Fencer: Red Mage and Mystic Knight Proposal

[TouchandFeel]

Most monsters actually have some form of elemental attack even though it's not all that obvious. A good example is an Eft's Bog Bomb. It looks like any normal monster attack but its actually dealing earth damage. Kind of tempted to keep my eyes peeled more now for other such monsters.

Using MP as a resource in that manner is hard to balance. You'd likely end up either increasing effective HP by a large amount, making it harder for a healer to cure you as they could only help your HP and/or being overpowered with 2 BRDs rotating Ballad on you. It's an interesting idea and I'm not saying SE couldn't find a way to make it work but it'd be hard I think.

You are right about there being a good number of elemental attacks by monsters, but I still feel that having damage mitigation based around a single damage type may not balance well against the more generalized damage mitigation of the other tanking classes. It would be cool to have abilities that play off of better damage mitigation against magical or elemental attack though.

As far as MP acting as a damage mitigation resource, you are definitely right that it would be more difficult to balance, especially with things like the bard ballads. I still like the idea of managing another resource to provide your mitigation simply for the fact that it could be made to play and feel very different from PLD and WAR. There in lies the challenge, figuring out ways to make such an idea work, but i think it would be worth it

[Tzain]

Kind of an off-thought that just popped in, but it might be more balanced to have a buff that when hit decreases damage taken but costs MP each time it procs.

The reason is this, you have multiple variables and controls in that example which will let you fine tune the ability to be balanced.

For instance, assume it decreases damage by 20%, but costs 20% of your mana each time it activates. During testing you find that it drops far too fast in a multi-mob scenario, so you can drop the usage to 10%. Or you find that the amount of mitigation isn't really enough due to the cost of the MP, so you could bump it up to 40% damage mitigation and test again. Maybe the procs are happening too fast, so you could put an internal delay that the proc can only happen once every 3 seconds.

If you're just using MP as HP as a straight conversion, it's bound to cause issues because it can't be directly modified, you'd have to modify the encounter and then you're affecting all tanks and not just the one with the issue.

[MartaDemireux]

Changes to OP (MYS changes are older from November but forgot to include an update post):

RDM:
Arcane Stance: Clarified that STR swaps with MND and DEX swaps with INT. It was relatively vague prior and wanted to make sure it is read as such to prevent confusion. This ensures the RDM while under this stance will have their highest stat being INT followed by MND to focus as a magical DPS unit while being able to toss out an emergency Cure or two.

MYS:
Ward: In addition to previous effects "Spike" damage will heal the user's HP, "Enspell" damage will heal the user's MP.
Sword Magic: Changed from the tanking stance to the DPS stance. Creates an Enspell of current harnessed element to deal additional damage which consumes MP.
Shield Magic: New tanking stance. Inspired by Tzain's idea of MP cost to decrease damage taken. Instead the buff decreases damage taken and the MP consumption is used to generate elemental spikes which increase enmity.
Memento Mori: Removed.
Runic: Enspell is no longer consumed but instead the harnessed element is. Reason being the inclusion of Sword Magic as the DPS stance.

[XanderOlivieri]

The thing I have the hardest time swallowing is the Red Mage is not a Magic based character. Your Red Mage is nothing more than a glorified Swordsman with Elemental Sword Skills. The Red Mage would have to force Cross Class skills and two of the skills would have to be added to the Cross Class selection, one re-added and one added. If this is the example of what we have to look forward to, then I'm hoping than the Red Mage is a class and not a job so its properly aligned to be a Mage as its name intends it to be.

Red Mage can easily work as the hybrid role same as the Arcanist did so its traditional format of the Red Mage from the single player games can work and gives it more options. It can even be a higher powered version of the Arcanist seeing as it wouldn't have DoT management or pets to assist with the damage, but still not able to match Thaumaturge as DPS or Conjurer as Healer. It should have some sword skills, but not an entire repertoire with no real magic.

Fencer idea I love. Won't play it unless its needed to update a Job class for a Magic character as I only play magic classes. Also do not see a cross from Disciple of War Class transforming into a Disciple of Magic Job. A Red Mage should be a Disciple of Magic by namesake alone.

