Time Mage, Geomancer, Dark Knight, Templar, Berserker proposals

[MartaDemireux]

Yes, it is.

They only get Storm's Path and Bloodbath. Both of these convert your own damage to health they do not drain it from the target's HP pool.

It's not difficult to implement a 2 handed sword for DRK off GLA or 1 handed axes for a job off MRD (such as Viking). They already have one handed animations done for axes at least a little bit when you look at Gigas. They use 1 handed axes and resemble Vikings.

[N4RD]

wheres the samurai? thief ? DRK that were promised in 1.0 .... i know i saw them in the old lodstone as info as upcoming updates but nothing ... and where is my Roaming Primels Fates? you think i forgot about thos?

[Kitru]

They only get Storm's Path and Bloodbath. Both of these convert your own damage to health they do not drain it from the target's HP pool.

Actually, they do. If the target only has 50 hp left, you'll only heal for 25 (SP), 13 (Bloodbath), or 150 (Inner Beast) as long as you hit them for at least 50 damage, regardless of how much *harder* you hit them.

It's not difficult to implement a 2 handed sword for DRK off GLA or 1 handed axes for a job off MRD (such as Viking). They already have one handed animations done for axes at least a little bit when you look at Gigas. They use 1 handed axes and resemble Vikings.

There's a pretty big difference between creating animations for monster skeletons and creating animations for player skeletons. The first aren't really applicable to the second because all of those monsters with animations that players don't get aren't using player skeletons while also being simpler to assign/create in the first place: monster animations only apply to a single skeleton whereas there are either 7 or 8 different player skeletons (the male and female skeleton of each race is different with the possible exception of Lalafells that *might* have the same male/female skeleton) and animations have to be made for each of those.

You should never claim that any animation issue is "not difficult to implement". You'd be surprised at exactly how much work is required for implementing them.

[MartaDemireux]

from last page

Berserker:

While I agree a MNK's defense is very low in comparison to a PLD/WAR, you're assuming too much that Berserker will be on the same gear as MNK. They could (and honestly probably will) release a new line of gear for light-armored tanks. They'll have to do this eventually if they make other classes/jobs that could fill this role such as a Ninja, Thief, Mystic Knight or Dancer. If they have 3 varying armor sets for melee DPS (MNK-style, DRG-style, BRD-style) they could just as easily do the same for tanking, healing and casting sets. They have stated that they will be including gear eventually with "other stats" on them as well which could very well be a nod to evasion. I honestly don't think its possible to make a balanced class that tanks in DPS gear but that's just me. On a similar note, is it still possible to do Ifrit in swimsuits like in 1.0? Haven't kept up on that.

To be frank, a lot of your suggestions feel as though it would be making the Berserker almost identical to PLD/WAR. Part of having an evasion based tank is to not have the same HP as a WAR or Defense as a PLD. They're lower for their ability to completely negate a lot of incoming damage and so when they do get hit, they get hit noticeably; it's what balances them. WAR has high HP but little ability to reduce damage. PLD has lower HP but huge ability to reduce damage. An evasion tank should have just enough of both so that they can survive a few hits if they connect but they shouldn't be connecting often as it is.

My implementing 34% damage mitigation isn't huge when you look at how it's achieved. Their major 24% comes in increments of 8% and has to be actively maintained as the buff only lasts 10s. The other 10% is from Fists of Earth which, if the dev team wanted to, could see a return of MP draining. If they lose GL (due to a phase change or something) they could pop Featherfoot to make sure they evade a hit while they rebuild their GL stacks. I think it would be fine.

I don't think Featherfoot should be paired with Inner Calm. 95% chance to evade on top of an 80% chance it won't be critical, while still left up to RNG, are good enough odds in my book. If a hit does land, the odds are very slim in another hit landing. I do think I'd add an effect to it though where if you are hit, the next hit will be guaranteed to miss. My reasoning is if you stacked Featherfoot with its ability to guarantee the first hit to be evaded you'd be hurting the value of a 95% evasion rate (with 3 stacks of greased lightning). I also think I'll reduce the amount of evasion it gives and instead make Instinct give more but not through GL so that they have more overall. It would probably also be fine to include the attack speed due to their already low potencies.

