The anti FFXI job/class comparison thread

[Physic]

Few reasons.

1. Final Fantasy. If you can prove to me that no FF followed the same design ideology, then you'll have a point.

2. Every FF game built off of the previous one or we would still be playing the Warriors of Light storyline and crystals would still be our governing source of life.

3. The latest FF games built off of FFX - i.e the Sphere Grid, 4 games utilized the system in their own way because...as much as this may shock you, it was a good system they decided to use again. You can go as far back and say the Junction system was the predecessor to the sphere grid.

4. Evolving from FFXI would have put this game in a better position. Don't you think the basic search system from XI would have been amazing if they, you know..built off of it? I can go to search, have numerous categories to search from, I can even /sea all (insert) and get results, I can throw a party flag when I want to be found for a party and so on. Stuff that's going to take almost a year to implement into XIV when it should have been done from the start.

5. The linkshell system - The ONLY thing XIV's did right was allow for multiple linkshell chat, everything else was a step back from FFXI, not forward.

The fact both games uses a linkshell system kind of proves while they tried to ignore XI, they still utilize the same features in various ways, but they also took so many steps backwards instead of forward it's ridiculous.



Actually, their original idea was to make the game as familiar as possible to FFXI players so they can create their "XI avatars" in XIV and start anew. They also wanted to ignore XI's existence which, as we know, Square admitted was a mistake since they said they tried too hard to make it not like XI that well we have what we have now.

Ironically, every MMORPG the past few years have literally been a Generic MMORPG - 2, Generic MMORPG - 3 etc, basically the same MMORPG with a different storyline. It's why Rift did well, because it was WoW with FFXI herb and spices.

FF keeps some of the same enemies, and items, but the battle system, and major design things changes with each incarnation, its not really evolving, they are different, none are like a better version of thier predecessor.
FFVII uses materia as the main battle mechanic for skills and spells
everyone can learn anything, chrs uniqueness comes from limit breaks
FFIX
everyone is specific, they have their own skills that only they will learn, and their own unlock abilities
FF3/6 everyone has a basic style, of special ability, and everyone can learn any magic, and summons

there is no unifying theme of the battle and progression systems, there is no evolution, evolution implies things are getting better, or taking the same thing and improving on a facet. They are different systems, with different advantages.

Now how do you prove a negative, its something that cant really be done

[Jennestia]

FF keeps some of the same enemies, and items, but the battle system, and major design things changes with each incarnation, its not really evolving, they are different, none are like a better version of thier predecessor.
FFVII uses materia as the main battle mechanic for skills and spells
everyone can learn anything, chrs uniqueness comes from limit breaks
FFIX
everyone is specific, they have their own skills that only they will learn, and their own unlock abilities
FF3/6 everyone has a basic style, of special ability, and everyone can learn any magic, and summons

there is no unifying theme of the battle and progression systems, there is no evolution, evolution implies things are getting better, or taking the same thing and improving on a facet. They are different systems, with different advantages.

Now how do you prove a negative, its something that cant really be done

FFV's job system was an evolution of FFIII's while Tactics was a different spin on V's. FFVI again had another "equip" system (Relic/Magicite) which also affected stats. FFVII and FFVIII used a similar system for battle in that what materia and junction was equipped pretty much determined your Statistics and Abilities. FFX, X-2, XII and XIII utilized a Sphere grid type system (Dress Spheres, License Board & Gambits and Crystarium), which to my knowledge, the LBG and CR systems were an evolution of the Sphere grid, which originally was fairly limited in the paths you could take even while unlocking new routes.

So it's not on the enemy and item level alone -- Aside the obvious stuff like chocobos being a form of transportation, even that had different variants but generally the same, e.g White/Fat Chocobo was additional storage, black chocobo could fly, gold chocobo as well could fly and progress any terrain etc. Only in FFIX did their mechanic really change, i.e Chocographs and Hot & Cold, which is what they're doing for FFXIV as well (changing mechanics), but throughout all FF games the design ideology was the same -- it was just more blatant in what we call the "Amano Era" of Final Fantasy games.

[Kallera]

FFV's job system was an evolution of FFIII's while Tactics was a different spin on V's. FFVI again had another "equip" system (Relic/Magicite) which also affected stats. FFVII and FFVIII used a similar system for battle in that what materia and junction was equipped pretty much determined your Statistics and Abilities. FFX, X-2, XII and XIII utilized a Sphere grid type system (Dress Spheres, License Board & Gambits and Crystarium), which to my knowledge, the LBG and CR systems were an evolution of the Sphere grid, which originally was fairly limited in the paths you could take even while unlocking new routes.

So it's not on the enemy and item level alone -- Aside the obvious stuff like chocobos being a form of transportation, even that had different variants but generally the same, e.g White/Fat Chocobo was additional storage, black chocobo could fly, gold chocobo as well could fly and progress any terrain etc. Only in FFIX did their mechanic really change, i.e Chocographs and Hot & Cold, which is what they're doing for FFXIV as well (changing mechanics), but throughout all FF games the design ideology was the same -- it was just more blatant in what we call the "Amano Era" of Final Fantasy games.

You're really stretching the term similar if you saying 7 and 8's systems were at all similar, or even 10 and 10-2...and which version of 12 are you referring to?

[Elexia]

You're really stretching the term similar if you saying 7 and 8's systems were at all similar, or even 10 and 10-2...and which version of 12 are you referring to?

It's truly not that hard to see that 10/10-2/12/13 were basically using the same sphere grid concept system, as much as people love to try to disprove things, it's truly not that hard to see. It's like saying FFI, III, IV and V didn't utilize crystals as centralized story mechanic.