Mystic Knight...OMG...I see it as OP and possibly needed XD



Thinking about it more since my last post. Lore wise, this may not make a lot of sense with basic principles. Unless the Red Mage is reconstructed to be a Magic Fencer, which is trampling the original purpose of the Red Mage, the lore focusing around it becomes a bit skewered. Warrior to Mage switches are somewhat hard as you have a physical oriented class changing into a Magic oriented Job. Even if you change the way their skills work, changing the overall structure of the way they battle is completely different from changing their roles. Mind and Intelligence is an easier substitution as they are both Magic stats and the way SE is handling cross role Jobs oriented classes like the Arcanist, is you HAVE to choose. When you go into a physical oriented class who needs Strength and or Vitality, you are playing in a different pool as one that requires Int, Mind and Piety. Magic Fencer in placement to Red Mage seems a more appropriate relationship for a Physical class who uses Magic to augment their Sword Skills.

Kinda like that guy from Braverly Default who keeps changing the attribute of his Sword using spells to increase his Sword Skill damage. I see Red Mage being a Disciple of Magic as its original intent. Even FFXI had it as a Magic based Job Class. Using the Arcanist as an example, the Red Mage can still work as intended as a Class, or branch into a Job from an existing DoM Class and gain access to both of their Class skills while focusing on the traits of the base. Like if CJN were the base, made into DPS, gain access to THM's spells plus their added spells and CJN's Cleric Stance, it would be a capable DPS from a Healer base. Based on how you develop it, it can become a capable healer as well if it is made into one of the Hybrid Roles and isn't penalized for splitting focus like Arcanist is, even if exactly like Arcanist but in Job form, it would be fairly decent but will lose the ability to use swords and daggers as the trade off.

A new DoM Base class other than the fencer would be pretty good choice though.

[MartaDemireux]

The reason I have them being melee focused is due to their history throughout the franchise of being a sword user. If you look at all of its appearances in the franchise its repertoire of weaponry consisted mainly of swords/daggers in all but XII:IZJS greatswords. Also, while it is its own game in the franchise, FFXI does officially describe the RDM as a "Fighter-mage."

Since RDM historically can't gain the higher levels of magic I feel it wouldn't be a good fit to come off of THM or CNJ. If Cure III, Fire III, Thunder III, Blizzard III, Aero II and Stone II are the current highest tiers of magic, I don't feel RDM should get access to them. This is why I chose to give them the cross-class skills from CNJ and THM that I did. This way they stay true to being able to cast all the lower tier magic spells while not performing at the same level as the BLM or WHM. They still perform the skills with a certain level of proficiency though while under the effects of Arcane Stance; it completely swaps their STR>MND and DEX>INT. With this stance up they can toss out a Cure/Aero/Stone for about the same as a WHM or a Fire/Thunder/Blizzard for about the same as a BLM (without utilizing Astral Fire/Umbral Ice). Arcane Stance also gives them a large chunk of spell speed so they should be casting faster than a WHM or BLM but slightly weaker.

Historically the lower tiers of magic included most if not all of the enfeebling magic as well which is why I am having RDM's attacks (via FNC) produce enfeebling effects. By having their main combo's enfeeble the enemy this frees up other classes from using their abilities and can focus on raising their DPS. This makes my RDM similar to a BRD in that it is a supporting DPS. This is why I gave them the healing LB, to again give them access to healing in a pinch. I'm considering making their enfeebling attacks magic attacks while under Arcane Stance though to further foster a choice of going pure caster.

I did however give them 2 magic attacks for their job abilities, including one that combos with their sword skills. My vision for the RDM is to allow them to weave magic attacks within their physical attacks as well as being able to focus entirely on one or the other if they choose/the situation demands it. That was the idea behind Saboteur - to allow the enfeebles from their main combos to stay doubly long so that they can focus on standing out of harms way and send out some fast and powerful nukes.