Templar:

Yes, I know increasing an ability to a value instead of by a value has diminishing returns as we get stronger gear and higher levels. However, with the current system of working in tiers it could easily be made so this is the only way to achieve 50%. I don't realistically see hitting 50% through gear and leveling for a very long time at which point the skill could be revised.

If Faith just reduced damage taken where would be the uniqueness to the ability? You can't just look at something so cut and dry because if you do that you end up with classes/jobs being too much alike or boiled down to just one. You could make the same argument for every one of WAR's abilities (why not just make them damage reductions) or for SCH's heals (why not just make them heal). Also, come 2.1 next month WAR will have a 100% uptime of 20% to HP cured and HP+25% on top of its new mitigation so it is not uncalled for to get 10% to both for 60s as a TMP. The design of TMP is to have some aspects of PLD (mitigation) and some aspects of WAR (healing, HP) while still being its own identity through the use of parrying and preventing status ailments.

Yes, Discipline is essentially a Shield Oath with a buff to Parrying but overall TMP won't be a threat it will be a different option.

PLD has this 20% bonus to HP cured and damage reduction. They can both Parry and Block in addition to having 135s duration worth of cooldowns to mitigate their incoming damage which can be cycled. They'll always have additional damage reduction, critical evasion, blocking rate, defense, HP restoration, draw-in/knockback prevention or self healing at any one time. They can even toss in Stoneskin if they wish. Their Block Rate and Strength are also tied not only to their DEX and STR tiers but to their shield as well, making it have good options for future growth as opposed to any parrying based class. They're the king of cooldowns that cover a wide range but all helpful as well as flat damage reduction with twice the chance to mitigate damage by 21~25%+ currently.

WAR has this 20% bonus to HP cured and 25% more HP, 55s duration worth of cooldowns (similar to PLDs list), Storm's Path that can reduce the target's damage dealt as well as heal the WAR, Inner Beast that gives 20% damage reduction for 6s that can be used in 20s buildup (17.5 with vengeance) via a combo every 22.5s, or immediately every 60s via Infuriate (3 times in 67s using combos, 4 times in 69.5s with Infuriate (80% damage reduction for 24s in a period of ~70s (with 16.5s gaps of course))) that again also heals the WAR and Holmgang which prevents the lowering of HP beyond 1 for its duration. They also have parrying and even the ability to drop their damage penalty for 20s for spike enmity. They're the kings of... well the same thing as PLD really now but with half the chance of 21~25%+ mitigation for the trade off of a lot more HP.

TMP has this 20% bonus to HP cured and damage reduction in addition to 20% parrying rate and 5% parrying strength. The increased rate of parrying still doesn't surpass the PLD's rate of combined block and parry chance. In equal gear if the PLD has a 20% chance to parry or block, that's a 40% chance to reduce damage by 21~25%+. The TMP has a 40% chance to parry damage by 26~30%. However, when you count the PLD's shield block value it scales quite differently. Parrying doesn't have a value other than STR that affects its tier so they should eventually balance out. For example, with 471 STR, the TMP would parry 31% damage, the PLD would parry 26% damage and currently would block 26% as well. As soon as a new shield comes out with 200 or more blocking (current highest 181 so likely soon) the PLD will parry 26% still but will block 31%. With TMP's +5% to Parrying Strength under Discipline we can see them matching a PLD, moreso in higher tiers when PLD gets more Blocking Strength and TMP naturally has higher STR. This will make TMP the king of parrying but still not as good at total mitigation as a PLD or as good at self-healing/HP buffing as a WAR but a happy medium with its own role to fill in avoiding status ailments so the healers can focus more on curing them instead of cleansing them which does add up in some fights.

Actually, they do. If the target only has 50 hp left, you'll only heal for 25 (SP), 13 (Bloodbath), or 150 (Inner Beast) as long as you hit them for at least 50 damage, regardless of how much *harder* you hit them.

