Thoughts on Tanking Roles

[Logan1033]

OK this is not to start an arguement over PLD being better than WAR, or WAR being useless (cause they are not.) This is just my thoughts after looking at skills and imagining boss mechanics.

In reference to boss or add tanking I imagine a boss having powerful one-shots that are time delayed to give the healers time to catch up, and a bunch of little adds spawning at random intervals that need to be picked up and burned down.

This setup hasn't really happened yet in game as bosses have been hitting moderately and rapidly in addition to big unavoidables, and the only adds are single target "lieutenants"

Ignoring the AOE threat issue, PLD skills seem better suited to add tanking and WAR seem better for Boss tanking.

WAR have Higher HP to soak those bigger hits and a burst self heal to lessen the strain on the healers, hopefully with enough time between big hits to get back up on wrath stacks.

PLD have an omni-directional Enmity builder that includes a debuff that lessens the chance to be hit (Flash/Blind) as well as defensive CDs so all those adds beating on him dont drop his health immediately if they dont die for 15-30 seconds(decently hard hitting adds with moderate HP would decimate a WAR)

Yes WAR have better threat building skills for groups but thats all.

Not saying each class actually is better in one role or another, just that in the above situation PLD would be better than WAR ignoring PLD aoe threat issues.

Toughts?

[Exrage]

Check my guide sometime, Paladins aren't able to out AOE us nor are they better at mitigating. You want to generalize the classes in a comparison fine, but understand what you're implying.

Paladins don't aggro/DPS/self-heal dance like a warrior does, most of their mitigation and AOE are static and therefore require less actual thought in their execution. Even the FFXIV staff have stated "If you want a challenge, play a warrior." Each fight requires you to custom design a highly complex combo/rotation chain utilizing as many of your CDs effectively as you can- where as the paladin does the same with about half that.

In short no, paladin's are far inferior to the diversity and overall "yeah I got that" that warrior tanks bring to the table- but you won't find a lot of warriors who have mastered that complexity in a duty finder pick-up group and wonder why most end-game teams are leery about a warrior tank that requires someone skilled over a paladin which simply requires someone.

[Rios-Drakoon]

but, you are complet worng sorry to say that.

I know, WAR has "alot" Selfheal, Bloodbath 25%, Storms Path 50%, Inner beast 300%, all that sounds nice... but, ist just a bad joke.

Boss hits you with 1000dmg, do you really think the Healer feels that you have Bloodbath on you and heals yourself for 40-80HP per hit?
Or Stormspath for 100?

Inner BEast wich Need at last 12,5sec to build 5 Stack of Wrath heals you for about 800.

Til Garuda HM Warrior can be Tank for everything, but after taht, Titan HM and also Bahamuts Coil, Healer would like to heal a PLD.

The Biger HP Pool is nice, but the 1500 HP more is only the first few seconds good, after taht, the WAR cost more MP to heal then a PLD.

[Exrage]

Well I'd rather be complet worng than quote incorrect stats, or if those are your self generated numbers you're doing something *seriously* wrong. Inner Beast should be healing for 1200, 1500 with convalescence and 1800+ with maim and storm's eye, and over 2200+ with berserk and unchained- mind you that isn't even a crit or including bloodbath's additional heal on top of it.

Second if you're relying on storm's path in end-game you need to seriously sit in front of a target dummy and check your numbers because there are so many better ways to use that TP than your 200 if you're lucky heal.

You're absolutely right on your HP pool, but if you're 1500 over the paladin and unable to self heal for more than 800 I'd say you need to stop pointing your finger at your class and start pointing it at yourself- you may want to consider reassigning some of those VIT stats into STR.

[Logan1033]

I agree with both of you, as to the current state of the game. PLD AOE is currently weak and mitigation is completely based on good use of CDs( of which they have many and WAR have basically none). Yes, taking a 1000 damage hit every 15 seconds makes WAR a MP liability, and yea Bloodbath is fairly weak.

Again, my point isn't based on the current fights available, but a comment on the skills available to each job and what boss design would fit the in an IDEAL setting.

A WAR tanking a boss that hits for 5k every 30 seconds with maybe 200-300 attacks every few second in between would perfectly fit how the current skills work. IB after every big hit and enough time to regain Wrath for the next burst.

A PLD tanking multiple adds for a short period where their defensive CDs would be most useful. Flash/Blind + Blocking + Bulwark would make a melee group of adds trivial, and Rampart + Sentinal for the non melee.

I'm not saying either class couldn't do the job just as well (in most situations), just inferring what I can from how the skills are described. I'm trying to think like a Dev and imagine how their skills could be used. I get the impression reading around that WAR are thought to be designed as an Off-tank, while PLD main tank the boss. While PLD have better tools for both situations, the skill suggest to me that PLD should be the OT and War the MT.

EDIT: Exrage is correct, Storms Path heal is not worth using cause you lose the Storm's Eye debuff. And IB heal is much bigger than Rios suggested. But his point still stands that WAR are a liability from Titan HM on.

[Rios-Drakoon]

so, i Need to Trigger

the 3er Combo: Heavy Swing, malm, Storms Eye

then

Convalscence
Berserk
Unchained
Infuriate
and then FINALY the Inner Beast.

WoW, that makes sense, to use allllllll this, just to get a good heal... and wait, let me Count the seconds.

so, first we Need 5 Combos

12.5sec
2sec for the 4 Abilities

14,5sec to get one big heal, and i Need to use all this for that? i think thats a Joke.

seriously ...

[Exrage]

A joke says the VIT warrior tank with Ifrit's battle axe and a half-set of darklight. A joke indeed sir, good luck with Bahamut's coil if the concept of managing good self-heals AND damage is a joke to you. For the rest of us it's as simple as breathing- anything more than heavy swing/skull sunder/butcher's block or the concept of macros must be terrifying huh?

[Rios-Drakoon]

half set? go Count again.

Sure i have Legs and Feets from Amdapor and one ring is still low 49 Grey, sorry no dropluck for Tank ring til now, the rest is Darklight.

And i never said ilgo Bahamut Coil, im at Titan atm.

And still, you are right, Warrior can if they want and use alooot CDs heal himself for 2000. but only once all 120sec. because Convalsence has 120sec CD. and because of that, and because we Need alot CDs for doing taht, it a joke.

[Exrage]

Correctly playing your class isn't a joke my friend, it's an expectation. Paladins don't have to dance like we do- but when you get it right the numbers favor us warriors. The proof is in the math, but doing all that while dodging the same crap a paladin does is a statistical nightmare, however again I find myself quoting the developers: "If you want a challenge, play a warrior."

[yuseistar]

it is hard because i do not have a handbook about roles i am just a level 25 gladiator who does not remember where i am going, there is to many huds, you have to click on map every time and turn camera angles to get where your going and people bash every where i go you should remember i never played a game like this before so that is why i say it is hard so be nice to people who never played similar games before ok