the timings

[0.0 sec] - HS
[2.5 sec] - SS
[~3.5 sec] - SS applies
[5.0 sec] - WB
[~6.0 sec] - WB applies
[7.5 sec] - VB
[~8.5 sec] - VB applies
[10.0 sec] - end of VB GCD

As you can see you can only guarantee one tick for WB, 2 ticks max, and 0 ticks for VB, 1 tick max.

So I am giving both rotations equal treatment.

[gotaplanstan]

No offense but unless you can provide proof that dots function the way you're describing, it's safer for me (and everybody else) to assume that it's not accurate.

[pandabearcat]

No offense but unless you can provide proof that dots function the way you're describing, it's safer for me (and everybody else) to assume that it's not accurate.

Lets go with your way of how dots work.

Based on the timings, they WS still ticks twice, from 3.5 sec application to 10.0 sec end.

VS still ticks once, from 6.0 application to 10.0 end.

It is really difficult to argue a point over this amount of ignorance.

Here are the key points.

1. You calculated "dot" damage as to 7.5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. If you do it this way, why don't you calculate your initial dps on the first attack over 0.0 seconds? Do infinite dps? You obviously calculate damage at the end of your last GCD for proper numbers.
2. You only subtracted dot damage from the "standard" way instead of the "hs" way, if you do it for one, do it for the other. You also subtraced something like 240 potency for 2 dot ticks. Did we turn into summoners?
3. You misread the total potency of the attack as the potency of losing a dot tick.
4. You also potentially miss 1 autoattack w/o SS buff. Big difference? Not in the long run, but it does make a difference in these first 10 seconds.
5. You completely ignore that 1 extra tick (2 actually, 3 ticks vs 1 tick) that can give you another BL proc.

No offense but, if you're going to use math to prove your point, at least be consistent and make sure you're using the correct (or at least what we assume to be correct) math.

EDIT: As to the dot thing.

How do you think it works? We agree that dots tick every 3 seconds, yes? That is what everyone agrees on.

Now, do we also agree that all dot damage is lumped into one giant "blob" of damage? You notice this if you ever group with someone. Dot damage is all calculated simulateously.

Now, where in this scenario do you get the idea that your dots are based on YOUR timer, based on when YOU apply your dot? How can it possibly be that way, and still have the above two observed rules be true?

Afaik, the only way it makes sense is whenever it comes time to "check dots" it checks to see if your dot is applied. If it is, it does damage, lumped together with all the other dots.

"safer for everyone else" ...what? You basically ignored my entire post, and went after the only thing that we are possibly unsure on, which I made 3 distinct cases for you that regardless of how it works, unless in some magical universe dots cease to work entirely, where your rotation is just plain wrong.

I'm normally not this angry, but you're kind of pushing my buttons with your spreading of this new rotation with complete disregard for the math. I am trying to be as fair and arbitrary as I can, and you provide anecdotal evidence (btw, for your anecdotal evidence to have confidence within 1%, to actually see the difference, you would need to do hundreds of trials, so unless you spent an entire day rigorously testing, I highly doubt your trials accomplished anything).

Lets go back to the first two posts, shall we? Based on your very first post, you stated that your way gave 562 potency while my way gave 561.175.

Dubious math aside, this is a difference of .825 potency. Then, in your very next post, you acknowledged that your SS formula (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140) was wrong, even in the absence of external crit factors. Thus, right there, your rotation is worse.

That should've ended the discussion, but even after my exhaustive analysis of the rotation, you still remain unconvinced.

I'm really not sure what to say.

[gotaplanstan]

It's a sad day when people who are corrected for being wrong start slinging insults. But, since you seem to want to address specific things I'll bite.

First off, your example IS a 7.5 second window. Why are you trying to say that 2.5 ► 10.0s is the new topic? Because it's not.
Second, regarding the 0.825 potency difference, that's only assuming one of the available ticks proc BL. Whereas the rotation I mentioned does not rely on that, and still out performs it even if it does, even if it is by a fractional margin.
Thirdly, obviously you have some insecurities if you're insulting me when you're wrong. Notice how when I was, I admitted as much and even agreed.

What I suggest you do, is go do some parser testing in Coerthas. Because talking hypothetical scenarios seems to be something you don't do very well.

As far as your last sentence, if you don't have anything constructive or correct to say, usually it's best not to say anything at all.

Cheers.

[Bardo]

my way:

hs = 150 potency
wb = 45 potency
bl = 150 potency
vb = 35 potency
ss = 182 potency (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140)

You can't just look at 1 tick because dots "snapshot" the buffs you have up when you apply them. If you apply them and then apply straight shot later, the entire duration loses out on 10% crit chance. It does not update for each tick individually.
You ALWAYS want SS buff up before applying dots (and IR as well as much as humanly possible).

In order for your way to make any sense you need to do the math on:

HS->SS->WB->BL->VB
vs
SS->WB->BL->VB->HS

Delaying the dots by an extra global for a potential Straighter Shot proc vs not delaying dots. I think you'll find that getting dots up faster is a no brainer.