Then why is it they show no variance in HP levels dropped when you hit them? I just barely hit a level 5 antling for 71 damage with 1 swing, leaving him with 20HP without Bloodbath. I found another one and hit it with Bloodbath again for 71 damage with 1 swing, leaving him with 20HP. The amount we heal may be tied mathematically to how much damage is actually done without counting overdamage but it does not drain the health directly from the monsters HP or else the one I hit with bloodbath would have been left with 3 HP instead of 20. Also you're incorrect on Inner Beast. Level 5 antlings have 91 HP. If Inner Beast is used to kill one, you will only heal 91 HP, not 273. I just hit another one for 71 damage, infuriated IB and healed for 20. Level 5 Syrphid Clouds also have 91 HP it seems, funny that. EDIT: Also if you open with a weaponskill you will auto-attack at the same time. Even though it kills the monster for way more HP than it has Bloodbath will still heal you for 25% of each hit. Just killed a level 1 Huge Hornet with Bloodbath Heavy Swing. They have 44 HP according to IB. Both an auto-attack and HS went off as normal for 108AA 137HS and both healed me 25%. I healed 27HP and 34HP for a total of 61 HP, 17 more than they even have. So I'm not sure exactly what's up with it but one thing is for sure: You do not drain their HP.

You should never claim that any animation issue is "not difficult to implement".

The Gigas Overpower animation is actually just about identical to mine only he's using a 1 handed axe. I really suggest you go out and see for yourself. As I said before they've been using different methods to animate more efficiently, I wish I could find the video of it they put out a while ago. And perhaps I should have said "it's not as difficult as people assume to implement" instead of what I said.

[Kitru]

To be frank, a lot of your suggestions feel as though it would be making the Berserker almost identical to PLD/WAR.

If you honestly think that, I have to wonder if you've actually played or even looked at WAR and PLD particularly closely.

My suggestions are there for *balance* purposes. You have to make sure that tanks scale within close proximity to one another.

Part of having an evasion based tank is to not have the same HP as a WAR or Defense as a PLD.

And I never said that they *should* have the same static mitigation as a PLD. They *should* however have the pretty much the same effective mean mitigation *and* same eHP else they're not going to be balanced with the other tanks: if eHP is too low (which is what happens when you rely almost exclusively on evasion and RNG mechanisms), they'll fall over dead to burst damage; if mean mitigation is too low, they'll burn through healer resources too quickly. Even if you want a tank with high mean mitigation and low eHP (which is what you're going for), you *still* have to have the eHP be high enough so that you're not risking RNG death on a regular basis, which means that you *need* to be within 5-10% of the other tanks' eHP.

This isn't a question of stylistic or creative choice either. It's a fundamental fact about balancing tanks. It happens in *every single game*. There are fundamental minimums that you have to maintain or else the tank will not be effective.

WAR has high HP but little ability to reduce damage. PLD has lower HP but huge ability to reduce damage.

Actually, if you understood the tanking mechanics/math that I've been referring to, you'd realize that WAR and PLD are almost exactly identical as far as mean mitigation and eHP are concerned. The 20% DR that PLD gets is the equivalent of 25% +healing and 25% + hp. WAR is going to be getting 20% +healing and 25% +hp (with some very reliable DR that can be leveraged *really* well). For all intents and purposes, there is no difference *whatsoever* between +hp/+healing and DR. The fact that WAR has a larger hp pool is simply a derivative of not using straight up damage reduction.

Honestly, read this post of mine where I explain all of this in detail.

My implementing 34% damage mitigation isn't huge when you look at how it's achieved.

34% is huge no matter *how* you look at it *and that's not even factoring in the increased evasion*. The amount of eHP and mean mitigation you're providing is *insane* because you're providing so much DR. The argument that stack maintenance is a factor is ludicrous as well given that it only *matters* for the first 15 seconds of a fight (and, even then, Perfect Form lets you get those 3 stacks in 3 GCDs if you want). I realize you might not be fond of math and this is *exactly* what I'm talking about, but that's what you have to deal with.

My reasoning is if you stacked Featherfoot with its ability to guarantee the first hit to be evaded you'd be hurting the value of a 95% evasion rate (with 3 stacks of greased lightning).

