Warriors - Rerolls

[ZealHoss]

Says the non-Warrior

There is nothing in the game currently that a Warrior can do that a Paladin can not do better. You don't know what you're talking about. You're not even really at endgame and you honestly know nothing about playing a Warrior.

It's not about expecting the tanks to be the same. It's about expecting them to be roughly equivalent in effectiveness when it comes to their role: Tanking. which they aren't. Not even remotely.

I'm not at end game, seriously? you do realize im on BC right? a couple cm runs and i have my relic +1, so im not sure what your talking about not at end game? Secondly i am in the process of leveling warrior to 50. Warriors do more damage and have alot more aoe capability, you will see bosses in the future where a pld and war are best together not a pld and a pld. I dont need another pld with me i would like a warrior. You dont need 2 chicken scratchers running around, a warrior hits a hell of alot harder.

[Kitru]

You dont need 2 chicken scratchers running around, a warrior hits a hell of alot harder.

No, it doesn't.

[Hachiko]

I'm not at end game, seriously? you do realize im on BC right? a couple cm runs and i have my relic +1, so im not sure what your talking about not at end game? Secondly i am in the process of leveling warrior to 50. Warriors do more damage and have alot more aoe capability, you will see bosses in the future where a pld and war are best together not a pld and a pld. I dont need another pld with me i would like a warrior. You dont need 2 chicken scratchers running around, a warrior hits a hell of alot harder.

So you're in BC with Ifrit weapon and white Jewelry? No Relic? Not even garuda weapon? If you can manage with that kind of gear it should set off some obvious bells. No way a WAR would be able to touch Binding Coil with your level of gear. Hell, they probably would have a hard time with titan in that gear.

"AoE capacity" doesn't matter, considering there isn't a single fight where "aoe" threat matters. And even if there ever is one, a PLD will be better able to survive while tanking it - the paltry 100 damage aoe that WAR can contribute for 140 TP isn't enough to matter anyway.

Also you are wrong on the damage. At best a warrior has a slight advantage (~5-10% depending), and at worst is at a disadvantage (while not tanking a PLD will put out more dmg than a WAR, unless Sword Oath is bugged, in which case WAR will again be ahead by ~2-4%).

[ZealHoss]

So you're in BC with Ifrit weapon and white Jewelry? No Relic? Not even garuda weapon? If you can manage with that kind of gear it should set off some obvious bells. No way a WAR would be able to touch Binding Coil with your level of gear. Hell, they probably would have a hard time with titan in that gear.

Jewelry isnt even close to the upgrade the armors give, should be obvious why i did them first. Why the hell do i want a garuda weapon when i already told you im a few hundred phil stones from relic +1?

Your also saying sword oaths bonus of 50 auto attack dmg makes them do more than a warrior?

[Hachiko]

Jewelry isnt even close to the upgrade the armors give, should be obvious why i did them first. Why the hell do i want a garuda weapon when i already told you im a few hundred phil stones from relic +1?

Your also saying sword oaths bonus of 50 auto attack dmg makes them do more than a warrior?

And jewelry is a smaller upgrade, but if you're doing coil, or having success with that level of gear on Titan, again, that is pretty telling as far as balance goes.

And yes, Sword Oath's 50 potency attack is enough to put them past WAR, as long as it's not bugged as some people have claimed.

It's actually pretty obvious. A PLD going all out in sword oath will steal aggro from a WAR in defiance on equal gear levels.

With the content that is out at the moment (being very little) yes i do think warrior is best for adds, and i would rather be tanking with a warrior than another paladin any day. Soon enough warriors will be tanking everything, but they are using FF's job system the warrior will never be a paladin, you will most likely just get a buff to leach skills, and probably cross class rampart from gladiator, unless you already have rampart? Even if you all think you suck there is still paladins around that want you guys around, give yourselves more credit.

So wait with the content out at the moment you think WAR are fairly relegated to tanking adds, despite the fact that there is no content out at the moment in which adds actually need to be tanked?

Even if this made a remote modicum of sense, it would mean WAR is only desirable on fights in which adds are present (presumably not 100%) while PLD is desirable on fights in which a boss is present (presumably 100%).

And no, WAR does not have rampart. The best WAR defensive cooldown is Convalescence. Second best is Featherfoot. Third best is Berserk. Fourth best is Awareness. Our class cooldowns are largely ineffective (bloodbath, foresight), which is part of the problem.

[Giantbane]

1. They are clearing all the content available atm.

They *can* clear much of the content available (although there's some question about whether they're actually able to clear the end of bahamut's coil at all).