As for the VII and VIII thing, both games had something that let you pretty much customize your stats and abilities, the problem with VIII was it was detrimental to level whereas VII it was more worthwhile to level because materia grew in strength (kind of like GFs grew in order to learn more abilities for junctioning.)

It's not that much of a stretch, since before FFXIV, people were always drawing comparisons and going on how the materia system (even though some of the stats were broken, and not in the "overpowered" way)/junction should return for the next MMO, now that XIV is out, people seem to be overly critical about any kind comparisons being drawn even to unrelated offline titles.

[Jennestia]

You're really stretching the term similar if you saying 7 and 8's systems were at all similar, or even 10 and 10-2...and which version of 12 are you referring to?

It's not a stretch since there's only one general definition of similar, and unless I'm mistaken, both systems in 7 and 8 were pretty much determined by your prowess in leveling materia, gfs and drawing magic to junction into stats -- both are a similar form of progression in that regard.

[Arcell]

Clearly defined and unique jobs with specific roles > homogeneous, boring classes that all work the same

Right and well-balanced classes with specific roles that all have a place in a party > cookie-cutter community standards that shun people from groups. XIV doesn't have the first point yet but it's a possibility with the restructuring of the battle content and additions to the armoury system (plus future tweaks)

[Jennestia]

Right and well-balanced classes with specific roles that all have a place in a party > cookie-cutter community standards that shun people from groups.

That's a community issue and the proof is in the pudding:

When PUP in XI became very very strong, there was an immediate surge in PUPs.

When DNC became one of the best soloers, guess which job seen an surge?

When BLU became overpowered (4-8k unbuffed Quad-Conts), guess where everyone flocked that previously abandoned the job?

Balance goes only so far where the community has the final deciding factor -- This wasn't native to FFXI, it existed since the 90s which was long before XI was a concept and it exists now, even on the guild level, e.g you'll be hard pressed to join certain raids unless you're part of a guild -- so what people mistake for design issues are more community problems for example there was nothing wrong with bring a PUP because their maton, even outside of abyssea, can keep up and even out nuke most BLM and SCH.

Though I agree it still should have been Necromancer.

It's truly not that hard to see that 10/10-2/12/13 were basically using the same sphere grid concept system, as much as people love to try to disprove things, it's truly not that hard to see. It's like saying FFI, III, IV and V didn't utilize crystals as centralized story mechanic.

As for the VII and VIII thing, both games had something that let you pretty much customize your stats and abilities, the problem with VIII was it was detrimental to level whereas VII it was more worthwhile to level because materia grew in strength (kind of like GFs grew in order to learn more abilities for junctioning.)

It's not that much of a stretch, since before FFXIV, people were always drawing comparisons and going on how the materia system (even though some of the stats were broken, and not in the "overpowered" way)/junction should return for the next MMO, now that XIV is out, people seem to be overly critical about any kind comparisons being drawn even to unrelated offline titles.

Indeed -- XIV brought out the critic and cynicism in people it seems, since if you look at a lot of FF communities prior to XIV's announcement, it was never a "debate" regarding how similar things were between FF games, hell most debates were on how the next "Cid" would be used.

[Corrderio]

Classes do need to be more unique no doubt, but at the same time I don't want them to crap up the system like they did in XI.

[Physic]

well i dont see a pattern of adapting so i dont see it, but regardless, they are different enough that you have one has no reason to assume that ffxiv should be like ffxi, they could borrow from them=ir previous incarnations, or go original.

And the thing is, imo battle was not the forte of ffxi, niether was progression, so i wouldnt want to copy or evolve those elements.
most non magic users got what 5 or 6 skills? from 1-75? usually more than half of those skills could be used on subjob. weaponskills looked different but were all the same. a couple multihit, a couple elemental, a stunner, a single
thunder was always your most powerful magic damage,
the best thing about it, i would say was the skillchain system. all the rest, was kind of meh.
It has some of the weakest execution of the ffxi jobs in the series, except for thief, i think thief was better in XI than previously. and maybe blue mage, but that was like 5 years later.
The large world, the wealth of things to do, the story after from cop on, all the modes they added like dynamis and nyzul, even sea and sky, thats where most of the real entertainment was, along with working together for some things. And that is what we are really missing here.

[Demacia]

well i dont see a pattern of adapting so i dont see it, but regardless, they are different enough that you have one has no reason to assume that ffxiv should be like ffxi, they could borrow from them=ir previous incarnations, or go original.

And the thing is, imo battle was not the forte of ffxi, niether was progression, so i wouldnt want to copy or evolve those elements.
most non magic users got what 5 or 6 skills? from 1-75? usually more than half of those skills could be used on subjob. weaponskills looked different but were all the same. a couple multihit, a couple elemental, a stunner, a single
thunder was always your most powerful magic damage,
the best thing about it, i would say was the skillchain system. all the rest, was kind of meh.
It has some of the weakest execution of the ffxi jobs in the series, except for thief, i think thief was better in XI than previously. and maybe blue mage, but that was like 5 years later.
The large world, the wealth of things to do, the story after from cop on, all the modes they added like dynamis and nyzul, even sea and sky, thats where most of the real entertainment was, along with working together for some things. And that is what we are really missing here.

I have to disagree there. If anything, progression was one of FFXI's strongest qualities. Not all weapon skills were the same either, as only a few weapons got MP drain, damage based on HP, added effects, 4x damage, etc. I mean you could say "Oh, rampage is 5 hits and so is penta thrust" but the variety in weapon skill properties was pretty large. As for weak execution of jobs, I'd only agree with Warrior and Monk. Boring auto-attack jobs, but the rest are great. Especially the ToAU/WoTG jobs.