Actually, you'd be increasing the value of it. Featherfoot with just GL would be a 31.25% reduction in damage dealt (1 - (1 - (.05 + .15 + .25)) / (1 - (.05 + .15))). Featherfoot with Inner Calm would be a *100* decrease in damage dealt. The more evasion you get, the more valuable it becomes on a comparative basis. It works the same for *any* additive mitigation mechanism.

Yes, I know increasing an ability to a value instead of by a value has diminishing returns as we get stronger gear and higher levels. However, with the current system of working in tiers it could easily be made so this is the only way to achieve 50%. I don't realistically see hitting 50% through gear and leveling for a very long time at which point the skill could be revised.

Then what's the point of setting it to a value rather than just having it provide a static benefit so that you *don't* have to change it at a later date? Setting it to a given value rather than having it increased *by* a given amount is just kind of arbitrary and pointless, since you're basically asking for it to have to be reevaluated at a later date.

If Faith just reduced damage taken where would be the uniqueness to the ability?

The only reason you'd want to separate +hp from +healing is if you want to increase eHP and mean mitigation separately. By increasing them by the same amount, you're not accomplishing *anything* that makes using that given mechanic have purpose. If you're going to have them separated, actually use the only reason you'd want to split them up: have it increase healing or hp by more than the other.

Also, the biggest problem with Faith is its confused identity. 60 sec duration on a 180 sec CD with a *really* weak effect amounts to an ability that has no real purpose. CDs are meant to mitigate burst damage. A CD like Faith, with a long CD, very long duration, and almost laughably low magnitude of effect is pretty much worthless because it doesn't have a purpose. If you want it to be used regularly, put it on a 30 sec or so CD and give it a 4-6 second duration with a strong effect for that time frame. If you want it to be an actual CD, shorten the duration and crank the hell out of the benefits.

The design of TMP is to have some aspects of PLD (mitigation) and some aspects of WAR (healing, HP) while still being its own identity through the use of parrying and preventing status ailments.

The issue is that you're not really having it be all that mechanically differentiated from PLD: you're providing a stronger version of Shield Oath and simply replacing shield based effects with parry based effects. WAR and PLD are *already* close enough that you can't create a compromise tank without getting *too* close to either. It doesn't help that you're not really differentiating the way that the class mitigates damage from the playstyle model of the PLD: WAR is different because it manages Wrath stacks; your Templar is still just CDs and passive stances. It's just a PLD with a different weapon and some slight tweaks to CDs. You're not even giving them appreciable combo options since Impulse Drive is still going to have the positional requirement.

Tanks are not defined by whether they use +healing and +hp or straight up DR. They're defined by the play mechanisms they use to accomplish their goals. WAR is not about self-healing, high hp, and increased healing received; WAR is about Wrath stack maintenance/generation. PLD is not about simple damage reduction; PLD is about constant, passive benefits with a powerful CD suite. Your TMP is about constant, passive benefits with a powerful CD suite (Keen Flurry with your changes is guaranteed 25%+ mitigation for 20 secs every 90; Blood for Blood is 25% DR with 25% uptime; Bonecrusher is a slightly weakened version of Hallowed Ground that I, honestly, think is more complicated than it really needs to be). You're not making TMP a unique tank; you're just making it a different kind of PLD.

The increased rate of parrying still doesn't surpass the PLD's rate of combined block and parry chance.

Yes, it does. Assuming a baseline 20% parry chance, 20% parry value, 20% block chance, and 25% block value, a PLD would manage 8.2% mitigation (((1 - .2) * .2) * .2 + .2 * .25) whereas a TMP with your buff would get 10% ((.2 + .2) * (.2 + .05)). The reasons for this are twofold: block chance and parry chance are not additive and you're increasing the value of all of the TMP's successful parries to the same value of the PLD's block. You're giving TMP 22% higher mitigation from parry than a PLD gets out of block and parry together.

This will make TMP the king of parrying but still not as good at total mitigation as a PLD or as good at self-healing/HP buffing as a WAR but a happy medium with its own role to fill in avoiding status ailments so the healers can focus more on curing them instead of cleansing them which does add up in some fights.

