So i finished my PLD... After my WAR

[newby]

I think problem is end game dungeons the role of warrior. Example for the titan fight Warrior unnecessary class and risky taken dmg much more healers busy with him or healing group ? or Coil people said 2 Pal much better then warrior.. Soo its ok i do not want to be MT i dont have problem with this but SE must add something for warrior to the dungeon role ! You call warrior offtank but ppl do not need offtank at to moment ...

[xxbodkinxx]

Currently leveling a pally myself. I dont want to be the weak link in my raid. Not the type to be the underperformer and dont plan on starting now. Not to mention I want to be able to swap out tank classes dependiing on the fight anyways down the road when we are closer balanced.

[MomoOG]

I think the problem is that Paladin is too simple of a class. Everyone wanting War to be like Pld just want to dumb down the game. I would much rather they bring Pld to War level. I initially rolled Pld because I like the holy knight archetype and not because it was the "superior" tank. I'm personally considering switching to War because Pld doesn't challenge me and on top of that it doesn't "feel" like a Paladin. Just my personal opinion of course. Some people aren't looking for challenge and just want the path of least resistance and I can understand that.

[CrazyDuck]

Finished my WAR, got Full Darklight, Garuda Weapon.. etc etc Was having fun tanking things for my FC didn't have any issues or complaints about survival/agro.


I finished my PLD on Friday, got the Grand Company Weapon and shield.

Went into Garuda/AK so far with it and...

WAR now feels like a shitty DD with high HP's


But hey! at least they share the Darklight set.


Glad i saved my Myth Seals.

I would have a warrior any day for pulling multiple trash mobs over paladins sucky ability to keep multiple agro,but id defunatly have a paladin for tanking single target boss's, warriors are so good until you get to the boss's and you struggle a bit :P

[WingsofWar]

i have a feeling once PvP hits, WAR is going to be a much better choice tank over PLD. Considering PLD hate generation, stun, and mitigation might be more worthless against larger HP pools and better damage outside of defiance.

[Vanidin]

i have a feeling once PvP hits, WAR is going to be a much better choice tank over PLD. Considering PLD hate generation, stun, and mitigation might be more worthless against larger HP pools and better damage outside of defiance.

Better tank for what... pvp? Since when does pvp require tanks as anything more than a brief distraction until cc is applied? A warrior with defiance on does what.. 5% more damage than a paladin? 5% more at the insignificant dps that tanks do is nothing.

Warriors are a different style of tank, but I hope they do get some help... I'd much rather see them have a self shield as opposed to self healing, something to help with the sheer lack of mitigation.

[Kuvu]

The point of having two classes is for different playstyles and nothing more. They should do the same thing and same job and be just as effective. For DPS classes melee should be doing way more damage then ranged but currently that is not the case and ranged is doing way more then melee and that needs to be corrected. Why you ask is because melee is taking more damage and has a bigger risk and also they have to move from AoEs.

Let me ask you this with that train of thought. Can or does a scholar heal like a white mage? The answer is no. They are good at what they do but I dont think you see scholars hollering because they dont heall like a white mage.

[Nailkita]

Let me ask you this with that train of thought. Can or does a scholar heal like a white mage? The answer is no. They are good at what they do but I dont think you see scholars hollering because they dont heall like a white mage.

Sadly you do, I had to put in big bold letters in my Scholar Guide for my Free Company that "YOU ARE NOT A WHM DON'T HEAL LIKE ONE"

But that is correct, and should be correct, with WHM and SCH healing differently, reactive and proactive respectively. As someone said earlier, it is about changing your healing style when you're dealing with each tank, as a WHM use Stoneskin more often, and don't cancel heals as quickly. Eye for an Eye should be used off cooldown (3minutes ouch but still). Yes it's a little more MP intense, but if you know that it's a warrior, you shouldn't be off guard for spikes, and be prepared to use swiftcast, and have regen up at ALL times.

[Churchill]

I just tank AK without Defiance, just sucks we can't do sub-10m runs anymore.

[Ramsey]

The math is all that really matters here. I've used some simple numbers for clarity's sake:

1000 DPS = 800 DPS to a PLD
1000 DPS = 1000 DPS to a WAR

800 HPS = 800 HPS to a PLD
800 HPS = 920 HPS to a WAR (assuming they have 5 stacks of wrath EVERY heal, in reality it would average out to more like 856 HPS)

Paladin is a more efficient (read: better) tank.


Analysis:

Right now Paladin is better whenever it is necessary. When it's not necessary, Warrior is better. This will always be true as long as warrior deals more damage and requires more healing. This is why you hear stories of people clearing turns in the coil with warriors, yet everyone else is throwing a shit fit about how "bad" warrior is. Choosing a warrior instead of a paladin tips the scales of your raid group, lowering its overall mitigation, making the load heavier on healers, but increasing overall damage, making the runs faster, or lightening the load on DPS checks.

This is also likely why the developers don't see much of a problem with the way warrior performs right now, they don't have the same issues of playing with pugs that don't know what they're doing. Now it is in fact their job to think about these things, and I'm sure they'll continue to analyze the situation. That being said, I do believe there may in fact be a problem in terms of the balance of mitigation lost vs. DPS gained when choosing a WAR over a PLD. I'm curious to see what the numbers look like and will do my own field testing once I have both relics.

But, and this is the most important part, even if the math is off right now, even if they do correct that, (A good place to start would be buffing the healing bonus on Defiance to at least 5% a stack) Paladin will still always be better in an underskilled or undergeared pug, undergeared or underskilled organized group, or when tackling new/unknown content, because PLD will give you more breathing room. (Exception: DPS check fights could see benefit from WAR.)

What does this mean? The community will always see warrior as the inferior tank on content deemed "difficult" and warrior as the superior tank on content deemed "farm-mode." The only possible way this could not be true, is if the two jobs were completely homogenized and had the exact same effective mitigation and DPS. At which point, any differences would be purely cosmetic.

One potential solution is to unbalance the DPS:mitigation equation in favor of warrior, I.E. have warriors do more damage for their mitigation lost than paladins mitigate for their damage lost. This might make the two jobs relatively even in the eyes of the average player, but Paladin would become the inferior job for the end-game elite, except in certain limited capacities.

Edit/Addendum:

I'm really going to have to see some numbers as far as PLD vs WAR dps, because in a vacuum (and admittedly on napkin math) it looks like Paladin might actually win in terms of potency/second. It's hard to take things like berserk into account, so warrior probably comes out on top, but it's going to be only a marginal difference. Thanks to PLD having two skills off the GCD, and Fight or Flight having a lower cooldown than unchained, despite having largely the same effect. It doesn't really matter that warrior has more "do damage buttons" if the GCD applies to all of them. This is unbalanced because paladin's innumerable "take less damage' buttons are all of course, off the GCD, and so are two of their attacks. An increased restoration buff to defiance and putting all wrath expending commands off the GCD might go a long way towards closing the divide.