But that doesn't mean they're necessarily doing as well. If it requires the WAR to have better gear, work harder on using their abilities appropriately AND requires their healers to work harder and play better in order to keep the WAR alive, then I don't think that means they're doing as well. You being in coil with an ifrit weapon and white jewelry is sort of telling. Can a WAR do that?

2. I would much rather have a warrior in my group than another paladin doing no dmg and not tanking, warriors do alot more dmg and can pick up large groups of adds alot easier than i can.

Ignoring whether or not that's true, trying to justify a WAR being better because he's better as makeshift DD seems like a poor justification for a tank class being balanced.

WAR can generate threat on AoE targets better than a PLD as long as they stand relatively still so you can keep them in front of you to spam overpower. Overpower *is* better at generating more threat immediately, but it's not that cut and dry.

1)Overpower has a big wind up, so there's about 1sec between when you hit the button and when the ability comes out. Flash is instant, which is why I often use it to get initial agro on groups in order to set up overpower spam.

2)Switching defiance on/off is not as clean as switching between sword oath/shield oath. Sword/Shield oath is a simple toggle, swap to one and you're immediately ready to go. However, when you switch to defiance, you don't get that extra HP for free. You require healing the instant you switch. You also don't have any wrath stacks, so you need to pop infuriate immediately, which means it's then not available for tanking for another min.

3)WAR is likely to require more healing than the PLD does on the adds. Aside from the PLD's default ability to mitigate dmg, a PLD flash also gets blind so you're probably getting hit less too. So if the adds are at all threatening to the add tank, then the WAR may not be as beneficial because they also have the greater risk of dying.

4)Overpower also eats up *lots* of TP, so the WAR may be TP starved when he goes back to DPS if he needs to overpower spam too much and he will rely on other classes to restore it for him. A PLD can spam flash till OOM and either rely on other classes to restore it *OR* switch to Riot Blade to restore it himself. So the PLD is a lot more self sufficient this way, not to mention off tanking will in no way inhibit his ability to return to the DPS role. Overpower spam might run the WAR out of TP, causing him to potentially take a hit when returning to DPS.

[Blazn]

A PLD going all out in sword oath will steal aggro from a WAR in defiance on equal gear levels.

LOL this guy's obviously a Derp no paladin can keep hate from a warrior. I had a paladin argue this with me once, I let him tank a boss in CM down to half health told him to go all out the entire fight and by the time the mob went from 50% to 35% the paladin hat lost aggro and i had a large gap already established according to the aggro meters. Please know the truth before posting next time.

[Kitru]

LOL this guy's obviously a Derp no paladin can keep hate from a warrior.

Using Sword Oath, no PLD will be able to keep aggro off of a WAR in Defiance, but that's due to the enmity modifiers implicit in the stances. Using Shield Oath, assuming equal gear, a PLD will *easily* be able to outdo a WAR on enmity generation because they get to spam Halone rather than WAR having to splice in Storm's Eye (a WAR *could* manage more threat by just spamming BB, but, at that point, they're dropping their damage to a laughable low level and turning their self-heals, especially Inner Beast, into a complete and utter joke).

Anyone that thinks that WARs are somehow the damage or enmity kings are only exposed to the most idiotic PLDs. Any PLD worth its salt will put out much better numbers ("worth its salt" is predicated upon using Spirits Within and). It's not even theoretical: I've ripped threat off of WARs *numerous* times while playing PLD; I've also done the same on WAR but, if there's a competent PLD that I don't outgear, I'm going to be fighting that PLD the entire time to keep aggro.

I regularly play both PLD and WAR. I know how to play them both *damned* well. PLD *does* generate better enmity. The SE combo *really* eats into your ability to generate. There are a lot of WARs that stick their heads in the sand and forget about that.

[Hachiko]

Using Sword Oath, no PLD will be able to keep aggro off of a WAR in Defiance, but that's due to the enmity modifiers implicit in the stances.

This isn't the case. Try it some time. A PLD in sword oath will pull off of you as a WAR, assuming the PLD is spamming Rage of Halone. Shield Oath / Defiance aren't even remotely close to doubling enmity generation.

[Awake]

I regularly play both PLD and WAR. I know how to play them both *damned* well. PLD *does* generate better enmity. The SE combo *really* eats into your ability to generate. There are a lot of WARs that stick their heads in the sand and forget about that.

A shame we aint on the same server, i would love to see you stealing aggro off me when i am doing 600 BB crits.Cute PLD is cute.