[Discussion] The Pugilist of the Future!

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

WELCOME! To the Pugilist of Tomorrow!

I'm starting this thread for Pugilist enthusiasts to discuss the class as it is currently and what we hope to see it evolve into in the future. It is also a good place for us to discuss possible suggestions that we can make to SE developers in an effort to provide them with feedback for class development.

I will guide the discussion by posting some question, which I will keep updated here in the first post.

Here are my initial questions and some of my opinions:

1. What roles do Pugilists currently fill in party play?

Main/Off Tank:

I think that PUGs only fill the role of main tank in a pinch as MRD and GLD are better main tanks. PUGs do make pretty proficient off tanks, either when there is trouble with the main holding Aggro or taking aggro from less durable party members or when provoking adds that aggro to the group.

Damage Dealer:

Though not as effective as an ARC or LNC, PUGs can deal some damage. I think that they may need some buffs in this area however, or some abilities that will seperate them from the pack.

Problems:

I think the biggest problem on PUG is that they are good at this and that, but not outstanding at anything particular.

2. Do PGL do enough damage?

[Bigglesworth]

I always thought that PGL were good DD tanks. We do have second wind which allows us to stay alive longer when tanking, and some of our big WS's are dependent on evasion which helps us keep hate while tanking also. I really like the class, but I'm kinda biased since my next highest fighting job is 33. I would say pugilist is one of the most well rounded jobs.

an example of this is the other day I ran up to the devlitt NM in Muy Tuy and a R50 lancer was attempting a solo. He had a hauby +2 and all other +1 or +2 gear and he wiped. I finished him up, and then solo'd him again for good measure as a pugilist with no problems.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

I always thought that PGL were good DD tanks. We do have second wind which allows us to stay alive longer when tanking, and some of our big WS's are dependent on evasion which helps us keep hate while tanking also. I really like the class, but I'm kinda biased since my next highest fighting job is 33. I would say pugilist is one of the most well rounded jobs.

an example of this is the other day I ran up to the devlitt NM in Muy Tuy and a R50 lancer was attempting a solo. He had a hauby +2 and all other +1 or +2 gear and he wiped. I finished him up, and then solo'd him again for good measure as a pugilist with no problems.

I agree with you in that we are well rounded. The only possible problem I see with that, is that being so well rounded are we very desirable in a group? When you have the choice between a MRD/GLD as a tank and an ARC/LNC DD, are Pugs going to be left out in the cold? Can we compete with other tanks for Hate? Can we compete with other DDs in terms of damage done?

I don't have any details on these questions. I know there is a parser out there that will record some of the Data and I may do some experiments to see if I can hold hate over another tank.

[Bigglesworth]

I agree with you in that we are well rounded. The only possible problem I see with that, is that being so well rounded are we very desirable in a group? When you have the choice between a MRD/GLD as a tank and an ARC/LNC DD, are Pugs going to be left out in the cold? Can we compete with other tanks for Hate? Can we compete with other DDs in terms of damage done?

I don't have any details on these questions. I know there is a parser out there that will record some of the Data and I may do some experiments to see if I can hold hate over another tank.

All good questions, and the answer becomes more muddles in that all the classes in 14 are thrown in a mixed together. For example for the tanks, do they have Emulate (THM) for the tough NM's? For the ARC/LNC do they have all the pre-WS buffs to camp their spike damage? Are your DD using battle regimens appropriately?

I don't think jobs are discriminated against in the same way they were in 11 when you were forming parties.

[Akuun]

Can we compete with other tanks for Hate?

The answer is Yes!
Pugilists strongest tanking ability is it's hate.
Rips hate off Gladiators equiped with intimidation and aeolion scimitar just by hitting. (with no enmity modifier)
Easily hold hate off of archers.
The only class it sometimes struggles to hold hate off of is mages because of the enmity of dots. (accomplice, taunt, and intimidation, these solve that problem)

[Viridiana]

Yeah, only time I've had hate issues is when the THM was using Accomplice on me. I often find I can move ahead a minion or so on NM fights, because there's no way the party's gonna take hate, even off of the one they've been beating the stuffing out of. Of course, I think my tanking method would work fine for getting aggro on any of the current DOW/DOM classes, so. . .