Your passive buff *already* gives TMP the same eHP as WAR and I've *shown* that you'd be giving better mean mitigation than a PLD thanks to that benefit you're providing to the tank stance. Since PLD and WAR are getting effectively identical mean mitigation in 2.1, you're most *definitely* making TMP stronger than WAR or PLD as far as passive/constant mitigation is concerned.

Then why is it they show no variance in HP levels dropped when you hit them?

You're using the term incorrectly. A drain is any effect that converts damage dealt into healing received. Bloodbath converts all of your attacks into 25% drains. Inner Beast is a 300% drain and Storm's Path is a 50% drain. "Drain" should not mean "deals additional damage that turns into healing on a 1:1 basis". If it *did*, it would be a term with an overly complicated definition for what it does that is both impractical and inflexible for what it could be used for since you're effectively requiring than any effect use it be both a damage increase *and* a self healing mechanic with an unmodifiable rate of conversion. Of course, we're discussing a term that doesn't actually exist in game (notice that *every single* "drain" effect that exists is actually just "converts X% of damage into hp") so semantic argument is completely and utterly pointless, especially when there's already an existing mechanic that does *exactly* what you think drain does.

The Gigas Overpower animation is actually just about identical to mine only he's using a 1 handed axe.

"Just about identical" is not the same as "identical". Where animations are concerned, "just about" is the exact same as "new animation", especially when you're dealing with a new skeleton with drastically different ratios, different grips, and different stance. Honestly, I wouldn't say that they're "just about identical", either. They're *similar* but it's a far cry from "just about identical" given the grip, stance, etc.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

Here's some quick ideas for new classes. I not saying they ALL should be added (or that they are all good ideas).

30MRD/15ACN = Beastmaster

Marauder dps option. A melee pet class. Still uses axes.

30GLD/15THM = Dark Knight

Gladiator's dps option. Uses 2h swords, cannot use shields. As far as the game is concerned, a sword is a sword and a shield is a shield,
but just put class restrictions on them the way books are restricted by class SCH/SMN.

Also, the "Soul of the Dark Knight" job crystal would have an effect that grants INT equal to the amount of STR the DRK has. This way
THM cross-class abilities and dark spells could be used.

30CNJ/15LNC = Geomancer

Conjurer's dps option. Fits well with the current "elementalist" theme of conjurer class. Uses 2h bo staff.

30THief/15PGL = Ninja

Dps class. Job abilities use stealth.

30THief/15THM = Red Mage

Primarily a melee class. Uses THM & CNJ cross-class abilities. Job abilities include Fire2 and Ice1. No Astral Fire or Umbral Ice.

30LNC/15GLD = Samurai

A third tank class. Slightly better avoidance than GLD/WAR, with slightly less Mitigation. Uses LNC armor and katanas.
The game would technically view katanas as spears, but they would all be class restricted to SAM so that LNC could never use them.

30PGL/15CNJ or 15 ACN = Shaman

A third healer class. Uses "Fists of Water" stance (cannot be used with other "Fists" stances) which reduces damage output, but heals the party based on a % of the damage inflicted. Healing abilities based on base Pugilist abilities and Couerl/Opo-Opo/Raptor stances.
Shaman Soul Crystal would grant Mind equal to the Shaman's STR.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

• I like the idea of a Samurai tank better than Templar, because Templar is too similar to Paladin imo.
• Sadly, I dont think Time Mage will be viable without Haste/Slow/Comet, and I just dont see them being added to this game.
• I figured Beastmaster would be nice for melee who want a pet class option. But I do like the idea of a dual-axe-weilding Berserker class as well.
• Thief/Ninja needs to be in this game!

[MartaDemireux]

• I like the idea of a Samurai tank better than Templar, because Templar is too similar to Paladin imo.
• Sadly, I dont think Time Mage will be viable without Haste/Slow/Comet, and I just dont see them being added to this game.

• They could both be tanks.
• THM gets Slow, Comet is the caster LB. Haste won't make it in because Yoshi says he hates it.

[Tzain]

• They could both be tanks.
• THM gets Slow, Comet is the caster LB. Haste won't make it in because Yoshi says he hates it.

What if Haste was like the Bard MP regen song but affecting TP regen as well? It essentially arrives at the same point as Haste, letting you do more things faster without actually speeding things up.