Even though they've mentioned the possibility of a hybrid role being incorporated into the game this is designed under the current trinity system. In a trinity system a Red Mage that stays true to the franchise's history would have to be a DPS. RDM should be able to have access to Cure and have it be at a useful potency but not be able to main heal a group. This would work similar to how SMN can cure with Physick but it's not going to be very potent.

Ideally SE should have created a system in which classic jobs were used even as the base class but gave even the class it's own uniqueness as well (and disregard the weapon = class/job idea). Such as RDM30 unlocking BLM and WHM quests to specialize in healing or nuking while still giving RDM it's own quest line at 30 as well to get RDM AF and special abilities only it can use like Dualcast. Perhaps replacing some skills entirely when switching jobs, like replacing a Blind spell with Fire II for the BLM or Cure II for the WHM. Or give WAR the PLD and DRK jobs while still being able to tank in its own way differently than PLD (as PLD would gain shields) and DRK being able to DPS. But that's for another time and another thread.

[XanderOlivieri]

The reason I have them being melee focused is due to their history throughout the franchise of being a sword user. If you look at all of its appearances in the franchise its repertoire of weaponry consisted mainly of swords/daggers in all but XII:IZJS greatswords. Also, while it is its own game in the franchise, FFXI does officially describe the RDM as a "Fighter-mage."

Appearance isn’t something to properly go on. The Red Mage has never been known for physical finesse. In fact they are very poor at being capable physical fighters when compared to other physical fighters. They have always been Magic based classes who back up their lack of mastery with adequate skills in physical combat and the ability to equip thicker armor to their more than squishy magical bretheren.

Since RDM historically can't gain the higher levels of magic I feel it wouldn't be a good fit to come off of THM or CNJ. If Cure III, Fire III, Thunder III, Blizzard III, Aero II and Stone II are the current highest tiers of magic, I don't feel RDM should get access to them. This is why I chose to give them the cross-class skills from CNJ and THM that I did. This way they stay true to being able to cast all the lower tier magic spells while not performing at the same level as the BLM or WHM. They still perform the skills with a certain level of proficiency though while under the effects of Arcane Stance; it completely swaps their STR>MND and DEX>INT. With this stance up they can toss out a Cure/Aero/Stone for about the same as a WHM or a Fire/Thunder/Blizzard for about the same as a BLM (without utilizing Astral Fire/Umbral Ice). Arcane Stance also gives them a large chunk of spell speed so they should be casting faster than a WHM or BLM but slightly weaker.

The highest level spells would be those used by the Black and White Mage jobs. Those are spells so powerful that the class that relates to them cannot harness them. Red Mage wouldn’t get full effect of THM skills, as no they wouldn’t have access to Astral and Umbral skills just like the Arcanist and Summoner cannot use Umbral Ice while using Ice 2. The supplemented focus on Cross Class skills is fairly crippling for the Red Mage who should be able to do what you suggested innately.

Historically the lower tiers of magic included most if not all of the enfeebling magic as well which is why I am having RDM's attacks (via FNC) produce enfeebling effects. By having their main combo's enfeeble the enemy this frees up other classes from using their abilities and can focus on raising their DPS. This makes my RDM similar to a BRD in that it is a supporting DPS. This is why I gave them the healing LB, to again give them access to healing in a pinch. I'm considering making their enfeebling attacks magic attacks while under Arcane Stance though to further foster a choice of going pure caster.

If you look at the Arcanist’s repertoire of spells, they are almost all Enfeebling skills by their own right as well as Damage over Time skills. Virus weakens offensive and defensive aspects of the opponent, Miasma inflicts disease which slows the opponent, lowering the attack rate. Shadow Flare also slows the opponent while within the circle. Currently Arcanist is more of a Red Mage than anything minus the ability to wield swords and decent armor.

I did however give them 2 magic attacks for their job abilities, including one that combos with their sword skills. My vision for the RDM is to allow them to weave magic attacks within their physical attacks as well as being able to focus entirely on one or the other if they choose/the situation demands it. That was the idea behind Saboteur - to allow the enfeebles from their main combos to stay doubly long so that they can focus on standing out of harms way and send out some fast and powerful nukes.