[Meleena]

Yeah But I didn't pick pugilist cause I wanted to play as Tank (maybe blink tank, but only under conditions).
I was a Monk player in FF11 and I wanted a Monk in this game too, so what should they do IMO is to separate the thief abilities from the Monk abilities on this class.
Pugilist should be strong DD with emphasis on fast DOT damage (spike damage is for other classes), should have many HP but less armor.
I am sure that when the auto attack comes in, we will notice a real difference on the speed that some classes deal damage and I hope that pugilist is gonna be among the fast ones.
After that, give him some kick animations and a 2hour ability that beats the crap out of the target like 100fists and Ill have the class that I enjoy playing again :P

[Akuun]

Yeah But I didn't pick pugilist cause I wanted to play as Tank (maybe blink tank, but only under conditions).
I was a Monk player in FF11 and I wanted a Monk in this game too, so what should they do IMO is to separate the thief abilities from the Monk abilities on this class.
Pugilist should be strong DD with emphasis on fast DOT damage (spike damage is for other classes), should have many HP but less armor.
I am sure that when the auto attack comes in, we will notice a real difference on the speed that some classes deal damage and I hope that pugilist is gonna be among the fast ones.
After that, give him some kick animations and a 2hour ability that beats the crap out of the target like 100fists and Ill have the class that I enjoy playing again :P

Since SE is planning to, make classes more role specific, and planning to add jobs as well (granted nothing has been said beyond this), I think we should wait a bit before we start going on rants about how pugilist isn't monk. I played monk as well, and really enjoyed the job. Would I like asuran fists? hell ya! Would I like to see something like 2hr abilities? for sure and not just for pug. Would I like to see pug be a faster attacker? you bet. But for now too many things are up in the air to even start making suggestions. I think after the dungeons patch we might have a clearer idea of where SE is heading and be more able to help guide those ideas.

[Meleena]

I am not ranting, I like Pugilist, I just don't want him to end up a secondary Tank, I wouldnt want that, I like him cause I like the martial art aspect of the class, so I want to at least see him hit hard and fast :P

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Since SE is planning to, make classes more role specific, and planning to add jobs as well (granted nothing has been said beyond this), I think we should wait a bit before we start going on rants about how pugilist isn't monk. I played monk as well, and really enjoyed the job. Would I like asuran fists? hell ya! Would I like to see something like 2hr abilities? for sure and not just for pug. Would I like to see pug be a faster attacker? you bet. But for now too many things are up in the air to even start making suggestions. I think after the dungeons patch we might have a clearer idea of where SE is heading and be more able to help guide those ideas.

I disagree here. First, I don't think anyone in here is 'ranting' per se, and I did set this thread up to see what PUG players thought of the class. If a suggestion needs to be made, now is the time to do it before the job system is set in its way and harder to change. As a community we need to make sure that SE hears what we want and what we don't like so they can account for that in the planning phase because by the time they reach the point where they are releasing information and coding the changes, it may be too late.

From what I have seen so far, PUGs make pretty good tanks. Maybe 'too' good. Is there an advantage in going with a MRD or GLD tank over a PGL? I think that PGL may be lacking in the AOE tanking area, but that is good. PGL should be good one on one fighters, better than keeping the attention of a whole group of enemies.

Lets turn our attention to DD. Do PGL do enough damage?

Personally what I would like to see is a range of abilities that would let players focus their skill set on what they enjoy more. If you enjoy being a tank, then you could set up your skill bar for tanking and your stats (once they are fixed of course) would reflect that by being higher in CON and DEX for more HP and more EVA. If you wanted to be a better DD, then you could spec yourself for that class with higher STR and DEX for dealing more damage and more specific skills.

The problem I have is that the game as it is doesn't give you any hard choices. I can fill my bar with every 'useful' PGL skill and still have plenty of room to fill it with any other skill I could want. Evasion Up (THM) sure why not. Cure? Hells yeah! Sacrifice too! Plus Raging Strike, Defender, Rampart, Provoke, ect, ect! I love having the freedom of choice, but it lacks any real strategy when allocating skill points and setting my abilities.