30GLD/15THM = Dark Knight

Gladiator's dps option. Uses 2h swords, cannot use shields. As far as the game is concerned, a sword is a sword and a shield is a shield,
but just put class restrictions on them the way books are restricted by class SCH/SMN.

Also, the "Soul of the Dark Knight" job crystal would have an effect that grants INT equal to the amount of STR the DRK has. This way
THM cross-class abilities and dark spells could be used.

30LNC/15GLD = Samurai

A third tank class. Slightly better avoidance than GLD/WAR, with slightly less Mitigation. Uses LNC armor and katanas.
The game would technically view katanas as spears, but they would all be class restricted to SAM so that LNC could never use them.

It just seems like a waste of a perfectly good Class option to go this route. You could just as easily go Swordsman (class) which uses two handed swords and then go Samurai and Dark Knight for jobs? I would assume by the time this stuff happens you'd have vanity slots, so it's really just a matter of maintaining the Katana skin on your chosen weapon (if it's not a katana already)

Actually, wasn't the class names just a thing added by the westernization team? I remember hearing the original Japanese names for classes weren't Gladiator, it was "Sword", and Marauder was simply "Axe". That's old V1.0 info, but I'm curious if it's still the case?

[MartaDemireux]

What if Haste was like the Bard MP regen song but affecting TP regen as well? It essentially arrives at the same point as Haste, letting you do more things faster without actually speeding things up.

I could see that working but it would have to have a drawback of some sort, like long recast time. BRD Paeon restores TP but not to the singing BRD and reduces the singing BRD's DPS by 20%.

Actually, wasn't the class names just a thing added by the westernization team? I remember hearing the original Japanese names for classes weren't Gladiator, it was "Sword", and Marauder was simply "Axe".

Sorth of, the Japanese class names are based mostly on their weapon type/skillset. Literally:
Sword Skill Specialist (GLA) (can alternately be read as a Gladiator or a Fencing specialist leading to relatively ambiguous class name so I stick with convention calling it Sword Skill Specialist)
Axe Skill Specialist (MRD)
Spear Skill Specialist (LNC)
Fight/Grappling Specialist (PGL)
Bow Skill Specialist (ARC)
Hex Specialist (THM)
Illusion Specialist (CNJ)
Tomoe Grafter Specialist (ACN) (a tomoe is a Japanese abstract shape that, the class name implies it draws geometric shapes to call forth its magic).

The names were changed for the western world because Gladiator sounds much more appealing to the western player than Sword Specialist.

To further expand, their Japanese descriptions state that:

GLA: Main weapon is a wide variety of the "Sword" (Mention of shields in order to "fight to charm" (tank) but does not specify only being able to use 1-handed swords like the English translation does)
MRD: Main weapon is "Both Hand Hatchet/Axe" (basically greataxe/two-handed axe so after reading this new description I guess they can't dual-wield hatchets as a 2nd job, also mentions them being sea pirates)
LNC: Main weapon is "Both Hand Spear" (Lances/Spears like we have so a shield option is out. Mentions it being originated in Ala Mihgo as a hunting method)
PGL: Main weapon is "Fighting Arms/Melee Weapon" (also mentions the art of self-defense so a tanking job could lead out of it)
ARC: Main weapon is "Bow" (probably the most boring description of them all, mentions AoE mechanics when you get better at it and originated from Miqo'te)
THM: Uses magic by calling upon the aether within their mind. Must use a "magic scepter-like instrument" fitted with a rosary (gem) called literally "Curse Tool" (absolutely no mention of the elements of Fire, Ice, Thunder)
CNJ: Uses elements of Earth, wind, water by calling upon them from the aether around them. Must use a "magic wand-like instrument" made of natural objects called literally "Illusion Tool" (does not specify wood which accounts for primal weapons)
ACN: Manipulates Tomoe (abstract shapes) to manipulate a familiar (spirit). Uses geometry and arithmetic to draw unique "Magic/Evil/Demon Crest" in their "Magic/Sorcery/Demon Book" (Also mentions calling forth Carbuncle with the crests)