Your vision, while it IS indeed a beautifully done one, is not magic. Invoking magic through use of a Medium such as a sword makes the Magic a Sword Skill. You have a Magic Swordsman which is not a Mage. Your version of the Red Mage is as much a Disciple of Magic as the Paladin who wields Holy Magic through the use of his sword and shield bearing skills. The Paladin is another Magic Swordsman, a Swordsman who uses Magic to enhance their sword skills to increase the power. This however is not a Mage ability, it is a Sword Skill. Which is why I said yours is more a Magic Fencer than a Red Mage.

Even though they've mentioned the possibility of a hybrid role being incorporated into the game this is designed under the current trinity system. In a trinity system a Red Mage that stays true to the franchise's history would have to be a DPS. RDM should be able to have access to Cure and have it be at a useful potency but not be able to main heal a group. This would work similar to how SMN can cure with Physick but it's not going to be very potent.

Ideally SE should have created a system in which classic jobs were used even as the base class but gave even the class it's own uniqueness as well (and disregard the weapon = class/job idea). Such as RDM30 unlocking BLM and WHM quests to specialize in healing or nuking while still giving RDM it's own quest line at 30 as well to get RDM AF and special abilities only it can use like Dualcast. Perhaps replacing some skills entirely when switching jobs, like replacing a Blind spell with Fire II for the BLM or Cure II for the WHM. Or give WAR the PLD and DRK jobs while still being able to tank in its own way differently than PLD (as PLD would gain shields) and DRK being able to DPS. But that's for another time and another thread.

That could depend on your iteration of a classic class. Gladiator is a reoccurring class and is the base class. Its not an iconic class, but it is a reoccurring class through the Final Fantasy series. Archer is also an Iconic class type used as a base class. Lancer and Dragoon can be interchangeable as a Dragoon has almost always been a special rank within the knighthood. Traditionally, the Dragoon is still different than what we currently have but still functions with the same basic principle. Those that didn’t attain the rank of Dragoon were Lance wielding Knights, mostly called Knights still. Lancer is just an easier way to reference them. Conjurer is also one of the classes from FFIII, so it has a bit of iconic background, though its original use was as a Summoner (Evoker). I would guess, that this is the main reason why the person who trains you in the lost arts of Summoning is a Conjurer. Also despite the lack of use of the other elements, Conjurers by lore are also attuned to using those types of elements. They are supposed to be able to borrow the power of all the elements, they focus on Air, Water (which is traditionally a Black Mage element), and Earth (another black mage element), because of their relationship to healing and protection.

Your work was really well done. My issue is with the name sake and lack of actual relationship. Yours is a glorified Magic Swordsman who hides under the name Red Mage and isn’t a Mage in its own right. Red Mages were still magic first, physical capabilities second.

[DarkStar]

Just thought I'd drop my two cents here, but Xander, you obviously never used a Red Mage in Final Fantasy I. In that game, it could learn Temper (Self-only damage boost), and either it or a Black Mage could cast Haste on anyone in the party. With those two buffs, and considering that Temper stacked, a Red Mage could hit about as hard as a Fighter. On top of that, they could equip the Masamune, which was the second best sword in the game, after the Excalibur, which only a Knight (upgraded Fighter) could equip. As such, while a Red Mage isn't as effective at the role of physical damage dealer as a Black Belt or a Fighter, it could still hold its own, and STILL provide decent magical support.


Of course, FFXIV being an MMO, some sacrifices have to be made. However, it should not be forgotten that the original implementation of Red Mage, way back in the first FF, was someone who could fight on the front lines better than any mage, at the cost of not having access to the top-tier spells. In short, I really like MartaDemireux's version of Red Mage under the current "Trinity" system. If they ever do implement a Hybrid role, I can definitely see Red Mage turning up with some more dedicated magic. However, as it currently stands, if the official implementation of Red Mage is anything like this, I'd so totally play it.

Well, I'd still prefer my idea over this one, but then again, I'm just biased towards my own theoretical class-jobs. >w<;;

[XanderOlivieri]

I did use Red Mage in Final Fantasy 1. I preferred the use over both sets of spells over mastery of the one. I even did the Red Mage challenge to use nothing but Red Mages in the game. Temper is also not a self-cast skill so if you use that skill on any of the physical classes, they easily still outclass them. The need for the boost only helps highlight my issue. They needed the combination to hit as hard as a natural hit from a melee character.

A Red Mage is a character who focuses of both sets of offensive and defensive spells. They have part of a trade off of not being able to fully utilize the maximum spell levels as well as have lower than average stats for their character for use of Physical Weapons and better defensive armor. They could be of more use than either a Black Mage and White Mage when they ran out of MP, but while MP was intact and fine, they weren't that great to have along if not just to have extra casts of the lower level spells.

The version in here is a Spell Fencer. (Which is apparently a Mystic Knight). The Role of a Red Mage is to use Magic, otherwise they wouldn't be called Red Mages. They'd be Red Swordsmen or Magic Swordsmen. A Magic Oriented one would still work with the current system. Arcanist already is everything that the Red Mage is supposed to be. It works perfectly fine and a Red Mage based class could actually be made to out damage an Arcanist in raw damage from spells, but still not be as effective as a Thaumaturge or Conjurer when it comes to DPS and Healing. As a Job it can still work as a more balanced version of Scholar and Summoner who split the potential of the Arcanist into two specific Roles. Again, it can do better than both in respective fields and be a DPS support role similar to a Bard if implemented before Hybrid Roles poke their heads out. It being a more well rounded class, but outclassed by others in specific fields can still make them a center of focus as they can cover more support. They out DPS Summoner without the Summoner's Pet being added in and can out heal the Scholar without taking the Scholar's pet into the equation, but like with Summoner and Scholar, it wouldn't be able to outdo Raw DPS potential that the Black Mage has, maybe by being more limited to single target spells while not having access to as wide a range of AoE Spells. And can't be as potent a single target healer or as potent as a Wide area healer.

Add Enfeebling spells that are better than the Arcanist's spells and you have a pretty mean mage ready for battle. It be as solo'able as the Arcanist is and more party friendly than Arcanists. This wouldn't outshine the Arcanist too much as they still have Pets to average out the damage and heal ratio.

Add Refresh from FFXI and the Red Mage can replace the Bards as MP support. I'd like a copy of FFXI's Red Mage who was spell oriented from what I've seen but still capable of fighting on the front lines with the other DPS.

Its not his idea that bugs me, its the name.

I would like to see his rendition appear in the game, just not for the Red Mage.

[MartaDemireux]

But yet my RDM does have the ability to focus on casting from a distance (or up close)... so I'm not sure what exactly your concern is. If it is that it doesn't gain the use of nukes or cures naturally and only through cross class abilities then I have to present PLD as a counter to your argument. Historically PLD has always received white magic natively but in XIV it only can access it via cross-classing from CNJ. This is no different than a RDM only having access to Fire/Thunder/Blizzard/Aero/Stone/Cure from cross-classing.

The swords are also not just for appearances. They have stats on them that benefit the magical side of the mage. In FFIII the 2 best weapons a RDM could equip gave +15 and +5 to all stats (Ultima Blade and Excalibur respectively). FFXI their mythic weapon has the highest magic accuracy that they can achieve. In FFTA/FFTA2 they could only equip swords and their swords had magic power on them. FFXII:IZJS even went way out there and made them very proficient in great swords so they could use Ragnarok, Ultima Blade and Save The Queen.

Their armor has also been light/leather armor which is contrary to your idea of a mage. RDM-only armor historically has been light/leather armor. Like the Red Jacket in FFIII and artifact/relic/empyrean armors in FFXI. They could equip cloth gear as well but their iconic, RDM-only armor was not cloth.

In my version they'd obviously have physical stats on the weapons and armor (as stated they'd wear BRD gear) but Arcane Stance (named it that due to instances in the franchise where only the RDM can use Arcane Magic) allows them to swap them for magical stats. They'd then function pretty much like you are wishing them to, only they'd be getting the "iconic" magic from cross-classing (exactly like a PLD does now in XIV). Instead of getting powerful casts like BLM or WHM they're getting weaker casts but much faster (30% base before gear and not counting abilities like Dualcast).

In FFI RDM had equal STR and INT. In the original FFIII it had equal STR/MND/INT. In FFV they had equal stats in both strength and magic. FFXII gave them equal parts magic lore and battle lore. FFTA and FFTA2 gave them equal magic and attack.

So essentially RDM has never been an iconic "mage" by your definition. It's primarily been an equal parts caster as melee. I believe you are thinking of Sage which is the magical variant of the RDM in FFIII. In my version, thanks to Arcane Stance, they follow the history of RDM being equal parts caster and melee.

But in any case, thanks for the compliments all

[XanderOlivieri]

snip

Their physical battle capability was only to supplement their lack of mastery as I've stated in every post before. I said they also make up for it by being able to wear better quality armor and have access to swords. As for FF3, the remake of 3 also corrected the Red Mage to being more Magic oriented than physical. Starting off with average all round and ended with Int and Mind both being higher than their Strength, the Vit also becomes just as high as Int and Mind.

The design for them is Magic Class capable of taking hits and has a better survival ability. Its self sustaining with offensive and defensive magics, can take a hit with armor, and if they should run out of MP, they can still defend themselves better than other Mages. They never focused on one as the Red Mage can be seen as a greedy battler. They want a little bit of everything which killed their chances to master anything they learned. Yes, they can wear armor for added protection which puts them better defensively than other mages. They can use swords and daggers to attack when Magic is not an option for them. Their primary role however, like all magic users was their magic focus. This is not the same as a Paladin. A Paladin is a Magic Swordsman. A swordsman that can utilize the most basic holy spells. Everything else goes to their shield bearing skills or sword skills. They were never mages and have poor magic ability. A Paladin is the reversed of a Red Mage. It is a Swordsman who, through faith, gained the ability to use White Magics. They are still limited. Since they learn at a very late time how to use White Magic, they have poor Magic stats and MP, but still are highly regarded as physical fighters. They are Physical by design and are backed up by heavily limited magic set of usually 2 to 3 spells depending on game play. Early games they have about 8 or 9 due to being able to use up to level 3 White Magics. Red Mage and Paladin are two sides to the same coin, Paladin the heads who is Swordsman who dabbles weakly in Magic, Red Mage is Tails who is a fairly competent Mage who got bored of Magic, never mastered it and started taking up the sword to back up his lack of magical power.

Can still use the Arcanist as the base to create the class for a traditional Red Mage and make it work as the Arcanist essentially is the Red Mage by design. Iconically he's a Magic user who's most note worthy skill is his ability to use both Black and White Magics, albeit weakly, his double cast ability, and the ability to wield a Sword should he run out of MP to do moderately low damage but better than that of his brother spell casters.

And yes, its a pointless opinionated issue. If anything I believe it'll be like your's with the current track record shown. Just pointing it out, that the Red Mage if based like this isn't even a Mage. Its a Magic Swordsman so we'd get a DoW Red Mage that most likely would never cross class magic, especially with the current Cross Class limitations of Aero, Cure, and Blizzard 2 being the only possible spells for them to use as DPS basing off what Summoner can get (minus Aero). They'd have to reopen some cross class skills and I don't see Fire and Thunder being added back because of Summoner. So far majority of the Cross Class skills are the same if the class can use them as the cross class focus. People would run it mostly with Fencer Build and Red Mage skill + what ever bonus they get from a physical cross class if there were any.

I haven't seen more than 2 Cross Class skill selections, though I only have Mage classes unlocked atm. Ruin, Bio, and Virus would work as temporary substitutes, but still leaves a lot to be desired as a Mage.


To the note of Cross Class skills, What, if anything at this point, would you have as Cross Class skills from the Fencer?